Electrification time scales update (North West)

[snowball]

The fact that Crewe-Chester and Warrington-Chester are both in the list, when other well-populated lines such as Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester and the Calder Valley are not, could be a clue that the North Wales coast line will be one of the next big announcements.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Good job you're not an engineer or anything like that......

Be right. At least if i do that i specified everything to be like 37/7 times stronger!

 

[northwichcat]

The fact that Crewe-Chester and Warrington-Chester are both in the list, when other well-populated lines such as Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester and the Calder Valley are not, could be a clue that the North Wales coast line will be one of the next big announcements.

But then it may not be. Currently if the North Wales to London and Manchester services switched to electric there would still be very few trains using wires between Llandudno Junction and Holyhead.

Virgin were looking at more efficient options of using Pendolinos on the North Wales Coast under diesel power, electrifying only as far as Chester would make that idea work even better, as only the 5tpd extended to North Wales would need a diesel loco attaching, which could be done at Chester in the time currently taking to split the pair of Voyagers.

I think for a good business case of electrification on the North West coast the Holyhead-Cardiff service will need to be cut, which could be done so that a Holyhead-Crewe service provides good connections with Cardiff services (a truncated Chester-Wrexham-Cardiff service and the Manchester-Crewe-Cardiff service) but it's not something the Welsh Assembly will really want to do.

 

[Whistler40145]

If you convert Salford Crescent to Crow Nest Junction for Metrolink & share to Wigan, therefore Metrolink stock would require conversion to dual voltage.

I think it's a rather large expense for such a short distance.

 

[bluenoxid]

I've always been surprised that Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester has not been identified for electrification. Is there something particularly obvious that stops this route from being a preferred option.

I think the thing that many have grasped but some have not is that services can be changed and this does not necessarily mean truncation or separation. Alternative routes can be put in place to keep efficiencies.

I think one of the many benefits of the short electrification of the line from Bolton to Wigan is that it provides a short turn back destination for the Bolton line, without it being Bolton. Wigan will have the benefit of fast trains via Newton Le Willows, Southport's via Atherton, and trains via Bolton. I assume the Bolton route will be the slowest of the three, so it is not going to be as desirable for them but it means that additional services can be concentrated around Bolton to Manchester without taking additional capacity.

I assume that DfT are looking at North Wales entrance routes to keep ahead of the WAG's desire to electrify the Holyhead route. It would be embarrasing to be caught on the hop.

Talking of Barrow, what is the plan for their Diesel services in the short/medium term. Is it likely that they will drop away from the Bolton route as soon as the wires go in, to keep them away from a busy route.

There is a desire (although how much there still is now is not something I know), to run East Coast Leeds services via Hambleton.

The London - Leeds - London services is just short of 4.5 hours and would allow East Coast to step up sets rather than sit them at Leeds waiting for a path south. In addition, the route would allow East Coast to shorten the journey times to Skipton, Bradford and Harrogate by ripping out the termination (can you still speed up the Skipton - London time by hopping across to the preceding London bound service at Leeds?)

 

[northwichcat]

I've always been surprised that Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester has not been identified for electrification. Is there something particularly obvious that stops this route from being a preferred option.

I don't think so. The Northern Hub plans seem to suggest both express services would run through to Sheffield post-Ordsall Chord, which makes the omission even more surprising and that the stoppers could be extended to Piccadilly and beyond after Piccadilly platform 15/16 get built to allow better cross-Manchester connections.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you convert Salford Crescent to Crow Nest Junction for Metrolink & share to Wigan, therefore Metrolink stock would require conversion to dual voltage.

I think it's a rather large expense for such a short distance.

If you look at the prices for TfGM's proposed tram-train schemes they are extremely expensive mainly due to TfGM preferring electric only tram-trains over hybrids and there being issues with using DC on National Rail.

Marple is priced at £200m based on 10 tram-trains per hour. That amount of money could buy you enough 172s to replace all of Northern's 142s which would be of much greater benefit to the North of England as a whole.

Wigan via Atherton is priced at £280m based on 10tph to Walkden and half of those continuing to Wigan.

Full prices P10 here: http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/capital_projects_and_policy_agenda_papers_8_11_13.pdf

 

[Anvil1984]

I've always been surprised that Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester has not been identified for electrification. Is there something particularly obvious that stops this route from being a preferred option.

I think the thing that many have grasped but some have not is that services can be changed and this does not necessarily mean truncation or separation. Alternative routes can be put in place to keep efficiencies.

