UK Storms

[YorkshireBear]

Yep agree with 455 driver. Small vegetation basically grass helps a lot small trees okay. Big trees big no, there impact on the soil with regards water (the evil of landslips) is tremdendous, you can just about get away with it in a drained material like sand but on clay it is a big no no.

 

[Sleepy]

GA seem to be suffering from emu shortages due to flats etc. today, yesterday was bad for dmu stock - not a good advert for half term.

 

[South Western]

If this comes off I'd hate to be on the Dawlish sea wall stretch. Luckily the sea tides are in decline at the moment but it could still be nasty.

I suspect most TOCs will run an emergency timetable just in case on Monday.

As hardly a year goes by without this stretch having to be rebuilt and relaid it would seem not to be worthwhile persisting with the battle against the elements.

It is unfortunate that the line from Exeter St Thomas, via Ide and Bovey Tracey to Newton Abbot was lifted instead of being developed.

This would have provided the necessary alternative route to the dreaded sea wall.

But this is what happens when we allow ourselves to be undermined by self-seeking MP's like Ernest Marples together with his little Pet, the typically IGNORANT accountant Dr. Richard Beeching who confessed on his deathbed to having done Britain a terrible disservice.

It will, of course, take hard, expensive and dangerous work by ENGINEERS to right the wrong thus perpetrated.

 

[jon0844]

Wow.

To be fair to Beeching, I think a lot of people assumed and even hoped the motorcar would end the railway, which would only ever be needed by those who couldn't afford one.

And there were also buses and coaches that could use all the new roads being built.

Hindsight showed more than just people like him how wrong it was.

 

[Rapidash]

The irony being of course that the seawall was fine in the breeze on monday, but the inland line between Totnes and Ivybridge was closed!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hindsight is a deadly sin. Don't let it make you too angry.

 

[yorksrob]

Although those who fail to recognise the mistakes of history are prone to repeat them.

 

[infobleep]

Yet more delays tonight that SWT are not bothering to report. I've asked on twitter but no response yet.

I am on the 7 min delayed service from Surbiton which should have left 18 40. It was ready you leave 18.46 but the 18.44 slow to Woking, which arrived on tome was allowed to leave first. They we have been running slow ever since.

Might as well stopped at a couple of extra stations on route. Only recently passed through Weybridge where we finally were switched to the fast line. I will only be 15 minutes late assuming I even made the 19.14 from Woking.

As for the guard. Well he checked our tickets and i asked when we would be in. He said 19.05. I didn't ask him why we were running late. Finally has made announcement. It's due to earlier signalling problems at Clapham Junction. He claims we were held to allow a faster service to go through. I think that's a lie or he's misinformed. If we were held to allow a faster service through, why wasn't the stopping service held to allow us both through. I sometimes think is passengers know more than the train staff.

I'm only 19 minutes late into Woking. All that and nothing on NRE. On Monday SWT cared. Since then I'm beginning to wonder.

Now the doors have locked and they only then announce the train and it's calling points.

Delays due to weather will get me a refund. Lack of info and delays such as this won't. I'd rather have a refund today than Monday.

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UPDATE: I only made the 19.14 Woking to Portsmouth service because they didn't switch it's platform, preferring it to be delayed behind our train. It may be that it wasn't possible to switch platforms as it stops at West Byfleet and other trains use platform 4 around 19.15. The other week the 18.58 was switched to platform 4 when the 18.52 was running late. Other times they just delay that service. However if we had left before the 18.44 Surbiton to Woking service, I don't believe we would have held up the Portsmouth service in the way we did. We were ready to leave about 1-1.5 minutes before we did as we had to wait for the stopping service to get so far up the line. We only arrived into Woking 1 minute before the 18.44 stopping service itself!

I eventually got a response from SWT's Twitter feed after the event. Apparently the problems were a knock on effect of problems in the Barns area. Now there are two stations between Clapham Junction and Barns so to class the signal problem as being in the Clapham area isn't quite right in my opinion. Either the guard was misinformed or didn't want to admit the real location. Besides the guard should be having help from other people working in South West Trains. Namely those who put out train delay information online.

