Electrification time scales update (North West)

[northwichcat]

Is this Bolton Wigan announcement part of a realisation we need to get rid of pacers? It seems almost directly wanting to achieve that. Electrification really is being taken very seriously by this government.

I'm wondering what effect Warrington-Chester electrification will have.

Obviously most Manchester-Warrington-Chester services continue to North Wales and it was suggested in the Northern Hub an extension of a Calder Vale service would provide an additional service to Chester, with the existing service being extended to the Airport all day.

If capacity at Slade Lane Junction is improved then instead of the previously proposed:
North Wales-Warrington-Manchester Airport (diesel)
Chester-Bradford-Leeds (extended diesel)
Chester-Altrincham-Manchester (existing diesel)
Greenbank-Stockport (new diesel)

We could have:
North Wales-Altrincham-Manchester (diesel semi-fast east of Chester)
Chester-Warrington-Manchester Airport (electric)
Chester-Warrington-Manchester (electric -additional)
Chester-Altrincham-Manchester (stopping diesel)

Then if you use the 150 freed up by Crewe-Chester going electric on the Mid-Cheshire stoppers that should only leave 1 Pacer on the Mid-Cheshire line left to replace.

 

[edwin_m]

Hunts Cross to Trafford would likely be done alongside Hazel Grove to Sheffield.

Putting the pieces together from the various RUS' and the Northern Hub plans if the above was done I imagine the end result would be:
* Liverpool to Doncaster (hourly electric)
* Liverpool to Nottingham (hourly electric)
* Manchester Airport to Norwich (diesel not via Sheffield)
* Sheffield to Cleethorpes (diesel)

The electrification RUS suggested ended the through service between Manchester and Cleethorpes, while the Northern Hub suggested a half-hourly Liverpool to Sheffield via Warrington service and somewhere else it was recommended that the Norwich service should avoid a Sheffield reversal to give a faster Nottingham-Manchester service.

Based on my recent journeys to Nottingham on trains that have originated from Liverpool I'd be very happy if they started at Manchester instead. The fast/slow mix and lack of overtaking on the CLC means that any small delay is magnified as the fast train is stuck behind a slow.

The electric service would have to run via Derby unless the Alfreton route was electrified too. Not necessarily a problem as it's not much slower that way although capacity may be a bit limited even after Derby is remodelled.

Manchester Airport to East Midlands via Crewe was tried previously and not very successfully. Extending it to Piccadilly wouldn't help much as it would be uncompetitive on journey time between Manchester and the East Midlands with the Hope Valley services.

 

[northwichcat]

Manchester Airport to East Midlands via Crewe was tried previously and not very successfully.

It was a Central service that was actually Manchester Airport to Skegness, provided poor punctuality and sometimes operated by a single 153. It also ended at a time when passenger numbers were dropping in general and the SRA made a decision to end that service.

Passenger numbers on local stations between Crewe and Manchester Airport have seen significant growth recently (50% more passengers now than they had 10 years ago) while the Airport station has seen 100% growth in the past 10 years.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The best news here is that the NW/TP/MML electrification is clearly now a rolling programme for the north, and they are looking at ways of accelerating it.
This is more important than which particular line is next, but the short list is a good start.

Note the Rail North participation for the first time in the planning process.
Also mention of Selby-Hull rather kicks the First electrification proposal down the road for another year.

Yet again, nothing on rolling stock.
It wouldn't surprise me if DfT have concluded that all the class 319 fleet will move north, and the planning now moves to exploiting that capacity.

 

[tbtc]

Very good news about Bolton - Wigan - surprised that this one has "slipped through the net" (and not been announced in the Autumn Statement etc).

So, with Kirby becoming a shuttle only as far as Wigan, would that mean a half hourly Southport - Wigan Wallgate - Atherton - Manchester* service? Would there be any problem with that?

If the above happened, that could mean around 90% of the capacity from Manchester to Bolton being provided by EMUs (i.e. everything but the hourly Blackburn service), which will be quite a capacity increase in the longer run.

Hopefully (as has been suggested by others), each infill will encourage more little infills - these are exciting times for the railway in northern England.

(* - without squabbling about whether the Southport services go to Rochdale/ Victoria/ Airport etc)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Very good news about Bolton - Wigan - surprised that this one has "slipped through the net" (and not been announced in the Autumn Statement etc).

So, with Kirby becoming a shuttle only as far as Wigan, would that mean a half hourly Southport - Wigan Wallgate - Atherton - Manchester* service? Would there be any problem with that?

The DfT announcement mentions Wigan NW-Bolton-Victoria/Airport electric services.
This might well mean Southport/Kirkby services via Wallgate only go to Victoria/Rochdale via Atherton.

Lostock Jn to Wigan Station Jn is only 6.5 miles by the way, so a pimple really on the overall electrification programme.
At £37m that's £6m per route mile of double track, which must now be the going rate.
I notice the previously not-quite-authorised Oxenholme-Windermere didn't get a mention.

