Todmorden Curve

[NorthernSpirit]

Wouldn't be too hard to bung some rails down and get a PPM trundlinging along it to Rose Grove or even Colne. As for the local stations along the East Lancashire Line, Burnley Manchester Rd is getting upgraded, so the platforms could be rebuilt along with a third platform which could be built at the Preston end of platform 2 but with the rails located on the opposite side of the platform so that units on the ELL could turn round.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wouldn't be too hard to bung some rails down and get a PPM trundling along it to Rose Grove or even Colne. As for the local stations along the East Lancashire Line, Burnley Manchester Rd is getting upgraded, so the platforms could be rebuilt along with a third platform which could be built at the Preston end of platform 2 but with the rails located on the opposite side of the platform so that units on the ELL could turn round.

Who will be bearing the cost of this rail instatement, rebuilt platforms and the cost of a PPM and what will the total cost be for the total of these items?

Are PPM now "ex-stock delivery" from the manufacturers or is there a time period that a new order will require ?

Amazing that Northern Rail will find problems in sourcing rolling stock for the period March 2014 to December 2014 for the proposed new service that will use the Copy Pit line, yet the cost of such rolling stock and infrastructural as shown in your quote above seems to be exterior to any existing financial budgets in CP4 and CP5.

 

[spongsdad]

I remember reading quite a few years ago that Lancashire County Council were to convert the trackbed into a footpath/cycle way/bridleway that the name of "The Padiham Greenway" was suggested as a pathway name.

The Padiham Greenway along the former North lancashire loop is indeed an accomplished fact, having been completed three or four years ago now.
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Sorry to display my ignorance but as a relative newcomer and as a layman in railway terms, I would like clarification on references to use of a "PPM" on the Colne-Rose Grove route. I'm guessing it is some sort of light railway vehicle or tram. Could someone please enlighten me?

 

[Kettledrum]

Who will be bearing the cost of this rail instatement, rebuilt platforms and the cost of a PPM and what will the total cost be for the total of these items?

Are PPM now "ex-stock delivery" from the manufacturers or is there a time period that a new order will require ?

Amazing that Northern Rail will find problems in sourcing rolling stock for the period March 2014 to December 2014 for the proposed new service that will use the Copy Pit line, yet the cost of such rolling stock and infrastructural as shown in your quote above seems to be exterior to any existing financial budgets in CP4 and CP5.

The cost of the new larger PPM doesn't seem that expensive.

http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/pdf/PPM120INFO.pdf

Just not sure how many you'd need, but it's a shame Northern Rail aren't tempted to gamble and get one and trial it.

 

[northwichcat]

Amazing that Northern Rail will find problems in sourcing rolling stock for the period March 2014 to December 2014 for the proposed new service that will use the Copy Pit line, yet the cost of such rolling stock and infrastructural as shown in your quote above seems to be exterior to any existing financial budgets in CP4 and CP5.

Many of the rolling stock problems are due to the current DfT keeping the previous DfT's rolling stock strategy when it's been very obvious for a while that following the spending review the coalition ordered everything had been put back and Thameslink rolling stock would be released late.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just not sure how many you'd need, but it's a shame Northern Rail aren't tempted to gamble and get one and trial it.

You do realise that Northern haven't signed a franchise extension beyond April 2014 so if they don't agree terms with DfT and DOR pick up the franchise then we could see a similar situation to where NXEC agreed to lease 5 x 180s for Lincoln services but DOR weren't interested in doing that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Padiham Greenway along the former North Lancashire loop is indeed an accomplished fact, having been completed three or four years ago now.

Thank you for updating me. One of the early companies that I worked for after leaving Manchester University in 1966 saw me on site at the Perseverance Mill Company in Padiham for a three month period of evaluation of proposed new modern water-jet looms. That company at that time produced A, B, C and D cloths for the MoD and heavy duty parachute cloth for the American armed forces which was made up by the GQ Parachute Company which I think were based in the Woking area.

There was once a proposed (but never proceeded with) railway line that would have made a connection with this loop line immediately after the Martholme viaduct and run in a north-westerly direction towards Whalley. This would have been the Burnley, Clitheroe and Sabden Railway Company. The prospectus was dated December 1886.

 

[spongsdad]

Thank you for updating me. One of the early companies that I worked for after leaving Manchester University in 1966 saw me on site at the Perseverance Mill Company in Padiham for a three month period of evaluation of proposed new modern looms. That company at that time produced A, B, C and D cloths for the MoD and heavy duty parachute cloth for the American armed forces which was made up by the GQ Parachute Company which I think were based in the Woking area.

