Refunds for overcrowding?

[tony_mac]

The document you reference is the authors thesis, and as such whilst not decrying her work, I opine that it is therefore her intellectual proposition, which incidentally references five other works to all of which the author has contributed.

Those are just the papers in which the author would have published parts of her doctoral thesis prior to completion. This is perfectly normal (in fact, desirable) and shows that some portions of the work have already been peer-reviewed.
It does not mean she is just using herself for references - the list of actual references is at the back.

 

[cjmillsnun]

You buy it when you turn up at the station and you find out after you have paid for it though. That was my question really. It was just out of interest really, I know the score anyway and am not trying to gain an advantage.

You're more than welcome to ask for a copy of the NRCoC at any staffed station and read it before you buy a ticket.

EDIT: I really should read through the entire thread. I can see that point has been made already.

 

[fowler9]

You're more than welcome to ask for a copy of the NRCoC at any staffed station and read it before you buy a ticket.

EDIT: I really should read through the entire thread. I can see that point has been made already.

Yeah mate, perhaps make that clear before selling people tickets. Which again was my point. I sometimes wonder if people actually want the railways to stay in business when they think everyone popping in to town checks all of the terms and conditions and that the person selling the ticket really gives a damn. From my local station you can get tickets which include a morning and evening peak exclusion. Local PTE tickets which only include a morning peak exclusion. Local PTE tickets which have no exclusion and I have even been asked what I normally pay to Ribblehead and London Euston.

Last Saturday I had a member of staff who said the ticket machine wasn't working and to get one on the train. I was on shaky ground right away. The guard on the train didn't know the code for the ticket I wanted and I can see myself getting on to shakier ground. This was a day after the same chap was out at the shops during the evening peak.

Now I have said many times over the last couple of days that I am fine and know where I stand but I keep getting replies off people saying it is all the consumers fault and they should have checked the various bylaws before travelling. Maybe they should but when the staff are giving them conflicting information who do you think they should believe. I'd just get off and pay more to get the bus. Is that what you want for the railways?

I don't want an argument at the station or to have to take photo's of staff or ticket machines but this has been suggested.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And by the way, before you ask why I don't complain I do. I got four free days travel passes across the whole Northern network a while back. Every time I used one the people at the ticket barriers or on the trains said they weren't even going to ask how I got them. They were all very friendly and helpful though. The reason I got them was bus replacements on the last Liverpool to Manchester train of the night not stopping anywhere they were meant to and Northern having to pay for Taxis to 3 different destinations for me and 2 friends. It wasn't really Northerns fault, they just used a shoddy bus company.

But fair enough, if you just want to tell everyone they should look at the terms and conditions online whenever they buy a ticket I will go along with that.

 

[Bob Ames]

Just out of interest what is the legal standing on getting a seat. I've looked at countless tickets Ive got dotted around and none of them clearly state it is for travel alone and not for a seat.

Perhaps the new ticket format could add the basics from NRCoC?

 

[fowler9]

Perhaps the new ticket format could add the basics from NRCoC?

Yeah mate, as I have said time and time again in the unlikely event that a ticket said this would it advise the person buying it before they bought it? All I have seen so far is snarky comments about what the NRCoC might say after you paid the cash. It sounds a bit like "You've paid the money now, tough sh*t"

In the unlikely event that a member of staff is in my local station to sell you a ticket is there anything to warn you of this information beforehand. I always fooled myself that rail enthusiasts were actually really intelligent people. All I have seen so far this evening is person after person sounding like David Camerons best mate and that if you didn't know all the bylaws before hand then its tough titty. So much for anyone who just wants to catch a train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps the new ticket format could add the basics from NRCoC?

Can you read, I mean really. As in what Ive said already? Can you answer a sensible question?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Meanwhile back in the real world the bloke in the station tells you to get a ticket on the train instead and you get an £80 fine. Come on

I stand by what I posted in response to you.
I'm quite sure I do live and work "in the real world" which is precisely why I would expect any person in that world to know that any transaction would have conditions attached. Don't you think that the more one lives 'in the real world' then the less sympathy they should expect for thinking that a supply or service doesn't come with Terms & Conditions? - which was your presumption.