I pointed out to the person on Twitter that South West Trains did a good job on Monday. I also said that they shouldn't ignore problems such as tonight. They said they would pass on my comments. I don't mind them doing that but only if they act upon them and improve their communication. If they get passed on and ignored then what is the point.

Interestingly my train wasn't the only delayed one. There was one coming from Exeter that was about 25 minutes late. Not sure if a general announcement was made on the Exeter on-line departure board but I doubt it otherwise it would have appeared on the Woking one. Certainly on the train running page on NRE for that actual service there was nothing mentioned. Other trains heading north and south were delayed between 5-20 minutes, again all with no explanation. That's not including those delayed under 5 minutes,

I believe the Barns lines got a general explanation but I wasn't travelling on those lines so didn't pay much attention as I was more interested as to why my train was running late.

 

[455driver]

But this is what happens when we allow ourselves to be undermined by self-seeking MP's like Ernest Marples

The real villian of the piece.

together with his little Pet, the typically IGNORANT accountant Dr. Richard Beeching who confessed on his deathbed to having done Britain a terrible disservice.

He was tasked with a brief and carried it out to the best of his ability, he certainly wasnt the villian as he has been made out to be, he just completed the report but he didnt actually close any Railway lines did he! The report could have been ignored <cough Serpell cough> and all/most/some of the lines listed for closure could have been saved but no the Government of the day and later (of various colours) closed nearly every line listed in that report plus a few others that werent listed in it.
Incidentally, back then who closed the most lines when in office?

Dr Beeching is a scapegoat in the purest sense of the term.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The irony being of course that the seawall was fine in the breeze on monday, but the inland line between Totnes and Ivybridge was closed!

Due to leaves on the line, unfortunately the leaves were still attached to the trees!

The first up service (XC ECS off Laira) hit a rather large tree near Ivybridge which damaged the air pipes on the train.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that others were complicit in the closure catastrophe of the 60‘s.

Marples was obviously the biggest villain, given his undeclared interest in road building (we'll leave aside his interests in tax evasion and other extra curricular pursuits which became known to Lord Denning in the light of the Profumo scandal), and the Labour Government closed more lines (although were it not for Barbra Castle's policies on social railways and PTE's we'd undoubtedly be a lot worse off today)

We should not forget that Beeching was not some disinterested mercenary with no control - he fully believed in the closure programme and regretted not closing more up until his death.

I disagree with the revisionist urge, that seems increasingly to try and vindicate Beeching. There are better lesons to be learnt:

The outright corruption illustrated by Marples.

The ideological inflexibility of refusing to countenance anything other than closures.

The complete lack of planning for the future or foresight that existing towns and settlements would grow and need transport in the future.

The complete lack of consideration of the needs of society in what would become the regional railway area.

I would rather the failures of the Beeching era were rehearsed again and again than the man‘s legacy were sugar coated in some sort of "oh that was how it was back then" revisionism.

These are lessons relevant to society today.

 

[infobleep]

Then thing is, if their is a demand why are the lines not all reopening? Some were not doing well and as much as I love train travel, I feel had to close.

Clearly carting goods by any one other than multi-nationals was not profitable or they would offer such a service today.

The fact is the railways can't complete with the costs of going by road, which must be more flexible and cheaper.

There is an argument to say lines should be kept open for social reasons. Well if that's the case then reopen some of those that closed, purely for social reasons alone and not profitability.

Perhaps what we need are cheaper rolling stock for such lines and cheaper ways of opening social needs only lines. Does a social line need a £1million carriage. Is that type of cost stopping lines from being built?

There are a few links I would reinstate. Lewes to Uckfield; Alton to Winchester. I admit there are heritage lines in the way but Mallig to Fort William runs both types of trains. Some of the Somerset and Dorset lines into Bournemouth would be good to open. What about lines in Cornwall such as the one to Bude? I don't have enough knowledge of the area. The places are certainly popular with tourists.

