Refunds for overcrowding?

[orpine]

I always find it hard to understand how people can claim that overcrowding is dangerous. People pack themselves onto busy trains.

People absolutely suck at risk analysis. They get in their cars and drive without a second thought despite it being one of the most dangerous things people do.

However, reference:
http://www.surgsci.umu.se/digitalAssets/119/119614_rebecca-forsberg.pdf

Standing or walking at the time of the
crash has also been shown to cause worse
injuries (Wakeland, 1978; Cooksey, 1992;
Cugnoni et al., 1994). This was observed
in the present study as well, where four out
of five standing people received moderate
or worse injuries (MAIS 2+). It is therefore
Figure 5. Type of seats in the carriages.
Photo: The Swedish Transport Administration
vital to remain seated, especially at high
speed. This would require trains to be
equipped
with
adequate
seating
to
accommodate all passengers.

So the science confirms it is more dangerous to stand than sit. Also to be in the first carriage. People get to make that judgement when the get on the train, but lets be honest here again - people suck at risk analysis. For any individual trip the risk is low. But XC runs their trains hundreds of thousands of miles a year (millions?) - the chances of something happening to a passenger therefore is a lot higher from their perspective and they have a moral duty to ensure their passengers safety.

 

[6Gman]

Fair questions:
As noted, the train was over-crowded from Reading to Coventry minimum. From experience it would have been Birmingham New Street everyone got off, so that's a minimum of 1.5hrs. It was to Manchester, probably from southampton - 4.5hrs. So it was overcrowded for a MINIMUM of 1/3rd of the entire route. Personally I don't think that's acceptable.

We are getting somewhere now! Thank you for the information. Have you contacted XC to raise this concern? I would agree that Reading to New Street {min] is unacceptable, if regular. However, it doesn't actually mean there is any stock available to strengthen the train!

- Yes people were oblidged to stand for a length spell, on both of my journeys there were folks who were still standing when I got off - so 90 mins.

And were they the same people?

- I think that more than justifies it. Consider also:
a) It's hazard for emergencies/accidents (I suspect standing has a higher mortality rate but haven't confirmed).

Not sure there's any evidence for that statement.

b) It's impossible to get to the "light buffet".

Well, short of ejecting passengers how do you propose tackling that? Bear in mind that any strengthening unit would probably be trolleyless!

c) No ticket checks.

Aren't there barriers at the main stations on that stretch. I'm also not certain that the numbers of standing passengers you stated - 20 per carriage - would block a determined Conductor!

d) environmental and ticket revenue impact due to reduced use of service - if there was an alternative many people probably take it to avoid the overcrowding - in fact at least three folks here were glibly suggesting I shouldn't have gotten on in the first place, so they made my point for me.

Again, the reason for the refund suggestion is because I believe I've suffered undue hardship (I don't), it's because how else am I supposed to effect change in the rail companies apart from hitting them where it hurts - their pocket. If everyone could get a refund for overcrowding then suddenly the problem would be much reduced. The companies would find the money to pay the staff to work the trains that are otherwise sitting idle on Sundays.

You keep repeating this but as others have pointed out it isn't necessarily the case. I would suspect the XC is pretty nearly fully committed on Sunday afternoons/evenings.

You may care to read a post which follows re a journey I undertook today which outlines the issue is not straightforward.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Today I travelled on the 1804 Liverpool - Birmingham. Liverpool were playing at home. The game finished just before 5.

Every seat was taken by 1750. By departure time there were 40+ (est) standing in our coach, and I suspect the other three coaches were similar.

Apart from a train into Stratford during last year's Olympics it was the most crowded train I've used in recent years.

Something should be done!

But what?

1. Lengthen the train! Well, there's probably not a spare unit available without bringing it from Northampton/Bletchley (not sure if Soho have a spare on a Saturday). BUT an 8 car train would create problems at stations i.e. it wouldn't fit! So that's a non-starter.

2. Run an extra train. Post-privatisation politics make this a nightmare, but you could probably - at a cost - arrange a nice little 4car Relief to Crewe. But the cost? And can it be pathed?

3. (My initial idea) Put a Special Stop Order on the 1748 Euston at Crewe. BUT platforming at Crewe could be tricky (I think it's booked to overtake the preceding Birmingham at Crewe, so the main Up platform is occupied. Plus the delay would cause problems pathing further south. And since Liverpool were playing Fulham the Police might have had concerns re mixing of fans.