I think one of the many benefits of the short electrification of the line from Bolton to Wigan is that it provides a short turn back destination for the Bolton line, without it being Bolton. Wigan will have the benefit of fast trains via Newton Le Willows, Southport's via Atherton, and trains via Bolton. I assume the Bolton route will be the slowest of the three, so it is not going to be as desirable for them but it means that additional services can be concentrated around Bolton to Manchester without taking additional capacity.

I assume that DfT are looking at North Wales entrance routes to keep ahead of the WAG's desire to electrify the Holyhead route. It would be embarrasing to be caught on the hop.

Talking of Barrow, what is the plan for their Diesel services in the short/medium term. Is it likely that they will drop away from the Bolton route as soon as the wires go in, to keep them away from a busy route.

There is a desire (although how much there still is now is not something I know), to run East Coast Leeds services via Hambleton.

The London - Leeds - London services is just short of 4.5 hours and would allow East Coast to step up sets rather than sit them at Leeds waiting for a path south. In addition, the route would allow East Coast to shorten the journey times to Skipton, Bradford and Harrogate by ripping out the termination (can you still speed up the Skipton - London time by hopping across to the preceding London bound service at Leeds?)

Hasnt the Skipton to London train been changed to go to Edinburgh via Donny now or am I imaging things

 

[IanXC]

Hasnt the Skipton to London train been changed to go to Edinburgh via Donny now or am I imaging things

As far as I know that's a one off on 27 December with Peterborough being closed for the day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think for a good business case of electrification on the North West coast the Holyhead-Cardiff service will need to be cut, which could be done so that a Holyhead-Crewe service provides good connections with Cardiff services (a truncated Chester-Wrexham-Cardiff service and the Manchester-Crewe-Cardiff service) but it's not something the Welsh Assembly will really want to do.

I have highlighted the point above that we as armchair theorists have to accept as something that is to be taken into account that is extraneous to other matters outside the jurisdiction of the Welsh Assembly. They have certain large projects in the south of Wales which will be in their minds for the foreseeable future.

 

[Manchester77]

With the wiring of the ECML - Middlesbrough section hopefully this will mean that M'boro won't lose their TPE services. Will this leave Scarborough as the only current TPE North destination which will remain diesel? Also there has been the idea of extending ECs York terminators bi-hourly to Scarborough and Middlesbrough, does this make it more plausible (at least for the M'boro services?)

 

[RhysTheBeast]

With the electrification of the Bolton to Wigan NW going ahead, what does this mean for Wallgate? Would it not be wise to look at Wigan's transport infrastructure and perhaps considering what would be a better use of Wallgate, seeing as traffic would be reduced throughout there from 2017 onwards.

 

[Anvil1984]

As far as I know that's a one off on 27 December with Peterborough being closed for the day.

Sorry senility in old age

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With the electrification of the Bolton to Wigan NW going ahead, what does this mean for Wallgate? Would it not be wise to look at Wigan's transport infrastructure and perhaps considering what would be a better use of Wallgate, seeing as traffic would be reduced throughout there from 2017 onwards.

Nothing stopping the Manchester - Atherton - Wigan Wallgate services to both Southport and to Kirkby from using the diesel-only route to both destinations.

 

[Bob Ames]

With the electrification of the Bolton to Wigan NW going ahead, what does this mean for Wallgate? Would it not be wise to look at Wigan's transport infrastructure and perhaps considering what would be a better use of Wallgate, seeing as traffic would be reduced throughout there from 2017 onwards.

There has been some discussion on merging the two stations, including re-locating the main bus station.

 

[Bevan Price]

I assume the idea is to run via the Philip's Park line to Victoria and then via Chat Moss. NR plans show the Philip's Park line as scheduled for electrification and I have been wondering what was behind this apart from ecs, but if the Hope Valley line is to eventually be electrified if would enable a Sheffield-ManVic-LPL diagram this way with electric traction, or even Sheffield-Blackpool?

No. I think the idea was to replace the TPE services via Warrington Central, enabling the CLC route to retain 2 expresses per hour after completion of TPE electrification.


For more details, see the Technical study that can be downloaded from this page:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/6474.aspx

(Page 50 of the document, but appears as page 26 of the pdf file)

 

[edwin_m]

If you look at the prices for TfGM's proposed tram-train schemes they are extremely expensive mainly due to TfGM preferring electric only tram-trains over hybrids and there being issues with using DC on National Rail.

