Cambrian hourly service consultation

[impster]

Does anyone know how many 158 units were supposed to be 'covnerted' to ERTMS spec, and how many actually have been converted?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone know how many 158 units were supposed to be 'covnerted' to ERTMS spec, and how many actually have been converted?

24 - all of ATW's fleet (158 818-41).
They have all been upgraded to support ETCS Level 2 (and refurbished).

 

[IKBrunel]

24 - all of ATW's fleet (158 818-41).
They have all been upgraded to support ETCS Level 2 (and refurbished).

ah that's interesting, so if replacement units can be found there are a few ERTMS 158s not currently used on the Cambrian.

 

[Rhydgaled]

ah that's interesting, so if replacement units can be found there are a few ERTMS 158s not currently used on the Cambrian.

Indeed there are, at least 3 diagrams. There are also two diagrams worth between Chester and Holyhead which currently only need to be ERTMS units because the service currently runs through to Birmingham and hence to the Cambrian.

My concern, as I've said before, is not shortage of ERTMS units for the Cambrian but what replaces those units elsewhere if/when they are moved to the Cambrian.

 

[merlodlliw]

Does anyone know how many 158 units were supposed to be 'covnerted' to ERTMS spec, and how many actually have been converted?

welcome to RF forums.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed there are, at least 3 diagrams. There are also two diagrams worth between Chester and Holyhead which currently only need to be ERTMS units because the service currently runs through to Birmingham and hence to the Cambrian.

My concern, as I've said before, is not shortage of ERTMS units for the Cambrian but what replaces those units elsewhere if/when they are moved to the Cambrian.

ATW will find stock, anyhow this may interest you Rhydgaled,an e Mail I sent out today

Good Morning,

The X 94 bus service(Wrexham to Barmouth) which Arriva bus Wales will terminate on December 21st,causing great hardship, will be heard by the Welsh Government Petitions Committee next Monday,in Prestatyn at 0945. The petition carries 465 names.

Karen ....... will address the Committee as Principal Petition organiser , Karen is a Constituent of Clwyd West.

Will you kindly note.

http://www.senedd.assemblywales.org/documents/s20984/Cover sheet.pdf


Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed there are, at least 3 diagrams. There are also two diagrams worth between Chester and Holyhead which currently only need to be ERTMS units because the service currently runs through to Birmingham and hence to the Cambrian.

My concern, as I've said before, is not shortage of ERTMS units for the Cambrian but what replaces those units elsewhere if/when they are moved to the Cambrian.

The Holyhead to BHM International service reverses and goes onto the Cambrian and vice versa, there's 17 units diagrammed on it at the moment. One unit spends all day in the Llandudno to Manchester circuit and another 3 units can be found all over South Wales apart from via Queen St. There's 2 units to be found east of New St all day long which is not in the franchise area. This running through to INTL helped improve punctuality but at a cost of 2 units.

The line speed between Shrewsbury and Birmingham is poor despite talk of upgrading to 90 mph, this could save time enough to turn units at New St.

 

[Rhydgaled]

ATW will find stock

I know, but as I said I am concerned what this replacement stock will be for the areas the 158s are taken from.

anyhow this may interest you Rhydgaled,an e Mail I sent out today

Good Morning,

The X 94 bus service(Wrexham to Barmouth) which Arriva bus Wales will terminate on December 21st,causing great hardship, will be heard by the Welsh Government Petitions Committee next Monday,in Prestatyn at 0945. The petition carries 465 names.

Karen ....... will address the Committee as Principal Petition organiser , Karen is a Constituent of Clwyd West.

Will you kindly note.

http://www.senedd.assemblywales.org/documents/s20984/Cover sheet.pdf
Bob

Sadly the more general petition for Welsh bus services has attracted few signatures. Hasn't WAG already announced that a slice of bus funding will be nicked to ensure the X94 continues? I have overheard drivers reassuring passengers that the other services Arriva are abandoning will be taken up under emergency measures organised by the council, not sure if a Sunday service (only available on the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth route anyway) will survive though.

The Holyhead to BHM International service reverses and goes onto the Cambrian and vice versa, there's 17 units diagrammed on it at the moment. One unit spends all day in the Llandudno to Manchester circuit and another 3 units can be found all over South Wales apart from via Queen St. There's 2 units to be found east of New St all day long which is not in the franchise area. This running through to INTL helped improve punctuality but at a cost of 2 units.

The line speed between Shrewsbury and Birmingham is poor despite talk of upgrading to 90 mph, this could save time enough to turn units at New St.