4. Put on a more capacious unit. Er, it was already a 350/2. Thank goodness!

So you see it's not easy.

Oh, and after Winsford there were only a few standing. And there were empty seats from Crewe!

So has our OP a view on how the problem of the 1804 should be tackled?

 

[pinguini]

I don't even see why people will have paid for overcrowding in the first place

 

[fowler9]

I was on a 156 last winter where the heating had failed and the train was freezing. I was chatting to the guard who was a lovely lady and she said she had called her manager to say the heating wasn't working. He apparently said "Just get on with it, they have paid to travel not for luxury". Glad we know where we stand, literally.

 

[Rich McLean]

There used to be a passenger travelled daily from Reading to London, her prefered place was sitting in the aisle of First Class, and whenever she was told to move, (either by the TM or Customer Host with the trolley), she would start into a rant in which "Efl & Safety" was liberally thrown in.

One morning (when, as usual there was plenty of room in A & B) she started her rant at me (again). I listened, and when she paused for breath I placatingly said "You are right Ma'am, how may people would need to be removed to make it safe?" When she said 100, I replied "I'm going to ring Control, have us stopped at Slough, and have 100 people removed. Would you like to help me chose the other 99?"

Did you get a "Please Explain" out of this from you boss

 

[1e10]

If you can afford to waste their time, do a Subject Access Request for a copy of the CCTV that shows you to evidence that you were standing.

Voyagers don't have CCTV.

If the train was as (over)crowded as you state why didnt you get off and catch a later (quieter) service?

Most XC services will be busy during the evening. It can be hours before it'll die down.

The trains parked up at Leamington are LM 172s, with no first class, no catering facilities and mid-carriage doors.

They are obviously excellent on long-distance XC services. :roll:

Not sure of the point I am trying to make here. Using RTT I've just counted the amount of Voyager movements out of each depot XC use. There are 47 Voyagers out across the country this Sunday (today) and 40 this Monday. (Tomorrow) so it would seem there is more stock out on a Sunday. Of course some of those movements will be double Voyagers.

 

[Greenback]

Orpine, you do have a choice about your travel. your choices include:

1. Not travelling at all.
2. Trying to find a quieter time to travel.
3. Travelling by an alternative mode of transport.
4. Trying to reserve a seat.
5. Taking your chance on turning up without a reservation on the train of your choice, finding no seat available, standing and then complaining about it.

If it were me, I would only choose option 5 as a last resort. It is a shame that there are insufficient resources to guarantee a seat for everyone who wants one on every possible journey. I think you ar eunlucky that the only rail choice you have on your route is XC, who are notorious for overcrowded trains, particularly at weekends.

 

[1e10]

The bottom line is if the railways were able to offer everyone a seat at all times then it would cost a lot more to run, something the majority don't want to pay for. If you do want to pay for it then great, purchase a First Class ticket.

 

[PG]

5. Taking your chance on turning up without a reservation on the train of your choice, finding no seat available, standing and then complaining about it.

Even if everyone had a seat they'd still find something to moan about. Herd mentality/camaraderie, the public love a good moan Baa Baa

 

[Greenback]

Even if everyone had a seat they'd still find something to moan about. Herd mentality/camaraderie, the public love a good moan Baa Baa

I enjoy a good moan as much as anyone else! One thing I don't do (much) is moan about having to stand, which I do 90% of the time on my daily commute.

I had to stand in August between Bristol and Cardiff on a train that was described as full and standing before it arrived at Temple Meads. I did moan on that occasion that I could not reach my reserved seat because of the crowd.

 

[Flamingo]

Did you get a "Please Explain" out of this from you boss

Naw, she decided to move to one of the empty seats in standard than pay the First Class price -as usual...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if everyone had a seat they'd still find something to moan about. Herd mentality/camaraderie, the public love a good moan Baa Baa

I had somebody moaning last night (for about five minutes -they were like the Ancient Mariner) about the rocketing prices and poor service (train was on time, heating & catering were in place, plenty of empty seats, but the Volo TV was broken). When I saw their tickets, they had paid £4.50 each for two kids, £9 each for two adults for travel from London zone 3 to Cardiff.

How can you keep some people happy?