It's small world isn't it. One of my very close friends- now sadly deceased- was production director at Perseverance Mill for much of the 70's and 80's. Though I wasn't familiar with the processes I was aware of their business in producing parachute cloth. They also installed the latest in weaving technology; water jet looms as I recall. I don't know whether you've been past in recent times but the mill is no more.
Regarding my post above, please explain the term PPM (in relation to possible use Colne to Rose Grove.) I imagine they are light railway vehicles -trams perhaps. I am struggling with many of the abbreviations I encounter on this folder.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I imagine they are light railway vehicles -trams perhaps. I am struggling with many of the abbreviations I encounter on this folder.

They are what is referred to the Class 139 Parry People Movers that operate on the very short Stourbridge Junction to Stourbridge Town branch line.

 

[mirodo]

I was talking to a man in the pub last night (in Burnley) and present the following information with the caveat that it may be a load of tosh, so don't shoot the messenger if it is!

Anyway, Gordon Birtwistle, Burnley's MP, has been into the DfT stomping his feet and kicking up a fuss and supposedly the rolling stock required to operate the new service has been found "in East Anglia", and so services will be able to go ahead from May 2014.

Make of that what you will.

 

[CalderRail]

I was down there last weekend and have a few shots of the engineering train on the tracks. Nothing spectacular mind. However, I have nowhere to upload them - any suggestion?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

...supposedly the rolling stock required to operate the new service has been found "in East Anglia", and so services will be able to go ahead from May 2014. Make of that what you will.

Now then, I learn something new every day. How long have Newton Heath had a sub-shed in East Anglia with "spare stock" that Northern Rail have been keeping very quiet about...hock:

Or have they had an interest in the Mid-Suffolk Light Railway tucked away in the back pages addendum of their 2004 franchise documents.

 

[YorkshireBear]

You would think someone would look again at doing the loco hauled along Cumbrian coast to release enough units for a service. I suppose the same can be said of other areas of the country such as EA and FGW.

It may just be a rumor we will see!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You would think someone would look again at doing the loco hauled along Cumbrian coast to release enough units for a service. I suppose the same can be said of other areas of the country such as EA and FGW.

It may just be a rumor we will see!

Who owns these locomotives and where is their home base ? Could the Copy Pit line be seen as too far for them to travel away from their base ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Who owns these locomotives and where is their home base ? Could the Copy Pit line be seen as too far for them to travel away from their base ?

Not really suitable with the stop start nature, but we have DRS 47s and DBS 67s spare in some places and also, we have the DRS mk2s and a few other mk2s about. They would be better on different services to displace DMUs for Copypit.

 

[Darren R]

There is the track leading to the Padiham branch, presumably OOU, which could be re-commissioned for a turn back for a Colne branch shuttle. The Man Vic-Burnley-Blackburn trains could be extended to Balckpool South.
The problem is that the Colne branch has been rather too enthusiastically rationalised. It is no more than a long siding and this imposes the constraints. Rather than the SELRAP fantasy it might be more realistic to campaign for more modest funding to restore some capacity in the form of a passing loop so that the frequency can be increased to 2 tph. A 2 tph shuttle connecting at Rose Grove into/out of BOTH the West Yorks-Blackpool and the Man Vic-East Lancs trains would be a huge improvement on existing provision. Also there are quite a few short distance local trips within E.Lancs which would benefit from increased frequency. Can anyone design a timetable and rolling stock diagram for this?! (challenge!)

I don't wish to be a killjoy, but this isn't actually a fantasy thread! Manchester Victoria to Blackpool South via Yorkshire? (Although it makes an interesting change from the usual Blackburn to Blackburn circulars proposal that seems to reer its ugly head so often!) That's an end-to-end journey time of about two and a half hours that serves no particular purpose other than further inconveniencing passengers from the Colne branch; this would require six units. Coincidentally that's the same number of units currently required for the Blackpool South to Colne and the new Man Vic - Todmorden - Blackburn services combined. Without having to buy any PPMs!

And one last comment before the thread goes too far off topic, the problem with the Colne branch is not the infrastructure per se: it's the fact that it's used by the same trains that use the Blackpool South siding. Gannow Junction to Colne takes 20 minutes. The problems are caused because incoming and outgoing trains have to pass each other at Rose Grove because of timings at Kirkham & Wesham. Timings there are fixed, and the rest of the timetable revolves around this. If the Colne trains started instead from Preston, a much more robust timetable could be drafted. But that really is for another thread in another section!

Originally Posted by Paul Sidorczuk
Are any of the usual contributors to this particular thread affected by these tunnel works on that route ?