Edit: The top-level DfT announcement includes a helpful picture of an electrified railway to make their point - only it's a 3rd rail line.

 

[WatcherZero]

Im wondering if behind the scenes this list of potential lines to be studied originates from the Electrification Refresh?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lostock Jn to Wigan Station Jn is only 6.5 miles by the way, so a pimple really on the overall electrification programme. At £37m that's £6m per route mile of double track, which must now be the going rate.

Would there be any chance of seeing Lostock railway station being made as a 4-platform junction station in order to take advantage of the facility offered by this new electrified service ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Im wondering if behind the scenes this list of potential lines to be studied originates from the Electrification Refresh?

I strongly suspect that is the case! It must be almost done, maybe at proof reading and finalising stage so that explains the definitive list.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Living in Kansas City as an expat Brit, all I can say is great news. It seems that more strategic thinking is taking place. Lets hope it keeps rolling (stock included - pun intended!)

 

[Chris125]

Although capacity bottlenecks will be relieved on the MSJ and at Piccadilly there will eventually be a lot more conflicting movements at Ordsall/Windsor Bridge and I would have thought consideration might be given to building a dive under or flyover to separate ManVic-Chat Moss trains from Man Oxford Rd-Salford Cres movements. There seems to be plenty of space for this.

IIRC a forum member 'in the know' has indeed stated that designs for an Ordsall Lane flyover have been drawn up and costed, and I'd be surprised if such a scheme wasn't a strong candidate for funding in CP6.

Chris

 

[Brian1947]

I note the use of the word "experts" from both NR and the DfT in the taskforce. Lets hope the DfT experts are not those where were involved in the West Coast franchising farce! If so then de-electrification may be the recommendation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

IIRC a forum member 'in the know' has indeed stated that designs for an Ordsall Lane flyover have been drawn up and costed, and I'd be surprised if such a scheme wasn't a strong candidate for funding in CP6.

Chris

When, if that funding is ever granted, will the Ordsall Lane flyover be fully constructed and carrying services. CP6 covers the period 2019-2024, which seems quite a way off in 2013.

 

[WatcherZero]

Guess the reason the electrification was announced today was because Cameron was visiting Bolton University

Also probably explains why Bolton News were the only ones who knew ahead of the annoucement, pre-briefed for his visit.

 

[Bevan Price]

Less so than some others, as the local services don't go off-route and the longer-distance ones are still likely to be diesels because they continue eastwards onto the Hope Valley. The only running under the wires is between Allerton and Lime Street. It is also tangled up with the question of whether Merseytravel might want to divert the local services onto the Merseyrail network, which would require either third rail to Warrington or (more likely) dual-voltage units as the Merseyrail replacement stock.

But it would be almost impossible to have Merseyrail Southport - Hunts Cross - Warrington trains every 15 minutes unless the CLC express services were withdrawn. The only feasible solution would seem to require alternate services to terminate at Hunts Cross.

As I understand the future arrangements, the proposals for Hope Valley expresses (after TPE full electrification) are probably for:

Liverpool - Sheffield - Nottingham / Norwich , hourly, route unchanged.
Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield, hourly routed via Marples line (but not stopping on that line: this is because of lack of paths via Stockport)

 

[northwichcat]

As I understand the future arrangements, the proposals for Hope Valley expresses (after TPE full electrification) are probably for:

Liverpool - Sheffield - Nottingham / Norwich , hourly, route unchanged.
Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield, hourly routed via Marples line (but not stopping on that line: this is because of lack of paths via Stockport)

I thought the original plan was to have a portion working leaving Sheffield and to split at Chinley with half going to Piccadilly and onwards to the Airport or Liverpool (via Warrington) and the other half going to Victoria and onwards to Liverpool (via Chat Moss) or Preston to increase the number of destinations available by direct train from Sheffield. However, with electrification plans that idea was scrapped.

 

[edwin_m]

But it would be almost impossible to have Merseyrail Southport - Hunts Cross - Warrington trains every 15 minutes unless the CLC express services were withdrawn. The only feasible solution would seem to require alternate services to terminate at Hunts Cross.

As I understand the future arrangements, the proposals for Hope Valley expresses (after TPE full electrification) are probably for:

Liverpool - Sheffield - Nottingham / Norwich , hourly, route unchanged.
Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield, hourly routed via Marples line (but not stopping on that line: this is because of lack of paths via Stockport)

I agree it would probably be two locals per hour to Warrington, as I can't see it sustaining any more and I think Warrington would prefer to have their fasts to Liverpool instead of more locals.

A Liverpool-Sheffield via Marple would have to cross the whole Piccadilly throat at Adwick, something the Northern Hub was intended to eliminate. Perhaps better to run the Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes by this route?

 

[IanXC]

Also mention of Selby-Hull rather kicks the First electrification proposal down the road for another year.

I think it'll be difficult for this one to be rejected now. Hull Trains have submitted their privately funded business case, for delivery by Q4 2016.

