Electrification time scales update (North West)

[northwichcat]

Cheshire & Warrington Local Transport Body have written a letter to Patrick McLoughlin recommending electrification of Crewe-Holyhead, Warrington-Chester and Trafford Park-Hunts Cross: http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.uk/ecminutes/documents/s30720/LTB Final Draft Response_2.pdf

 

[YorkshireBear]

Cheshire & Warrington Local Transport Body have written a letter to Patrick McLoughlin recommending electrification of Crewe-Holyhead, Warrington-Chester and Trafford Park-Hunts Cross: http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.uk/ecminutes/documents/s30720/LTB Final Draft Response_2.pdf

Im sure they have.... Can't see it changing the timescales at all really...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Cheshire & Warrington Local Transport Body have written a letter to Patrick McLoughlin recommending electrification of Crewe-Holyhead, Warrington-Chester and Trafford Park-Hunts Cross: http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.uk/ecminutes/documents/s30720/LTB Final Draft Response_2.pdf

Importantly, they are proposing a full HS2 Hub at Crewe (new station south of the current one).
It's also the "county" view and doesn't cover the local opposition to particular HS2 route impacts.
Basically they are saying build a full interchange at Crewe and electrify the rest of the county's lines from Crewe and Warrington.
Not sure what the "Warrington Arpley" scheme is.

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure what the "Warrington Arpley" scheme is.

I think this is the answer. It relates to a redevelopment scheme in Warrington to provide:
• 2000 new homes (40% affordable – 800 homes)
• Up to 1.5m sq ft of commercial space
• 70.1 ha of land brought back into use

Arpley Chord – A new section of rail line connecting the freight line to the east of the West Coast Mainline with the Warrington and Fiddler’s Ferry freight line. This chord is proposed to allow the removal of the current freight line running east from Bank Quay station towards Latchford. This has been identified within the masterplan as a main priority as it would remove a significant development barrier. In removing the track, we suggest its role as a non-traffic corridor would still be maintained if it were largely part of a segregated bus network.

http://www.warrington.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1922/waterfront_final_report_august_2008 (large pdf)

and electrify the rest of the county's lines from Crewe and Warrington.

Actually no as Crewe-Nantwich would not be electric.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

http://www.warrington.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1922/waterfront_final_report_august_2008[/url] (large pdf)
Actually no as Crewe-Nantwich would not be electric.

The Arpley Chord is interesting as it would eliminate the triangular reversal of coal trains at Latchford and free up some valuable land.
I think pretty much all the land needed for this is already in NR hands - they could do it now if they wanted to.
Maybe Warrington PSB is in the way at the moment!
It probably depends on the lifetime of Fiddlers Ferry PS.

Yes, some fag ends would be left, including Helsby-E Port as well, and the Mid-Cheshire line, but essentially all the main lines get wired.
The Warrington Central route is mentioned as well but it is unconnected to the rest of the plan or HS2.

 

[BantamMenace]

Does anyone have a likelihood of this Warrington redevelopment scheme going ahead along with a timescale?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone have a likelihood of this Warrington redevelopment scheme going ahead along with a timescale?

The report linked to above is from consultants and is dated 2008.
The recent LTB letter to the DfT as an HS2 response talks about the Arpley scheme and being an enabler for the main redevelopment.
So basically it seems nothing is funded yet, and this is intended to kick start it.
I suppose it amounts to a "Yes please" (to HS2) "only do it faster and deliver these extra benefits to Cheshire".

 

[WatcherZero]

Not the first time moving Crewe station from the centre to the outskirts has been suggested. The railway heritage impact would be sad though and it would be a planning nightmare to reconfigure the lines in the area, youve got track running away from the centre of Crewe in 6 cardinal directions. I guess most suitable site would be on and slightly south of the depot with a southern spur to HS2 and grade seperated links northwards to all the other lines, possibly having platforms east-west on a higher level above the north-south ones? Though if you moved it south the town centre would be on the opposite side of the town to the station while its already a bit of a trek!

Actually thinking about the work involved I think even if you started right now you would be hard pressed to finish by their 2020 target.

 

[northwichcat]

Though if you moved it south the town centre would be on the opposite side of the town to the station while its already a bit of a trek!