 

[1e10]

Naw, she decided to move to one of the empty seats in standard than pay the First Class price -as usual...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I had somebody moaning last night (for about five minutes -they were like the Ancient Mariner) about the rocketing prices and poor service (train was on time, heating & catering were in place, plenty of empty seats, but the Volo TV was broken). When I saw their tickets, they had paid £4.50 each for two kids, £9 each for two adults for travel from London zone 3 to Cardiff.

How can you keep some people happy?

Volo TV is often broke for me but I wouldn't complain about it. I try to avoid coach D (damn XC website seems to like allocating me seats in coach D for FGW services) as it seems to attract the noisy bunch. It is interesting to see where the train is and speed info though. If anything FGW deserve praise for fitting the systems, most other operators wouldn't even bother.

 

[Flamingo]

I was tempted to tell him to look for a refund of what he'd paid for the TV.

 

[PG]

People absolutely suck at risk analysis. They get in their cars and drive without a second thought despite it being one of the most dangerous things people do.

However, reference:
http://www.surgsci.umu.se/digitalAssets/119/119614_rebecca-forsberg.pdf

So the science confirms it is more dangerous to stand than sit. Also to be in the first carriage. People get to make that judgement when the get on the train, but lets be honest here again - people suck at risk analysis. For any individual trip the risk is low. But XC runs their trains hundreds of thousands of miles a year (millions?) - the chances of something happening to a passenger therefore is a lot higher from their perspective and they have a moral duty to ensure their passengers safety.

The document you reference is the authors thesis, and as such whilst not decrying her work, I opine that it is therefore her intellectual proposition, which incidentally references five other works to all of which the author has contributed.

Actually I'd suggest that XC, or any other TOC, have a legal obligation to ensure passengers safety - if it were merely moral they'd not pay such high regard to it.

Notwithstanding that, however, the Hidden report
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Hidden001.pdf
makes reference to overcrowding (sections 15.39 and 15.40 on page 144)

15.39 It was of greater importance to establish how standing and seated passengers were affected by the collision. Wing Commander Hill, an eminent pathologist, and an expert in fatal accident investigations prepared a report for the Investigation. His unchallenged evidence was that the severity of injury, or the risk of fatality, was no greater for standing than seated passengers.

15.40 Had the trains been overloaded, those passengers having to stand as a result would not have been placed at any greater risk than those seated. However, the fact is inescapable that the higher the number of passengers on a train, the higher the number of casualties is likely to be in absolute terms.

I therefore suggest that whilst overcrowding/having to stand is uncomfortable it most certainly is not a safety issue.

 

[6Gman]

It would be interesting if the OP would explain how his "compensation for overcrowding" scheme would work.

I can see insuperable difficulties:

1. How is 'overcrowding' to be measured?
2. Who would be able to claim?
3. And what about journeys which are overcrowded for part of a journey?

 

[PG]

I was tempted to tell him to look for a refund of what he'd paid for the TV.

Bet he'd have claimed it was all-inclusive and wanted the whole £27 back. As for keeping them happy, some people want it all on a plate... best give it to them - preferably one with custard pie on it in the face

 

[orpine]

- Yes people were oblidged to stand for a length spell, on both of my journeys there were folks who were still standing when I got off - so 90 mins.

And were they the same people?

As best I could tell, yes.

a) It's hazard for emergencies/accidents (I suspect standing has a higher mortality rate but haven't confirmed).

Not sure there's any evidence for that statement.

See my earlier post (with reference) which shows that standing during an accident is much worse for survivability/injuries.

So you see it's not easy.

Maybe. But some of these problems are created by the rail network itself (either DfT, ATOC, NR, or whoever), namely the inflexibility of adding extra trains when needed as in the case of your special-event ending. Any other industry they know when something is going to happen and plan for it. The lights don't go out during half-time of a football match because the electric grid plans for everyone turning their kettles on. I don't see why the rail industry couldn't do similar.

The document you reference is the authors thesis, and as such whilst not decrying her work, I opine that it is therefore her intellectual proposition, which incidentally references five other works to all of which the author has contributed.

Well spotted. Alas I don't have access to an academic institutional login so can't do a proper search. Google Scholar only gets me so far.