Hybrids are unlikely to be obtainable. The design used in Kassel has turned out to be unreliable and expensive to run, and even a run-on of this design isn't possible because it doesn't comply with latest emissions standards. Basically nowhere on the Continent is interested in diesel hybrid tram-trains so anything for the UK would have to be a bespoke design at a big price premium and probably lots of teething troubles. Dual voltage tram-trains are relatively little extra cost, for example the Sheffield ones will be dual voltage because of the likelihood that the Rotherham line will be electrified during their lifetime (the tram-train part is to be 750V electrified using equipment that is easily convertable to 25kV).

Besides which, if people are talking about electrification of Hope Valley then the Marple route would probably be done at the same time. If the tram-train is done first it means the Hope Valley electrification only needs to fill in the short distance from Marple, and if the electrifcation is done first then the case for tram-train is improved. In that context buying diesel or DC-only tram-trains starts looking short-sighted. And of course it's only a feasibility study so if and when it went ahead the actual scheme could take account of any interesting developments in the meantime.

 

[Class377/5]

If you look at the prices for TfGM's proposed tram-train schemes they are extremely expensive mainly due to TfGM preferring electric only tram-trains over hybrids and there being issues with using DC on National Rail.

Marple is priced at £200m based on 10 tram-trains per hour. That amount of money could buy you enough 172s to replace all of Northern's 142s which would be of much greater benefit to the North of England as a whole

Seems your figures are off. According to Wiki there are 79x 142 (158 carriages) with Northern yet LM says the cost of 27x 172 cost £243m (for 69 carriages).

So your theory that the entire 142 fleet can be replaced for £200m is way off the mark.

And of course that's of you can order a DMU today with the changed spec at the same costs as a unit in 2007 when LM announced the 172 order. Highly unlikely.

 

[tbtc]

I remember trying to work out the "DMUs replaced" figures a year or so ago, and had to accept that the CP5 electrification wouldn't be enough to withdraw all Pacers (or make a dint into the 153 fleet). We could probably get rid of all 142s though (but 143s and 144s needed until 2024).

Recent announcements like "GOBLIN' and Bolton - Wigan have got me thinking that there's more chance of being "Pacer Free" in 2020.

There's mixed signals - one minute we hear that some "commitments" like the Valley Lines or the MML to Sheffield can't be completed in CP5 and will have to wait until the 2020s to be finished...

...then we have spare resources to do extra electrification like Bolton - Wigan in the next couple of years.

I've always been surprised that Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester has not been identified for electrification. Is there something particularly obvious that stops this route from being a preferred option

I don't think that there are any problems with the route - it'd be high up my choices - its just that there's so much to be done.

You could argue that Bolton - Wigan is the kind of simple "add on" that efficiencies in the other "Lancashire Triangle" works could accommodate - a simple seven miles to "free up" roughly seven Pacers.

Every little scheme improves the case for the next one though.

 

[Nym]

...then we have spare resources to do extra electrification like Bolton - Wigan in the next couple of years.

Thing is with doing Bolton - Wigan is that one can then have some 4/6/(8 with platform extentions) car EMUs replacing the current 2/4 car DMUs, helping significantly with the capacity issues on the Bolton corridor, not to mention diversionary routes and whatnot.

Also has the joyful situation that it needs no additional feeder stations (just size lostock up a bit) to run and pretty much eliminates 'slow' DMUs via Bolton. So can be a bonus for Kearsley and Farnworth by giving them an extra tph in the peaks if not all day.

 

[WatcherZero]

Just had a thought, Skelmersdale station is supposedly getting heavy NR backing for inclusion in CP6, part of the business plan for which is based on services to Manchester Airport, Manchester and Liverpool. Now before Wigan-Bolton was announced I was thinking it would be a diesel service, probably frequency raised to 2tph (to speed return on capital infrastructure cost) running via two of Bolton/Atherton/Chat Moss. Now it makes a lot more sense to have the spur electrified from the start (and run through to Wallgate) and run an electric Airport service and an electric Victoria service. It would only require about 4km of eletrification now Bolton-NW is done and would prevent the requirement for several diesels.

 

[BantamMenace]

i think i've seen somewhere that electrifying under the bridges at wallgate and on the approaches there too would be complex and thus expensive, not impossible though. I'd love to see the two wigan stations merged but it'd cause a lot of paths crossing the WCML

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont think theres specifically a height issue, the platforms are curved which prevents most 23m stock though. If your doing to North Western then Wallgates sidings would be a useful addition, lot of stock parks up there during the day.