Actually thinking about the work involved I think even if you started right now you would be hard pressed to finish by their 2020 target.

You almost need a new 'Crewe town' station with a shuttle service to/from the main Crewe station.

 

[HowardGWR]

Crewe has never needed a 'town centre' station. Having lived there, I don't think anyone would claim that, any more than they would for Stoke. Everyone goes to Manchester for such activity.

The station's chief function is as an interchange and park and ride IMO.

 

[The Planner]

I have have seen the fag packet drawings for that Crewe idea, say bye bye to Basford Hall if it ever goes ahead. HS2 would fly through the middle with the conventional lines being on the outside.

 

[northwichcat]

Crewe has never needed a 'town centre' station. Having lived there, I don't think anyone would claim that, any more than they would for Stoke. Everyone goes to Manchester for such activity.

The station's chief function is as an interchange and park and ride IMO.

My post should have read

You'd almost need a new 'Crewe town' station with a shuttle service to/from the main Crewe station.

And I was basing that on Crewe station being relocated and the town centre being 2-3 miles from the station.

 

[WatcherZero]

I spent years using Stoke station and I can tell you that was a pain in the ass because of its placement, Crewe was my interchange station and while I often stretched my legs on the bridge I very rarely walked into town.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I spent years using Stoke station and I can tell you that was a pain in the ass because of its placement, Crewe was my interchange station and while I often stretched my legs on the bridge I very rarely walked into town.

Indeed, Crewe railway station and Crewe bus station are perfect examples on unconnected transportation systems with a goodly amount of distance between them.

 

[HowardGWR]

Indeed, Crewe railway station and Crewe bus station are perfect examples on unconnected transportation systems with a goodly amount of distance between them.

Indeed. I remember when John Prescott (may his name be blessed) first proposed 'Integration' in his 1998 white paper, the journos were all asking what that meant. Railway stations rarely manage to be in their city or town centres, for many reasons, but having buses outside awaiting changing pax is the norm abroad. Perhaps that this less well arranged here in many locations, still, is an indictment of the failure of integrated transport policy.

 

[WatcherZero]

9 trains an hour between manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly, so yeah there is a lot of capacity.

 

[northwichcat]

9 trains an hour between manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly, so yeah there is a lot of capacity.

Is that not a reply to http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1672129&postcount=688 in another thread?

 

[6Gman]

Importantly, they are proposing a full HS2 Hub at Crewe (new station south of the current one).
It's also the "county" view and doesn't cover the local opposition to particular HS2 route impacts.
Basically they are saying build a full interchange at Crewe

I would be fascinated to see the site plan for this "full HS2 Hub at Crewe". If it exists! And very sceptical that it could be built by 2020!

I was actually a councillor in the area the last time moving Crewe station to Basford Hall was suggested, and sat through a presentation by consultants who explained that "it'll be like Warrington, where you catch an Inter City train to Bank Quay and then change onto a local train to take you to the Central Station".

I put them right on that one!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed, Crewe railway station and Crewe bus station are perfect examples on unconnected transportation systems with a goodly amount of distance between them.

Indeed. I remember when John Prescott (2 Jags Prescott) first proposed 'Integration' in his 1998 white paper, the journos were all asking what that meant. Railway stations rarely manage to be in their city or town centres, for many reasons, but having buses outside awaiting changing pax is the norm abroad. Perhaps that this less well arranged here in many locations, still, is an indictment of the failure of integrated transport policy.

Preston is another archaic example. It is not far off a 1 mile walk from the Railway station to the bus stattion.

I love Britain - but oh my god do we need some politicians with VISION

 

[6Gman]

Preston is another archaic example. It is not far off a 1 mile walk from the Railway station to the bus stattion.

I love Britain - but oh my god do we need some politicians with VISION

Ah, but do you design the network around the majority - who use the bus to go to work or shopping and want the town/city centre, or the minority who want to travel to the railway station?

In some areas you can do both, but in others it would be very difficult.

 

[lancastrian]

If you look at the prices for TfGM's proposed tram-train schemes they are extremely expensive mainly due to TfGM preferring electric only tram-trains over hybrids and there being issues with using DC on National Rail.