Would terminating at New Street also put an end to the interworking between Cambrian and Holyhead-Birmingham services? It certainly seems inconvienient to have to run to Birmingham International to keep the service robust.

 

[The Planner]

The line speed between Shrewsbury and Birmingham is poor despite talk of upgrading to 90 mph, this could save time enough to turn units at New St.

Not a chance, you would need about 10 minutes saving to do that. Inbounds at New St are around xx:28 and the outbound xx:24.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not a chance, you would need about 10 minutes saving to do that. Inbounds at New St are around xx:28 and the outbound xx:24.

The old New St terminators arrived nn18 and departed nn28.
The current services also call at Smethwick Galton Bridge which extends journey times.
The International extension probably earns good ORCATS revenue and is popular with Salop folk if not in Wales.

A similar situation exists in Manchester where the Llandudno terminator spends 50 minutes in Mayfield Siding before returning west, passing the next incoming service at Oxford Road.

Another 158 unit spends all day working Shrewsbury-International, attaching to incoming Holyhead services and detaching on return 2 hours later.

 

[IKBrunel]

Would terminating at New Street also put an end to the interworking between Cambrian and Holyhead-Birmingham services? It certainly seems inconvienient to have to run to Birmingham International to keep the service robust.

There was a notable improvement in reliability when they changed to terminating at international, and a reduction in the inconvenient 'wolverhampton turnarounds' used to recoup delays, but that was all before ERTMS etc, so I'm not sure what the reliability would be like now if they reverted to New St termination.

 

[The Planner]

You couldn't make it work now.

 

[Gareth Marston]

You couldn't make it work now.

It didn't work between Sep 01 & Dec 08 either! Whoever thought that you could work a clockface timetable in the West Midlands with the tight turnaround time at all ends, single track sections and just 11 units to stretch from New St to Chester and the entire Cambrian......

Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton will be the slowest route from Shrewsbury once the Wrexham line upgrade is complete in 2015. The current 55 minutes from New St to Shrewsbury compares poorly with what the GWR were doing in 1932, the Birkenhead Express's were doing 65 minutes from Snow Hill with 5 minutes at Wolverhampton Low Level for a loco change and 3 at Wellington and that's with an Edwardian 'Star' hauling 400 odd tons of wooden bodied carriages!

 

[The Planner]

Unless you get rid of the 158s then there is little you can do, the gradients and generally poor performance of the 158 means it runs at 90 for such a short distance before it has to back off for a station stop between Wolves and Shrewsbury.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Unless you get rid of the 158s then there is little you can do, the gradients and generally poor performance of the 158 means it runs at 90 for such a short distance before it has to back off for a station stop between Wolves and Shrewsbury.

ATW 158's only stop at Wellington and Telford I can see that as reason between the two as their close but theirs longer 10 miles plus stretches either side.

The 30 miles from Wolves to Shrewsbury is done at an average of 48 mph in the WTT. There's roughly 5 miles of 1 in 150 up Madeley Bank as an adverse gradient.
The 33 3/4 miles from Shrewsbury to Newtown is done at an average of 54 mph in the WTT (with max speed 80). There's 12 miles at mostly 1 in 100 up to the summit at Plas Y Court on the border as the main adverse gradient.

There's probably not a lot it in at as theirs two stops east of Salop compared to the one west of it.

In the other direction Newtown to Shrewsbury is done at an average of 52mph despite the 4 mile of 1 in 80 up Breidden bank to the border.
Shrewsbury to Wolves is still 48mph with nothing worse than short stretch of 1 in 120.

 

[The Planner]

It has already been looked at as there is very little to be had out of it, 2 minutes tops.

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW 158's only stop at Wellington and Telford I can see that as reason between the two as their close but theirs longer 10 miles plus stretches either side.

On Sundays Wales & Borders completely take over the line between Shrewsbury & Birmingham,seeing 158s stop everywhere,perhaps thats what planner means.

 

[The Planner]

Nope, I mean what I have said previously, there is very little to be gained by upping it to 90mph.

 

[PHILIPE]

On Sundays Wales & Borders completely take over the line between Shrewsbury & Birmingham,seeing 158s stop everywhere,perhaps thats what planner means.

The 158s don't stop everywhere on a Sunday now and haven't done since 2011. There is a 2 hourly shuttle between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton worked by a 153. There may be exceptions at night after it has finished. This was done to speed up the trains and to re-distribute the passengers due to overcrowding.
The line was taken over on a Sunday first by Wales and Borders in 2001 when they took over the Cambrian routes from Central trains and for some reason ATW took over everything with no Central involvement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The old New St terminators arrived nn18 and departed nn28.
The current services also call at Smethwick Galton Bridge which extends journey times.
The International extension probably earns good ORCATS revenue and is popular with Salop folk if not in Wales.