I think Keswick line in the lakes would surely be worth while from a social point of view. That would also be popular with tourists.

Then there are former stations along the main lines north. Surely they could add additional very slow lines for the places that had become bigger. Places that were they not on an intercity line might still have a service.

Of course some of these places have buses. However if the buses are really that good, why not close more lines and uses buses for those as well, as surely running a bus service is cheaper then running a train service for such rural areas, if social costs are not taking into account.

Personally I don't drive a car or ride a bike so I'm firmly in the camp of providing public transport to enable people to get between places.

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[Monty]

The problem is that most of those lines closed should have never been built in the first place, there was very little strategic planning when it came to Britain's rail network and more often than not lines were built on the cheap to simply move one type of goods from one town to another. It's easy to sit back and say in hindsight Beeching had got it wrong, it would have been impossible to predict how the landscape of our country would change over the next fifty years. It also didn't help that regions intentionally removed traffic from lines they managed to make them appear less profitable than they actually were. The Western Region diverting the S&D's traditional traffic over it's own lines is a very good example of this, the Midland purposely running down the GCR is another.

What should of happened was the government should of put in place some kind of plan to protect trackbeds from development in order to facilitate reopening if it were to become viable in the future. Still it's not the first or last time the governments of this country have been criticised for the lack of forward planning. :roll:

Oh and infobleep never assume that the signaller or control will carry out the most logical action. I've lost count the times I've been held up for slower services and be forced to run late as a result (being held for 12 minutes to wait for a set of empties to go in front of you *cough*). Though to be fair I imagine it would have been manic out there last night and it's lots of trains to keep track off and control. Mistakes can and will happen.

 

[alex17595]

I would lover the SDJR to reopen as an alternate route down to Bournemouth. It could even serve the Glastonbury festival.

some of the old trackbed is now roads although a lot of the bridges are still there.
But speaking off storms there's a lot of flooding around the levels.

 

[yorksrob]

Then thing is, if their is a demand why are the lines not all reopening? Some were not doing well and as much as I love train travel, I feel had to close.

Clearly carting goods by any one other than multi-nationals was not profitable or they would offer such a service today.

The fact is the railways can't complete with the costs of going by road, which must be more flexible and cheaper.

There is an argument to say lines should be kept open for social reasNons. Well if that's the case then reopen some of those that closed, purely for social reasons alone and not profitability.

Perhaps what we need are cheaper rolling stock for such lines and cheaper ways of opening social needs only lines. Does a social line need a £1million carriage. Is that type of cost stopping lines from being built?

There are a few links I would reinstate. Lewes to Uckfield; Alton to Winchester. I admit there are heritage lines in the way but Mallig to Fort William runs both types of trains. Some of the Somerset and Dorset lines into Bournemouth would be good to open. What about lines in Cornwall such as the one to Bude? I don't have enough knowledge of the area. The places are certainly popular with tourists.

I think Keswick line in the lakes would surely be worth while from a social point of view. That would also be popular with tourists.

Then there are former stations along the main lines north. Surely they could add additional very slow lines for the places that had become bigger. Places that were they not on an intercity line might still have a service.

Of course some of these places have buses. However if the buses are really that good, why not close more lines and uses buses for those as well, as surely running a bus service is cheaper then running a train service for such rural areas, if sociRal costs are not taking into account.

Personally I don't drive a car or ride a bike so I'm firmly in the camp of providing public transport to enable people to get between places.

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You‘vre hit the nail on the head in a round about sort of way.


Do you honestly think that there would be any chance of reopening busy routes such as St Erth-St Ives or Settle - Carlisle (both listed by Beeching) had they been closed?

The fact is it costs a lot less to keep a route open than it does to reopen it.




Bustitution has been tried and failed.