Marple is priced at £200m based on 10 tram-trains per hour. That amount of money could buy you enough 172s to replace all of Northern's 142s which would be of much greater benefit to the North of England as a whole.

Wigan via Atherton is priced at £280m based on 10tph to Walkden and half of those continuing to Wigan.

Full prices P10 here: http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/capital_projects_and_policy_agenda_papers_8_11_13.pdf

To be brutally honest I cannot understand our 'Pillock' Politicians obsession with either untried or proven pointless transport systems in this country. To wit, Tram-train and Guided Busways.

Both of these systems tend to isolate the route in question from most other public transport systems and if you are making a route a 'Tram-Train' route then the Trams have to be crash worthy enough to withstand crashing into a heavy rail train. To me this is just daft, if they have to be strong enough to use heavy rail, then lets just electrify the route as normal.

Alternately just transfer the route to the local Light Rail operator, for example Metrolink in Manchester where it has worked well with the Bury, Altrincham, Oldham & Rochdale routes, plus where they have used former heavy rail trackbeds. Similar with Croyden Tramlink, Nottingham, Birmingham and Sheffield Tram Systems.

Many more routes could have either been electrified or even converted to Light Rail with the money that has been wasted on the various Tram-Train 'trials and tribulations', including consultants fees. Plus the money wasted so far on the Cambridge and Dunstable Guided Busways and will be wasted on the Leigh Guided Busway.

We need those who are supposed to be our elected representatives to get the collective fingers out of their backsides and start to be serious about electrification and light rail, and to forget about the failed systems of Tram-train and Guided Busways.

Just my personal view. Sits back and gets ready to duck when the responses start to fly.

 

[tbtc]

We need those who are supposed to be our elected representatives to get the collective fingers out of their backsides and start to be serious about electrification and light rail, and to forget about the failed systems of Tram-train and Guided Busways

Okay then, I'll bite...

...which Tram-Trains have failed in your opinion? T&W Metro to Sunderland?

...and which Guided Busways have failed in your opinion? The Cambridgeshire one seems rather busy...

The "heavy rail is the only possible answer to any problem" argument really doesn't convince me.

 

[Bevan Price]

I love Britain - but oh my god do we need some politicians with VISION

I fear you will have a very long wait.

What we seem to get are people who promise one thing to get elected, then do something different if they get elected. Plus some others who seem to do the bidding of whoever makes the best donations to party funds.

 

[northwichcat]

if you are making a route a 'Tram-Train' route then the Trams have to be crash worthy enough to withstand crashing into a heavy rail train. To me this is just daft, if they have to be strong enough to use heavy rail, then lets just electrify the route as normal.

Alternately just transfer the route to the local Light Rail operator, for example Metrolink in Manchester where it has worked well with the Bury, Altrincham, Oldham & Rochdale routes, plus where they have used former heavy rail trackbeds. Similar with Croyden Tramlink, Nottingham, Birmingham and Sheffield Tram Systems.

Have you ever travelled to Altrincham on the tram? There's a bottleneck between Timperley and Altrincham due to Metrolink and Heavy Rail having to run on segregated track and it means southbound trams, in particular, are very slow on the last section.

If you don't want tram-trains (which are a solution to that) how do you solve the bottleneck

Compulsory purchase orders of property to allow the track to be quadrupled?

Or turning the Metrolink line back to heavy rail?

I think tram-trains are the most viable option to solve that issue even though I think in terms of improving the service between Northwich, Knutsford and Manchester I think an extension of the Airport spur is the best solution.

 

[edwin_m]

Both of these systems tend to isolate the route in question from most other public transport systems and if you are making a route a 'Tram-Train' route then the Trams have to be crash worthy enough to withstand crashing into a heavy rail train. To me this is just daft, if they have to be strong enough to use heavy rail, then lets just electrify the route as normal.

Alternately just transfer the route to the local Light Rail operator, for example Metrolink in Manchester where it has worked well with the Bury, Altrincham, Oldham & Rochdale routes, plus where they have used former heavy rail trackbeds. Similar with Croyden Tramlink, Nottingham, Birmingham and Sheffield Tram Systems.