 

[Llanigraham]

Fowler9,
Do you read every word of the small print on your Insurance policies, or any other document before you sign?

 

[PG]

Those are just the papers in which the author would have published parts of her doctoral thesis prior to completion. This is perfectly normal (in fact, desirable) and shows that some portions of the work have already been peer-reviewed.
It does not mean she is just using herself for references - the list of actual references is at the back.

Ah, okay I stand corrected, thanks.

 

[jon0844]

I think fowler9 has a bee in his bonnet about his local station, given the references to staff not being there and spotted out shopping.

I would expect that any member of staff out at the shops is not on duty at the time!

It's laughable that because someone might not ask to see the T&Cs in advance, or actually take the time to read them, it's possible to just assume that they don't exist. I don't ask to read the terms when buying something in a shop, or getting a local bus - but I know they exist and accept that my ignorance doesn't mean I can claim any special rights when things go wrong.

Perhaps stations could have some sort of notice above the entrance (rather like showing the licensees of an establishment that can serve alcohol) saying that once you enter, you're bound by certain rules and regulations.

Perhaps there already are some such notices displayed somewhere to 'tick a box' and not necessarily easily noticeable? I'd have thought that any poster showing timetables would be a good place to put such a notice.

And still people wouldn't read such a notice.

And still people WOULD remain bound by them.

 

[island]

The Southeastern stations in my local area have posters up saying lots of things, including that travel is subject to the NRCoC.

I endorse DaveNewcastle's points above.

 

[1e10]

Perhaps the new ticket format could add the basics from NRCoC?

You've left room for people to complain about doors being locked 40 seconds before departure.

 

[sheff1]

When sold a ticket, you are at liberty to get on any train that ticket is valid for. If you think it's too crowded, then your option is to wait for the next train.

It comes down to personal choice, I'm afraid...

Not necessarily. There have been occasions when people have been refused admission to trains on which their ticket was valid.

 

[Flamingo]

Not necessarily. There have been occasions when people have been refused admission to trains on which their ticket was valid.

Don't start that again :roll:

 

[sheff1]

Why not ?

Categoric statements that people are at liberty to do something when that is patently not always the case need to be challenged.

I was personally refused access at Cardiff Central as the train was supposedly 'too overcrowded'. The only personal choice I had in the matter was whether to risk arrest or not.

 

[fowler9]

I think fowler9 has a bee in his bonnet about his local station, given the references to staff not being there and spotted out shopping.

I would expect that any member of staff out at the shops is not on duty at the time!

It's laughable that because someone might not ask to see the T&Cs in advance, or actually take the time to read them, it's possible to just assume that they don't exist. I don't ask to read the terms when buying something in a shop, or getting a local bus - but I know they exist and accept that my ignorance doesn't mean I can claim any special rights when things go wrong.

Perhaps stations could have some sort of notice above the entrance (rather like showing the licensees of an establishment that can serve alcohol) saying that once you enter, you're bound by certain rules and regulations.

Perhaps there already are some such notices displayed somewhere to 'tick a box' and not necessarily easily noticeable? I'd have thought that any poster showing timetables would be a good place to put such a notice.

And still people wouldn't read such a notice.

And still people WOULD remain bound by them.

Apologies about my rant yesterday but you are spot on, that is pretty much exactly what I was saying. And people just kept on replying saying well the terms and conditions say yadda yadda. Would it not be better if these terms and conditions were made clearer to passengers before they buy a ticket, if they can, rather than pointing out the small print on the back of the ticket they may or may not have purchased afterwards.

 

[Tibbs]

It would be interesting if the OP would explain how his "compensation for overcrowding" scheme would work.

I can see insuperable difficulties:

1. How is 'overcrowding' to be measured?
2. Who would be able to claim?
3. And what about journeys which are overcrowded for part of a journey?