Not any more - since I've discovered that my jaunts into the Northern part of God's Own Country will be quicker (and cheaper!) by getting off the train at Manchester Road and walking to Burnley Bus Station to catch the Number 23 bus from there instead!

 

[ianhr]

I don't wish to be a killjoy, but this isn't actually a fantasy thread! Manchester Victoria to Blackpool South via Yorkshire? (Although it makes an interesting change from the usual Blackburn to Blackburn circulars proposal that seems to reer its ugly head so often!) That's an end-to-end journey time of about two and a half hours that serves no particular purpose other than further inconveniencing passengers from the Colne branch; this would require six units. Coincidentally that's the same number of units currently required for the Blackpool South to Colne and the new Man Vic - Todmorden - Blackburn services combined. Without having to buy any PPMs!

And one last comment before the thread goes too far off topic, the problem with the Colne branch is not the infrastructure per se: it's the fact that it's used by the same trains that use the Blackpool South siding. Gannow Junction to Colne takes 20 minutes. The problems are caused because incoming and outgoing trains have to pass each other at Rose Grove because of timings at Kirkham & Wesham. Timings there are fixed, and the rest of the timetable revolves around this. If the Colne trains started instead from Preston, a much more robust timetable could be drafted. But that really is for another thread in another section!]

Ok, do we know where the people who actually use the Colne branch want to travel TO? Manchester? Preston? Blackpool South?...I suspect quite a few just go to other E.Lancs towns. I doubt many want to go to Blackpool South apart from on Summer days out.

Perhaps the Blackpool South line should be run as a shuttle from Preston if this would improve reliability. My suggestion for a through working was that this is often promoted as a way of reducing terminal costs and obtaining better rolling stock utilisation. I gather that few trains will turn at Man Vic once all the improvements are implemented, with electric trains turning at Stalybridge and DMUs at Rochdale.

If the Rose Grove-Colne timing is 20min then a half hourly service could be provided as a shuttle from Rose Grove, with one unit if some way of turning it there could be found without conflicting with trains to/from the Copy Pit line. I really do think SELRAP is a daft proposal, a fantasy with ZERO prospect of implementation whereas increased frequency on the existing Colne branch could be achieved cheaply and quickly and benefit more people.

 

[northwichcat]

Now then, I learn something new every day. How long have Newton Heath had a sub-shed in East Anglia with "spare stock" that Northern Rail have been keeping very quiet about...hock:

You may recall in 2004 2 of the Newton Heath 158s operated belonging to First North Western got subleased to the new First/Kelios TPE franchise to be used on Manchester to Hull/Beverley/Bridlington services. So a unit being subleased from Abellio Greater Anglia to Serco/Abellio Northern Rail would be very similar.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You may recall in 2004 2 of the Newton Heath 158s operated belonging to First North Western got subleased to the new First/Kelios TPE franchise to be used on Manchester to Hull/Beverley/Bridlington services. So a unit being subleased from Abellio Greater Anglia to Serco/Abellio Northern Rail would be very similar.

But that was before the current franchise was awarded to Northern Rail in 2004 and I understand there is a problem with the current "no growth" franchise and rolling stock provision from what "the reading in-between the lines" of recent Northern Rail statements seem to say on the matter of rolling stock provision.

 

[Whistler40145]

With regards the Blackpool South to Colne service, I would divert this to Ormskirk & start the Colne service @ Preston.

Another alternative would be a joint Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe/Colne service splitting @ Blackburn.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

With regards the Blackpool South to Colne service, I would divert this to Ormskirk & start the Colne service @ Preston.

Another alternative would be a joint Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe/Colne service splitting @ Blackburn.

But what would be the benefit of sending it to Ormskirk in lieu of Colne? I doubt punctuality figures would be helped as you'd need a very short turn around to get from Farington Curve Jn-Ormskirk-Farington Curve Jn in order to clear the single track for the next service down there, unless you'd either create an uneven timetable (presumably affecting the currently clockface BPS line) or a 2-hourly service, worse than at present for OMS? Unless you had a long dwell time at Preston southbound too, the busyness of the high summer weekend services from Blackpool would see any chance of an ontime departure from OMS go out of the window before you'd even left PRE, should it be hourly. Further, if you operated Man Vic-Clitheroe / Colne services, what would you do to cover the halved service (2tph->1tph) from Blackburn-Preston, and the hourly calls at the five intermediate halts between them?

 

[northwichcat]

But that was before the current franchise was awarded to Northern Rail in 2004 and I understand there is a problem with the current "no growth" franchise and rolling stock provision from what "the reading in-between the lines" of recent Northern Rail statements seem to say on the matter of rolling stock provision.