 

[fowler9]

Just out of interest what is the legal standing on getting a seat. I've looked at countless tickets Ive got dotted around and none of them clearly state it is for travel alone and not for a seat. It isn't stated clearly in any of the stations I regularly use. Surely it should be made clear to people what they are actually paying for when they pass the money over and I'm not sure it is. If it was stated clearly perhaps it would stop countless disputes and arguments and thus save a lot of money.

It does say that for more information ask staff or check out the national rail website. Does that cover the company for what they are selling to people, keeping in mind that by time they have bought the ticket and have read that I presume they already have a contract with the service provider.

Just a sign saying that you are paying for travel and not any comfort would clear that one up.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Just out of interest what is the legal standing on getting a seat. I've looked at countless tickets Ive got dotted around and none of them clearly state it is for travel alone and not for a seat. It isn't stated clearly in any of the stations I regularly use. Surely it should be made clear to people what they are actually paying for when they pass the money over and I'm not sure it is.

. . .

Just a sign saying that you are paying for travel and not any comfort would clear that one up.

Please see the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

40. Reserving seats

Seats in some trains can be reserved before you travel and you may have to pay a fee. Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey.

The rear of every ticket (the coupons printed on orange stock) states: "Issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."
Booking tickets electronically requires the passenger to tick a box confirming that they accept that the ticket being purchased is subject to the Terms and Conditions in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[fowler9]

Please see the National Rail Conditions of CarriageThe rear of every ticket (the coupons printed on orange stock) states: "Issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."
Booking tickets electronically requires the passenger to tick a box confirming that they accept that the ticket being purchased is subject to the Terms and Conditions in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

You buy it when you turn up at the station and you find out after you have paid for it though. That was my question really. It was just out of interest really, I know the score anyway and am not trying to gain an advantage.

 

[Flamingo]

When sold a ticket, you are at liberty to get on any train that ticket is valid for. If you think it's too crowded, then your option is to wait for the next train.

It comes down to personal choice, I'm afraid...

 

[PG]

As best I could tell, yes.

Quote:
a) It's hazard for emergencies/accidents (I suspect standing has a higher mortality rate but haven't confirmed).

Not sure there's any evidence for that statement.

See my earlier post (with reference) which shows that standing during an accident is much worse for survivability/injuries.

<snip>

Quote:
The document you reference is the authors thesis, and as such whilst not decrying her work, I opine that it is therefore her intellectual proposition, which incidentally references five other works to all of which the author has contributed.

Well spotted. Alas I don't have access to an academic institutional login so can't do a proper search. Google Scholar only gets me so far.

I'll refer you back to my earlier post, #74, which provided a reference that standing and/or overcrowding isn't a factor in severity of injuries sustained or number of fatalities.

I didn't use an academic login, I read the thesis to which you provided a link.

 

[island]

You buy it when you turn up at the station and you find out after you have paid for it though. That was my question really. It was just out of interest really, I know the score anyway and am not trying to gain an advantage.

You are at liberty to request or read a copy of the NRCoC before you purchase your ticket.

 

[6Gman]

But some of these problems are created by the rail network itself (either DfT, ATOC, NR, or whoever), namely the inflexibility of adding extra trains when needed as in the case of your special-event ending. Any other industry they know when something is going to happen and plan for it. The lights don't go out during half-time of a football match because the electric grid plans for everyone turning their kettles on. I don't see why the rail industry couldn't do similar.

But adding "an extra train" in connection with my "special-event ending" (by which I presume you mean coming back from Liverpool on Saturday) would be impractical and unreasonably expensive. Is it really sensible to bring empty stock from Manchester [nearest point where I know stock is available] to Liverpool, to form a special Liverpool - Crewe train, which then runs empty back to Manchester? Add up the rolling stock, track access and staffing costs of that little lot. All so that people don't have to stand for 40 minutes.

It doesn't add up.

 

[fowler9]

You are at liberty to request or read a copy of the NRCoC before you purchase your ticket.

I totally understand that and as someone who has used the railways on my own for 30 odd years I am fine with that. Do you not think that it may be an idea to at least make people aware of this before they travel. There is certainly nothing provided in my local station until you read the small print on the back of the ticket after you have bought it. Do you even get what I am saying? Not everyone knows how the railways work, not everyone buys a ticket in advance on the internet and ticks the box without reading what they are agreeing to. I can buy a ticket in my local station and could possibly not be aware of any rules and regulations until it is paid for and the ticket is in my hands. There is nothing in the station making me aware of these rules.