The way I would look at it, using a technological solution.

Install CCTV on each train if not already there.
Hook CCTV up to a computer and deploy existing software used in supermarkets to count passengers as the enter and exit train.
Have a set value of loading on particular trains, routes & times
When this is exceeded by x, automatic announcement that 1st is declassified.
When exceeded by y, automatic announcement that due to overcrowding, all passengers on train at the time of announcement is entitled to compensation.
Announcement repeated between stops until passenger level drops below threshold.
Log automatic announcements with relevant TOC.
Process claims as per delay repay sending details of affected ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

Explain just one thing to me, please - Why will TOC's put themselves to the trouble and not inconsiderable expense of putting all this in place?

 

[Tibbs]

Explain just one thing to me, please - Why will TOC's put themselves to the trouble and not inconsiderable expense of putting all this in place?

For the same reason they participate in delay / repay, improve safety, run loss making services, because they're made to either through law or as a condition of their franchise.

I've made no assumption or comment as to the likelihood of this happening - that wasn't in the question I responded to, just how I would do it if I were asked to implement it.

 

[Flamingo]

Why not ?

Categoric statements that people are at liberty to do something when that is patently not always the case need to be challenged.

I was personally refused access at Cardiff Central as the train was supposedly 'too overcrowded'. The only personal choice I had in the matter was whether to risk arrest or not.

You are confusing personal choice with crowd control, I think. It might be your choice to try and squeeze onto an already crowded train, but if the operator has crowd control measures in place, they are not allowing you that choice, but are making the decision not to let you for your own safety.

The OP is saying they had no choice about boarding the train.

I presume you eventually got on a train?

 

[sheff1]

You are confusing personal choice with crowd control, I think. It might be your choice to try and squeeze onto an already crowded train, but if the operator has crowd control measures in place, they are not allowing you that choice, but are making the decision not to let you for your own safety.

I am not confusing anything. You made a categoric statement that, if in possession of a valid ticket, you were at liberty to get on any train - no caveats. Your latest post confirms that in some circumstances the passenger might not have such liberty. It would appear, then, that we are in agreement so I don't know why you told me 'don't start that again'.

 

[Flamingo]

I am not confusing anything. You made a categoric statement that, if in possession of a valid ticket, you were at liberty to get on any train - no caveats. Your latest post confirms that in some circumstances the passenger might not have such liberty. It would appear, then, that we are in agreement so I don't know why you told me 'don't start that again'.

The original "Don't start that again" was because I thought you were referring to wierd combinations like RJ uses, I will admit.

If I said "attempt to get on any train" would that be acceptable?

 

[sheff1]

The original "Don't start that again" was because I thought you were referring to wierd combinations like RJ uses, I will admit.

Ah ... I see. That, of course, is a completely different discussion

If I said "attempt to get on any train" would that be acceptable?

I think the point is that, with overcrowding, you can (attempt to) get on any train unless an authorised person prevents you doing so on the grounds of safety. If they do prevent you I would expect the normal Delay Repay / Compensation arrangements to apply.

If you chose not to get on train when no one is actually preventing you from doing so then I do not see any formal grounds for compensation ... although Customer Services may take pity on you if you complain.

 

[Rich McLean]

Sometimes if you have an advance ticket, and the train arrives full and standing where the guard can't let no more on (Crosscountry), or your at Cardiff after the Rugby, being on your booked train goes out of the window. In this instance, you should be allowed to travel on the next service/service they put you on with that advance ticket, albeit, no seat reservation.

I have had it happen to me at New Street Before, where I had to wait for the next XC train, but luckily I managed to get my ticket endorsed so I could travel on the next service, which was also full.