The Beeching - Marples legacy should be tought in schools as a warning from history.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem is that most of those lines closed should have never been built in the first place, there was very little strategic planning when it came to Britain's rail network and more often than not lines were built on the cheap to simply move one type of goods from one town to another. It's easy to sit back and say in hindsight Beeching had got it wrong, it would have been impossible to predict how the landscape of our country would change over the next fifty years. It also didn't help that regions intentionally removed traffic from lines they managed to make them appear less profitable than they actually were. The Western Region diverting the S&D's traditional traffic over it's own lines is a very good example of this, the Midland purposely running down the GCR is another

p

But you say that as though there was no controversy or debate at the time. The unpalatable reality is that those governments set their hearts on a bad policy and persued it in the face of well founded criticism. Their assumptions were flawed and were shown to be flawed at the time. It is unfounded to assume that it was a different time and everyone acted with the country‘s best interests at heart and not out of incompetence, blinkered ideology, lack of forward planning and outright corruption.

I also dispute the assumption that most closed lines should never have been built. Some, but not most.

 

[underbank]

The Beeching - Marples legacy should be tought in schools as a warning from history.

As should the prior 10\20 years where equally bad decisions were made in terms of massive amounts of money wasted on new engines and rolling stock that helped cause the crazy losses reported that contributed to the perceived need to reduce the losses, hence reduce the railway network, hence the Beeching report etc.

First we had "standardisation" of the steam fleet, then even before that was completed we had diesels and electric engines and multiple units being built, then even before completed, the lines were closed. The amount of stock that was scrapped just a few years into it's expected useful life of decades was really criminal!

Funnily enough it was forward planning that came undone by a lack of forward planning. One arm not knowing what the other was doing - one group planning to replace all steam traction with diesels/electrics whilst the other arm aware of and planning for the decline in freight and passenger traffic. Neither really knowing (or perhaps not caring) what the other was planning for!

We had whole fleets of "smaller" diesels that were to replace the steam tank engine fleet for small/local freight. But small/local freight was already in massive decline, so the logical answer would have been to keep the steam tanks for a few years longer - but, oh no! can't have that can we? We had the undue haste in having to scrap steam, so for a very short period, we needed the replacement small diesels. Within just a few years, we scrapped the diesels that caused the steamies to be scrapped a few years earlier. Crazy!

Railway history should definitely study the mistakes of the 50s just as much, if not more, than the mistakes of the 60s. We all know about Beeching, but in my opinion, the policy to standardise the steam fleet by building vast numbers of new locos, and then to build engines and rolling stock for lines destined for closure, was just as ill conceived.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes and no. I‘d agree with some of the points about rolling stock (except for the Southern Region, whose rolling stock generally lasted forty years or more and proved to be an excellent investment).

Wasn't one of the reasons for over investment in small freight tht the railway was still hobbled by common carrier legislation ? This should be taught as a poor policy decision from Government.

Also, regarding DMU‘s I don‘t believe that BR ever got close to building all of its planned fleet, so these ended up being transferred to remaining lines anyway.

Infact, I‘m inclined to think that BR probably should have spent more money churning out DMU‘s and less on loco‘s, steam and diesel.

Anyhow, poor spending decisions in the fifties should be taught, but these mistakes were not as fundamentally irreversible as the closure programme, so this should be more heavily taught.

 

[455driver]

Fascinating as this topic is, what has it got to do with the recent storms?

Or are you* saying that Beeching caused the storms as well!

* no one in particular and everyone in general.

 

[infobleep]

Though to be fair I imagine it would have been manic out there last night and it's lots of trains to keep track off and control. Mistakes can and will happen.

Nothing against mistakes but glossing over the facts and not admitting their are problems isn't something I'm so keen on. All they had to do was putting something up on National rail enquiries.

To be fair it is not the first time I've been delayed by movements of other trains and it's very rare. The problem from a passenger point of view is that you never know when it will happen. I hasn't noticed hefore now that the train only switches to the fast line beyond Weybridge, unless that is not normally the case so wasn't expecting to be stuck behind the train. At least we got in first.

Once going to Brighton a stopping service left first. My beef that day was that they should have told us it would leave before our train and get in first. Our train was a non stop service so as we were running late I assumed we would go first to avoid being even further delayed. We were a southern train and the other an FCC service.

Again it wasn't the delay that annoyed me but the lack of info to passengers so we could make an informed choice.