 

[snowball]

i think i've seen somewhere that electrifying under the bridges at wallgate and on the approaches there too would be complex and thus expensive, not impossible though. I'd love to see the two wigan stations merged but it'd cause a lot of paths crossing the WCML

My impression was that the proposal to merge the two stations would leave the routes basically unaffected. The Southport line would still go under the "difficult" bridges and there would be no extra flat crossing of the WCML.

Have I completely misunderstood?

 

[WatcherZero]

No your right, theres already a connection between the stations.

 

[edwin_m]

i think i've seen somewhere that electrifying under the bridges at wallgate and on the approaches there too would be complex and thus expensive, not impossible though. I'd love to see the two wigan stations merged but it'd cause a lot of paths crossing the WCML

That may have been me further back on the thread. If it was elsewhere I'd be interested in getting some confirmation of my view!

There are indeed connections both ways between the WCML and the Manchester-Wallgate line just south of both stations. The connections are however only single lead, and the curvature of the Manchester line probably makes it impossible to double them. As well as introducing more flat crossings, linking down from the WCML to the Kirby line in particular would be very difficult, so I would expect Wallgate to continue with the present layout, with some changes to information and signage (perhaps even platform renumbering) so it is more closely integrated with North Western.

 

[northwichcat]

Seems your figures are off. According to Wiki there are 79x 142 (158 carriages) with Northern yet LM says the cost of 27x 172 cost £243m (for 69 carriages).

So your theory that the entire 142 fleet can be replaced for £200m is way off the mark.

And of course that's of you can order a DMU today with the changed spec at the same costs as a unit in 2007 when LM announced the 172 order. Highly unlikely.

Chiltern claimed they paid £2m per 172 so 2 x 79 is £158 million: http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/news/chiltern-commuters-celebrate-brand-new-trains-pull

Even if Chiltern paid more than they claimed it's worth remembering:
1. The larger the order, the cheaper the price per unit will likely be.
2. As I've pointed out before some Northern routes see pairs of 142s operating together which give a formation length of 62m, so a 3 car 172 could replace a pair of 142s on some services.

 

[HowardGWR]

That may have been me further back on the thread. If it was elsewhere I'd be interested in getting some confirmation of my view!

There are indeed connections both ways between the WCML and the Manchester-Wallgate line just south of both stations. The connections are however only single lead, and the curvature of the Manchester line probably makes it impossible to double them. As well as introducing more flat crossings, linking down from the WCML to the Kirby line in particular would be very difficult, so I would expect Wallgate to continue with the present layout, with some changes to information and signage (perhaps even platform renumbering) so it is more closely integrated with North Western.

I notice that HS2 is due to join the WCML south of Wigan. Thinking about the sinuous nature of the lines through that area, is there a list anywhere of the speed restrictions through from (say) south of Warrington to north of Wigan on the present WCML?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I notice that HS2 is due to join the WCML south of Wigan. Thinking about the sinuous nature of the lines through that area, is there a list anywhere of the speed restrictions through from (say) south of Warrington to north of Wigan on the present WCML?

First there are no tilt/EPS speeds from Acton Grange (south of Warrington) to north of Wigan, a distance of over 14 miles.
Speeds come down to 100 over the Ship Canal to 90 through Bank Quay station.
Then 80 at Dallam, back to 90 then 80 again at Winwick Jn, briefly back to 100 under the L&M, then down to 90 at Golborne Jn, and eventually 110 towards Wigan.

I have never understood why a better EPS speed profile has not been found, especially at Dallam, Winwick and Golborne.

 

[HowardGWR]

First there are no tilt/EPS speeds from Acton Grange (south of Warrington) to north of Wigan, a distance of over 14 miles.
Speeds come down to 100 over the Ship Canal to 90 through Bank Quay station.
Then 80 at Dallam, back to 90 then 80 again at Winwick Jn, briefly back to 100 under the L&M, then down to 90 at Golborne Jn, and eventually 110 towards Wigan.

I have never understood why a better EPS speed profile has not been found, especially at Dallam, Winwick and Golborne.

And through the Wigan LNWR area itself? BTW thanks very much. I just wondered whether the HS2 connection would not be better going over to a new line following the M6, which is itself a bypass of the area.

Actually I will repeat that question on the HS2 thread but an answer to my first will be much appreciated.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And through the Wigan LNWR area itself? BTW thanks very much. I just wondered whether the HS2 connection would not be better going over to a new line following the M6, which is itself a bypass of the area.

Actually I will repeat that question on the HS2 thread but an answer to my first will be much appreciated.

Wigan NW has a mile of 80mph.