 

[fsmr]

Oh I love it, I was sitting on the floor of Intercity 125s back in the 80s running home on evenings in the 80s to Leicester. and back in 1987, the wife often ended up getting a first gen DMU cab ride or in with the guard on the Narborough Leicester route due to overcrowding , or that was her excuse !!Not surprising when the 31 hauled mk1s got filled when they were on let alone 2 car DMUs
The Alternative would be to have airline type seating tickets and gateline technology but you would still need someone on board to police it and then half the passenger wouldn't get a ride and UK PLC would come to a stop overnight But I really like the ide of claiming fuel back for traffic jams How can I apply?

 

[Flamingo]

I see that the posters in Cardiff for the rugby say a queueing system will be in place, and reservations are not valid. Nobody has told the on-train staff that, though!

 

[6Gman]

The way I would look at it, using a technological solution.

Install CCTV on each train if not already there.
Hook CCTV up to a computer and deploy existing software used in supermarkets to count passengers as the enter and exit train.
Have a set value of loading on particular trains, routes & times
When this is exceeded by x, automatic announcement that 1st is declassified.
When exceeded by y, automatic announcement that due to overcrowding, all passengers on train at the time of announcement is entitled to compensation.
Announcement repeated between stops until passenger level drops below threshold.
Log automatic announcements with relevant TOC.
Process claims as per delay repay sending details of affected ticket.

Well it's an answer so thanks for that.

However, I can't help feeling it would be a very complicated and expensive way to address the problem - and I doubt it would lead to anything improving!

 

[Rich McLean]

I see that the posters in Cardiff for the rugby say a queueing system will be in place, and reservations are not valid. Nobody has told the on-train staff that, though!

In theory then, if someone is forced to miss their booked train and then put onto yours with an advance ticket, you could charge them for a full price walk up ticket

 

[Flamingo]

Assuming one was bothered to go through a train on match day. Personally, if I get it from A to B without having to reset the Pascom or do an incident form I'm happy.

 

[jon0844]

The way I would look at it, using a technological solution.

Install CCTV on each train if not already there.
Hook CCTV up to a computer and deploy existing software used in supermarkets to count passengers as the enter and exit train.
Have a set value of loading on particular trains, routes & times
When this is exceeded by x, automatic announcement that 1st is declassified.
When exceeded by y, automatic announcement that due to overcrowding, all passengers on train at the time of announcement is entitled to compensation.
Announcement repeated between stops until passenger level drops below threshold.
Log automatic announcements with relevant TOC.
Process claims as per delay repay sending details of affected ticket.

Siemens have got the technology to monitor how many people are in any given part of a train, and relay that information on to be shown further up the line (and presumably via apps etc).

I have no idea if the Thameslink trains will have this, as I think it was featured in a video they did early on?

Whether this data could see first class automatically declassified is another matter, but it could certainly mean a record is kept of how busy any given service is - and that could be useful for planning future timetables, or understanding when there are some previously unpredicted flows (given surveys aren't done very often).

Apologies about my rant yesterday but you are spot on, that is pretty much exactly what I was saying. And people just kept on replying saying well the terms and conditions say yadda yadda. Would it not be better if these terms and conditions were made clearer to passengers before they buy a ticket, if they can, rather than pointing out the small print on the back of the ticket they may or may not have purchased afterwards.

Bear in mind, a pub must publish a price list of everything it serves. But that's usually quite a small bit of paper in a not particularly visible location.

As such, I wouldn't expect to see any warnings that would be THAT clear, but would still tick a box.

On a TVM, you can make people aware of the T&Cs and I suppose the ticket window itself might be able to have some sort of notice nearby to warn people too.

If you feel passionately about it, you've got a number of avenues you could go down - like writing to ATOC, the DfT and individual TOCs.

 

[radamfi]

Sometimes if you have an advance ticket, and the train arrives full and standing where the guard can't let no more on (Crosscountry), or your at Cardiff after the Rugby, being on your booked train goes out of the window. In this instance, you should be allowed to travel on the next service/service they put you on with that advance ticket, albeit, no seat reservation.

I asked Southern about this, and they said you have to buy a new ticket if your train was effectively cancelled because you were unable to board.