The Government will look very silly rejecting a project funded by a private company, delivered long before any alternative scheme, and which is being championed by Labour MPs.

Incidentally I've been meaning to post that the NR London North Eastern business plan states they are exploring options to deliver a limited amount of electrification around Selby by Autumn 2014(!)

 

[Kettledrum]

Man Airport-Norwich is an interesting idea. How about a completely new routing to Peterborough: Man-Stoke-Derby-Melton Mowbray-Peterborough(Norwich or even Stansted). This would link Man with E.Midlands Airport and Stansted, provide a new Derby-Manchester route etc.

Yes - I really like this idea. It would also be a good use for some of the DMUs displaced by the Northern electrification programmes. There's no mention of electrification of the Derby to Stoke line yet, so it would definitely need to be a diesel service.

More importantly, there's no mention of electrification of the XC route Derby to Birmingham yet either. I might have expected this section before some of the others, but it's being made to wait.

 

[edwin_m]

Electrification of Derby-Birmingham would only convert the hourly Nottingham-Birmingham to electric operation. To be worthwhile it really needs electrification of Sheffield to Doncaster/Wakefield and recasting of the XC timetable to create a Southampton-Newcastle/Scotland service, or a fleet of bi-modes on the XC services.

 

[snowball]

Incidentally I've been meaning to post that the NR London North Eastern business plan states they are exploring options to deliver a limited amount of electrification around Selby by Autumn 2014(!)

Does that have a particular purpose? I don't see how it would enable any electric services to run.

It would be nice nevertheless - a sign of things to come.

 

[IanXC]

Does that have a particular purpose? I don't see how it would enable any electric services to run.

It would be nice nevertheless - a sign of things to come.

Its accelerating the real reason for electrification to Selby in the first place - providing an electrified diversionary route from Doncaster via Hambleton Junction and Crossgates to Leeds. Its also possible that Temple Hirst Junction via Selby to Hambleton, and Hambleton via Gascoign Wood and Sherburn to Colton Junction is on the agenda to provide a diversionary route for the 2 track Selby diversion section of the ECML.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A Liverpool-Sheffield via Marple would have to cross the whole Piccadilly throat at Adwick

A Liverpool to Sheffield (via Marple) service that was passing through Adwick would be making a most unusual diversion..hock:

 

[L+Y]

Pretty interesting news.

It still means two DMUs under the wires in each direction from Southport to Manchester, though, unless the idea is that Southport trains get curtailed at Wallgate along with the Kirkby ones? I can't imagine that going down at all well, really: the Southport line isn't a rural branch like the nearby Kirkby and Ormskirk lines, but a well used and reasonably busy route.

Unless there are plans to electrify all the way through to Southport that'll be unveiled at some stage?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Pretty interesting news. It still means two DMUs under the wires in each direction from Southport to Manchester, though, unless the idea is that Southport trains get curtailed at Wallgate along with the Kirkby ones? I can't imagine that going down at all well, really: the Southport line isn't a rural branch like the nearby Kirkby and Ormskirk lines, but a well used and reasonably busy route. Unless there are plans to electrify all the way through to Southport that'll be unveiled at some stage?

Is there a future plan to give up the existing Manchester Airport to Southport diesel services ? Could these be routed via the Atherton line to cut down any future running under the wires should the Wigan to Southport line not be electrified.

 

[snowball]

Announcement here, it is part of the local pinch points funding series, 'Tranche 4':

Actually I think the terms "Pinch Point fund" and "Tranche 4" apply only to some of the road schemes announced today. Well yesterday now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its accelerating the real reason for electrification to Selby in the first place - providing an electrified diversionary route from Doncaster via Hambleton Junction and Crossgates to Leeds. Its also possible that Temple Hirst Junction via Selby to Hambleton, and Hambleton via Gascoign Wood and Sherburn to Colton Junction is on the agenda to provide a diversionary route for the 2 track Selby diversion section of the ECML.

Thanks. When you said "a limited amount of electrification around Selby" I assumed you meant too limited to complete any one of those.

 

[WatcherZero]

If anyone still had any doubts on the timing of the announcement....

 

[Manchester77]

With the recent announcements on further northern wiring will this mean that it's pretty much certain for all 319s to come up north and will operate as well as existing northern EMUs (321,322,323s) or will they be cascaded elsewhere as others have saiD?

 

[ianhr]

A Liverpool to Sheffield (via Marple) service that was passing through Adwick would be making a most unusual diversion..hock:

I assume the idea is to run via the Philip's Park line to Victoria and then via Chat Moss. NR plans show the Philip's Park line as scheduled for electrification and I have been wondering what was behind this apart from ecs, but if the Hope Valley line is to eventually be electrified if would enable a Sheffield-ManVic-LPL diagram this way with electric traction, or even Sheffield-Blackpool?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If anyone still had any doubts on the timing of the announcement....

I saw the main headline in the picture as...I want to stay-- Mac

Sports pages always being the headlines pages...