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[infobleep]

Some lines were built for speculation reasons and didn't work out. Let's not forget quiet a few lines closed prior to Beeching. When I was young I use to think everything closed in the 1960s. Later on I got hold of R J Butts directory of opened and closed stations. Then I soon knew that was never the case.

Lines did have to close but I just think not all lines that closed had to close.

I mean why was Bentley considered good enough to keep open but not Four Marks?

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[Oswyntail]

Fascinating as this topic is, what has it got to do with the recent storms?

Or are you* saying that Beeching caused the storms as well!

* no one in particular and everyone in general.

The lack of diversionary routes does put rail at a disadvantage over road (of course, when the diversionary route involves driving down my street, with narrow 90 degree bends at each end you do wonder about the evolutionary status of the truck driver that tried it). However, it should be acknowledged:-

1. Weather tends not to confine itself to particular routes, so it is likely that diversionary routes would also be shut
2. Beeching was employed by the CIA as the assassin on the grassy knoll after they discovered his cold-blooded nature after experimenting on him at Roswell. Oh, he also killed Princess Di.

 

[yorksrob]

Fascinating as this topic is, what has it got to do with the recent storms?
Or are you* saying that Beeching caused the storms as well!

* no one in particular and everyone in general.

Well, someone else brought up the subject and I feel duty bound to stand up against the tide of historical revisionism.

However, now you mention it, I believe that the closure programme contributed towards a vicious circle in which lack of public transport led to an ever increasing dependance on motor transport in this country, and I believe that the resultant increase in the emission of greenhouse gases has contributfed to the increased frequency of severe weather events.

So whilst Beeching didn‘t cause the storm, I would argue that his policies contributed towards it

 

[455driver]

So whilst Beeching didn‘t cause the storm, I would argue that his policies contributed towards it

You made I laff with that post!

 

[infobleep]

But surely it's cows that release the most methane or has that nothing to do with the problem?

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[455driver]

But surely it's cows that release the most methane or has that nothing to do with the problem?

But cows cant be taxed so the Government are not interested!

 

[JGR]

But cows cant be taxed so the Government are not interested!

Don't give them ideas...

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, someone else brought up the subject and I feel duty bound to stand up against the tide of historical revisionism.

However, now you mention it, I believe that the closure programme contributed towards a vicious circle in which lack of public transport led to an ever increasing dependance on motor transport in this country, and I believe that the resultant increase in the emission of greenhouse gases has contributfed to the increased frequency of severe weather events.

So whilst Beeching didn‘t cause the storm, I would argue that his policies contributed towards it

Alternatively, Beeching improved the environmental efficiency of the country by replacing coal hungry steam engines that hauled a few coaches with even fewer people on or stood idle most of the day with much more efficient buses. Then the closed lines returned to nature and lots of trees grew up on the old trackbed. These trees hoovered up lots of CO2, reducing the greenhouse effect.

So rather than Beeching causing the storm, he actually made it less intense than it would have been!

 

[SF-02]

Lots of wind and rain heading into the country now. Expect quite a few trees down.

 

[30907]

It is unfortunate that the line from Exeter St Thomas, via Ide and Bovey Tracey to Newton Abbot was lifted instead of being developed.

But this is what happens when we allow ourselves to be undermined by self-seeking MP's like Ernest Marples together with his little Pet, the typically IGNORANT accountant Dr. Richard Beeching who confessed on his deathbed to having done Britain a terrible disservice

Just a detail - the Teign Valley branch was closed several years before Beeching.

Going back to St Jude: I don't think it has been reported on these forums that several main lines in Northern Germany have been closed all week due to storm damage, and AFAIK the electrified Oldenburg-Emden-Norddeich section is shut till Monday at least. (Before anyone points out - I know it was called Christian over there, and I know this is arguably the wrong forum, but it was the same storm!)

 

[Flamingo]

One down on the Kemble line just north of Swindon this afternoon. Bright & sunny there as well!

 

[Rich McLean]

Wind is up now, so expect a few more tree's to come down