I think 'no growth' can translate as 'no new rolling stock permitted' opposed to 'no additional carriages permitted.'

The previous Labour government who awarded the franchise on 'no growth' terms then later said Northern would need around an additional 300 carriages due to growth. They did look at Northern getting both brand new DMUs and EMUs but then changed that to cascaded units only including a number of the Thameslink EMUs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think 'no growth' can translate as 'no new rolling stock permitted' opposed to 'no additional carriages permitted.'

But being my usual pedantic self, if "no growth" means what it purports to state, why should "additional carriages" be provided to meet a "no growth scenario", as additional carriages are surely only required when growth has occurred and then to provide cover for this growth.

Put it another way, has there ever been any legal moves to change that particular proviso of the 2004 Northern Rail franchise documentation ?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

With regards the Blackpool South to Colne service, I would divert this to Ormskirk & start the Colne service @ Preston.

Another alternative would be a joint Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe/Colne service splitting @ Blackburn.

I live in Blackpool South Shore. A service to Ormskirk would do nothing for me.
Blackpool South line needs urgent investment - dynamic passing loop etc.
East west services are poor enough already, extending Colne on to to Skipton would be good, but that is donkey years away.
With a passing loop - Blackpool South - Manchester Victoria Via Todmorden Curve, as the second tph.

 

[northwichcat]

But being my usual pedantic self, if "no growth" means what it purports to state, why should "additional carriages" be provided to meet a "no growth scenario", as additional carriages are surely only required when growth has occurred and then to provide cover for this growth.

Put it another way, has there ever been any legal moves to change that particular proviso of the 2004 Northern Rail franchise documentation ?

Firstly, growth on non-Northern services has resulted in additional Northern services e.g. the extension of a Leeds to Sheffield service to Nottingham.

Secondly, as I pointed out in my previous post DfT admitted it got it wrong over Northern Rail before the last election so additional carriages have been added to the Northern franchise and more will be added. However, due to the franchise terms not requiring additional services or capacity to be added at certain dates e.g. a saying a Manchester to Burnley service must commence on XX/XX it means if no rolling stock is available the proposed new service can be delayed. Compare that to Southern who DfT have allowed to order additional rolling stock due to FCC requiring the 377s longer than originally anticipated because they have a franchise commitment to add additional capacity from December 2013.

 

[Whistler40145]

As a matter of interest, what stock is cleared for the Colne & Blackpool South branches?

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[142094]

As a matter of interest, what stock is cleared for the Colne & Blackpool South branches?

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142s are the usual, although I've seen 150s on the Blackpool South workings as well. So I take it 156s etc will also be cleared.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

142s, 150s and 156s are all fine for both and make 100% of all services to either. 158s are not cleared for Gannow Jn-Colne however; I am unsure whether they are OK for Blackpool South or not.

 

[Whistler40145]

Split the current Blackpool South to Colne and run as a Blackpool South to Preston shuttle and run the Colne service from Preston. (Platform Capacity @ Preston could be a problem for the Blackpool South shuttle).

Or

Blackpool South to Preston shuttle

&

Blackpool North to York service using a 158+156 combination, split @ Blackburn with one portion going forward to Colne. I know this would require retiming, but could it be done?

Or

Blackpool North to Colne

Who would want to use a Blackpool South to Manchester Victoria service via Todmorden?

Once the Ordsall Curve is complete, you could run a Preston/Blackburn to Manchester Airport via Todmorden & Manchester Victoria, hopefully by then 185s are cleared for Preston to Todmorden.


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[bluenoxid]

The problem with the Colne branch is it really is in the wrong place for the rail network. The north end terminates with a dual carriageway and a Canal to cross before the next settlement. At the south end, it needs to fight Clitheroe services for access to Manchester.

The high cost of rail upgrades puts it out of the reach of most funding pots (fair to say Junction 13A to Foulridge is higher priority than extending the line or expanding capacity).

There is no big halfway point settlement to justify two trains on branch scenarios (eg a second train drops on the branch and terminates halfway), with Burnley also well served by Manchester Road.

Heavy Rail is not the solution for everything here. However, Hapton may make a good point for P&R and Rose Grove brilliant for Bus services run through from Pendle.

 

[natureboy]

Not been to TOD for a while, but apparently the crossover and turnout for the new curve are in. Now that the Copy Pit line is closed the serious work can begin.
I'm looking forward to driving the replacement bus service between Hebden Bridge and Burnley Manchester Road. I'm expecting it to be pretty busy at times. It wouldn't surprise me that passengers for Rochdale/Manchester Victoria will want to jump off in Todmorden. It would certainly make sense that as the buses will have to go through Todmorden to get to/from Burnley.