Maybe I have missed something at the bottom of a timetable in tiny print in the station but I doubt it. If the information is there do you expect everyone to read it in full and check the internet for any further info if they are able to. Mate my local station has at least bloke working there who is often out at the shops shortly before the train is due and last time I was there told me to buy a ticket on the train, which I believe would be an offence. Now I know the rules but not everyone does. Some people on here love the railways that much that they expect everyone to know the letter and the law just to catch a train when the people working in some of the stations don't even know it. Who do they trust?

 

[PG]

I totally understand that and as someone who has used the railways on my own for 30 odd years I am fine with that. Do you not think that it may be an idea to at least make people aware of this before they travel. There is certainly nothing provided in my local station until you read the small print on the back of the ticket after you have bought it. Do you even get what I am saying? Not everyone knows how the railways work, not everyone buys a ticket in advance on the internet and ticks the box without reading what they are agreeing to. I can buy a ticket in my local station and could possibly not be aware of any rules and regulations until it is paid for and the ticket is in my hands. There is nothing in the station making me aware of these rules.

Maybe I have missed something at the bottom of a timetable in tiny print in the station but I doubt it. If the information is there do you expect everyone to read it in full and check the internet for any further info if they are able to. Mate my local station has at least bloke working there who is often out at the shops shortly before the train is due and last time I was there told me to buy a ticket on the train, which I believe would be an offence. Now I know the rules but not everyone does. Some people on here love the railways that much that they expect everyone to know the letter and the law just to catch a train when the people working in some of the stations don't even know it. Who do they trust?

I think you're driving at a lost cause here. Pretty much every transport operator, be it land, sea or air, will have their own conditions of carriage. I can't believe any court in the land would uphold a judgement against them because a passenger claimed to be unaware of their existence, a judge would say any reasonable person would expect there to be such conditions and it is up to them if they decide to read them (or not) before travelling or purchasing a ticket.

 

[fowler9]

I think you're driving at a lost cause here. Pretty much every transport operator, be it land, sea or air, will have their own conditions of carriage. I can't believe any court in the land would uphold a judgement against them because a passenger claimed to be unaware of their existence, a judge would say any reasonable person would expect there to be such conditions and it is up to them if they decide to read them (or not) before travelling or purchasing a ticket.

I think you are completely correct. I do not think it is right.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think you're driving at a lost cause here. Pretty much every transport operator, be it land, sea or air, will have their own conditions of carriage. I can't believe any court in the land would uphold . . . . . .

Indeed. And what makes that argument all the more compelling is that the same principle applies far more widely than merely to transport operators.

Almost any transaction, or agreement that we enter into in our every day lives and which involves a corporate body, an institution or even a tradesperson, will have Conditions, limitations, warranties, exceptions and waivers. And we all know that to be true, whether it is buying, leasing, licensing, renting, gambling, investing, contracting, etc.

It beggars belief that any one would not be expecting Conditions etc. to be applied to Rail Travel.

 

[maniacmartin]

You are supposed to be allowed to inspect the NRCoC at stations, but your experience may differ.

In any case, I'm sure most clerks would be willing to Void the ticket and refund you, if you pointed out that you do not agree to the terms immediately after being sold the ticket and noticing the small print on the back

 

[fowler9]

Indeed. And what makes that argument all the more compelling is that the same principle applies far more widely than merely to transport operators.

Almost any transaction, or agreement that we enter into in our every day lives and which involves a corporate body, an institution or even a tradesperson, will have Conditions, limitations, warranties, exceptions and waivers. And we all know that to be true, whether it is buying, leasing, licensing, renting, gambling, investing, contracting, etc.

It beggars belief that any one would not be expecting Conditions etc. to be applied to Rail Travel.

Meanwhile back in the real world the bloke in the station tells you to get a ticket on the train instead and you get an £80 fine. Come on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You are supposed to be allowed to inspect the NRCoC at stations, but your experience may differ.

In any case, I'm sure most clerks would be willing to Void the ticket and refund you, if you pointed out that you do not agree to the terms immediately after being sold the ticket and noticing the small print on the back

Most clerks don't know what is on the small print or that they can't just send you on to the train without a ticket because they have been out at the shops.