A similar situation exists in Manchester where the Llandudno terminator spends 50 minutes in Mayfield Siding before returning west, passing the next incoming service at Oxford Road.

Another 158 unit spends all day working Shrewsbury-International, attaching to incoming Holyhead services and detaching on return 2 hours later.

No. The same 158 does not attach to a Holyhead train and detach on the way back. The Holyhead services return from Birmingham Int to Aberystwyth/Pwllheli arriving back at Shrewsbury 3 hours later and which continue beyond Shrewsbury with 4 cars and which split at Machynnleth. A similar process applies in the opposite direction.

 

[tomuk]

The line was taken over on a Sunday first by Wales and Borders in 2001 when they took over the Cambrian routes from Central trains.

Is there any mileage in ATW taking over the Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton line completely?

The 170s used on the services could be swapped for 158s (Scotrail?)

The resultant larger pool of 158s could then be diagrammed more effectively.

Also could an extra Shrewsbury - International service run via Walsall calling at all stations.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Is there any mileage in ATW taking over the Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton line completely?

The 170s used on the services could be swapped for 158s (Scotrail?)

I actually think it seems quite sensible the way it is at the moment: the regional express services being worked by regional express units (class 158s) and the local stoppers by suburban trains (class 170s). The Cheltenham - Cardiff route is almost the opposite, with 158s on some of the stoppers and all the regional express trains (XC's Cardiff-Nottinghams) being 170s:roll:. Obviously in the latter case there aren't enough 158s to fix the lunacy with a swap.

 

[tbtc]

Is there any mileage in ATW taking over the Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton line completely?

The 170s used on the services could be swapped for 158s (Scotrail?)

The resultant larger pool of 158s could then be diagrammed more effectively

I've suggested it in the past - it'd make more sense to have one TOC on the line - its the only diesel service that LM run on the Wolverhampton corridor, so the service has more in common with the W&B franchise.

Would then make it easier to diagram things, certainly

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've suggested it in the past - it'd make more sense to have one TOC on the line - its the only diesel service that LM run on the Wolverhampton corridor, so the service has more in common with the W&B franchise.

Would then make it easier to diagram things, certainly

The Wales and Border franchise was poorly thought out and poorly executed certainly for Mid Wales and Shropshire. All the London Midland diagrams between Shrewsbury and New St are self contained anyway, Shrewsbury must be one of the few places where two regional TOC's stable units and have crew depots. The service would be so much better if integrated.

There was no one asking for a Wales and Border franchise in Mid Wales and Shropshire it was imposed on us - apart from some Nationalist types i know in Aberystwyth who thought it would be about skipping through fields of flowers and through trains from Aberystwyth to Wrexham and Cardiff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there any mileage in ATW taking over the Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton line completely?

The 170s used on the services could be swapped for 158s (Scotrail?)

The resultant larger pool of 158s could then be diagrammed more effectively.

Also could an extra Shrewsbury - International service run via Walsall calling at all stations.

Welcome to RF Tom.

I suggested that (apart from the via Walsall bit) to the SRA in a RPC Public Meeting in 04 when the problems were already apparent- there was denial that there was a problem despite all the Wolverhampton turnarounds and sub 60% ppm!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I actually think it seems quite sensible the way it is at the moment: the regional express services being worked by regional express units (class 158s) and the local stoppers by suburban trains (class 170s). The Cheltenham - Cardiff route is almost the opposite, with 158s on some of the stoppers and all the regional express trains (XC's Cardiff-Nottinghams) being 170s:roll:. Obviously in the latter case there aren't enough 158s to fix the lunacy with a swap.

dont forget anything appears on the Cheltenhams from Canton 153's, Pacers, 150's........

 

[PHILIPE]

And 175s on occasions

 

[tbtc]

The Wales and Border franchise was poorly thought out and poorly executed certainly for Mid Wales and Shropshire. All the London Midland diagrams between Shrewsbury and New St are self contained anyway, Shrewsbury must be one of the few places where two regional TOC's stable units and have crew depots. The service would be so much better if integrated.

There was no one asking for a Wales and Border franchise in Mid Wales and Shropshire it was imposed on us - apart from some Nationalist types i know in Aberystwyth who thought it would be about skipping through fields of flowers and through trains from Aberystwyth to Wrexham and Cardiff

No arguments from me Gareth, sadly

 

[jones_bangor]

There was no one asking for a Wales and Border franchise in Mid Wales and Shropshire it was imposed on us - apart from some Nationalist types i know in Aberystwyth who thought it would be about skipping through fields of flowers and through trains from Aberystwyth to Wrexham and Cardiff.

Nationalist types? Where does that leave you...as a British realist?

The bottom line here is that there's been little change to Cambrian services since ATW came into being.....

Ambitious, and I feel realistic...., outcomes for the Cambrian should be at least a morning Voyager to Euston via Wolverhampton, adding valuable capacity, and an evening return.

Given that a LibDem MP sits for Cardigan, and a Conservative for Monts, I remain surprised this hasn't already happened!! You live there, YOU ask the questions!

 

[Llanigraham]

But Voyagers aren't ERTMS fitted, so can't use the Cambrian!!

 

[merlodlliw]

The 158s don't stop everywhere on a Sunday now and haven't done since 2011. There is a 2 hourly shuttle between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton worked by a 153. There may be exceptions at night after it has finished. This was done to speed up the trains and to re-distribute the passengers due to overcrowding.
The line was taken over on a Sunday first by Wales and Borders in 2001 when they took over the Cambrian routes from Central trains and for some reason ATW took over everything with no Central involvement.

I dont use this line very often on Sundays,but the other week I returned from the Midlands via a 158 stopping all stations to Shrewsbury, it was early evening, then caught the last train to Wrexham around 2020 off Shrewsbury.
I was not aware of the 153 running since 2011, but that's not my line,strange on Sundays how Cardiff run all services Salop to Birmingham,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But Voyagers aren't ERTMS fitted, so can't use the Cambrian!!

Perhaps he means from Shrewsbury.

 

[Hyphen]

The Cheltenham - Cardiff route is almost the opposite, with 158s on some of the stoppers and all the regional express trains (XC's Cardiff-Nottinghams) being 170s:roll:.

Yes, but don't forget that those units used to then go on to provide stopping services north of Birmingham back in Central days.

Admittedly since XC took the route over the Cardiff-Nottinghams are now regional express throughout, with the remainder now catered for by Nottingham-Brum short runs.

I'm not sure I'd want to see 158s on it though. On the odd occasion a 2-car 170 turns up on the full route (as one did when I took it last Friday afternoon) it can be a bit of a squeeze even south of Brum; it's usually much busier north of.

 

[Gareth Marston]

But Voyagers aren't ERTMS fitted, so can't use the Cambrian!!

Etcs does put Cambrian in rolling stock straight jacket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nationalist types? Where does that leave you...as a British realist?

The bottom line here is that there's been little change to Cambrian services since ATW came into being.....

Ambitious, and I feel realistic...., outcomes for the Cambrian should be at least a morning Voyager to Euston via Wolverhampton, adding valuable capacity, and an evening return.

Given that a LibDem MP sits for Cardigan, and a Conservative for Monts, I remain surprised this hasn't already happened!! You live there, YOU ask the questions!

There was a degree of naivety about creating a Welsh franchise with some thinking it would just be somehow magically be better because it was not the old step up, I think that most but not all of that attitude has gone now. 14 years of devolution has shown there isn't a magic wand based on what the geographical location of the decision makers is.

I don't think the theory that because your local politician is from the party of Government that rail improvements automatically follow holds, after all the AM for Ceredigion was a cabinet minister in the 3rd Assembly but Aberystwyth didn't get an hourly service!

 

[jones_bangor]

But Voyagers aren't ERTMS fitted, so can't use the Cambrian!!

I'm fully aware that Voyagers aren't ERTMS fitted, but this is surely something that could be overcome, or is ERTMS only installable in 158s and 37s!!??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was a degree of naivety about creating a Welsh franchise with some thinking it would just be somehow magically be better because it was not the old step up, I think that most but not all of that attitude has gone now. 14 years of devolution has shown there isn't a magic wand based on what the geographical location of the decision makers is.

I don't think the theory that because your local politician is from the party of Government that rail improvements automatically follow holds, after all the AM for Ceredigion was a cabinet minister in the 3rd Assembly but Aberystwyth didn't get an hourly service!

I agree that the honeymoon period for the Assembly in Cardiff is well and truly over, and more and more questions are being asked of it. The default "let's blame London" response is well and truly out of steam now.

However, I really don't think asking for a Voyager to Euston in the morning that would also serve Shrewsbury is that ambitious.