Many more routes could have either been electrified or even converted to Light Rail with the money that has been wasted on the various Tram-Train 'trials and tribulations', including consultants fees. Plus the money wasted so far on the Cambridge and Dunstable Guided Busways and will be wasted on the Leigh Guided Busway.

Why should tram-train create isolation in the public transport network? When used properly it allows through journeys between destinations on the railway and the tramway without having to change en route.

Speaking as one of the consultants you mention, I agree there have been a lot of tram-train proposals where it is essentially a solution looking for a problem. As you say, if the route would only carry tram-train services then it is probably better to convert it to light rail. However for a tram-train to be appropriate there has to be some reason why trains still need to use the route. Tram-trains are also more expensive per passenger than trains, so to be the best value they have to achieve major benefits from through running onto a tramway section to reach somewhere important that the railway doesn't serve. You will see from the foregoing that tram-train is more a niche product than a widespread solution to the problems of the public transport network.

You are also incorrect on the subject of crashworthiness. A tram-train is not build to railway structural standards, but usually to an intermediate strength between trains and trams. The greater severity of collision risks is offset by reducing the likelihood of these risks, by providing enhanced TPWS or other train protection systems to effectively eliminate SPAD-related collisions on tram-train routes.

 

[Greybeard33]

...in terms of improving the service between Northwich, Knutsford and Manchester I think an extension of the Airport spur is the best solution.

But would there be enough residual users to sustain the existing hourly Mid-Cheshire line service via Altrincham and Stockport, after most Cheshire - Central Manchester passengers switch to the Airport route? If not, the losers would be the substantial minority of passengers (especially schoolkids) who currently use the connectivity provided by this service for more diverse journeys that do not start or finish in Central Manchester.

 

[WatcherZero]

Local stopper, 2tph over the old route with an interchange built at Baguley (usage could probably sustain two short trains per hour as the existing one is pretty full), rest of long distance traffic diverted via new airport line which would then have the paths to expand the number of destinations served.

 

[lancastrian]

Okay then, I'll bite...

...which Tram-Trains have failed in your opinion? T&W Metro to Sunderland?

...and which Guided Busways have failed in your opinion? The Cambridgeshire one seems rather busy...

The "heavy rail is the only possible answer to any problem" argument really doesn't convince me.

Well I accept that the Tyne & Wear seems to be working OK, but I don't know enough about it to comment. Although personally it might have been better to route the Metro via Washington and then along the current route until it reached Sunderland that way. I am not sure what the amount of usage is along the shared route by Northern Rail.

My comments about Tram-Trains came from the prevarication that is taking place over actually trying it out in South Yorkshire, I hate to think how much has been wasted so far.

The Cambridge Busway is reasonably well used, BUT it has had its problems, parts of it are already being needed to be renewed, according to what i have read in the Local papers (online that is). Plus when is get to the end of the Busway, it hits all the traffic and congestion into Cambridge itself. It would have made far more sense to reopen the old railway line and link in with the main rail network at Cambridge.

I actually didn't say that Heavy Rail was the answer to all problems, I said that using either Heavy Rail or Light Rail made more sense. If I did not make myself clear, I apologise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you ever travelled to Altrincham on the tram? There's a bottleneck between Timperley and Altrincham due to Metrolink and Heavy Rail having to run on segregated track and it means southbound trams, in particular, are very slow on the last section.

If you don't want tram-trains (which are a solution to that) how do you solve the bottleneck

Compulsory purchase orders of property to allow the track to be quadrupled?

Or turning the Metrolink line back to heavy rail?

I think tram-trains are the most viable option to solve that issue even though I think in terms of improving the service between Northwich, Knutsford and Manchester I think an extension of the Airport spur is the best solution.

Well my answer to that is very simple. Also it is very cheap. Just terminate the Metrolink at Timperley and return the rest of the route to Heavy Rail, double track of course.

I agree that an extension from the Manchester Airport station would make good sense and then the Mid Cheshire services could be routed that way allowing Metrolink to be double track through Navigation Road.

Plus if the new line from the Airport Station followed the route of the M56 and joined the Mid Cheshire line just before Astley Station., then the Metrolink could be extended to Hale to retain a service from here to Manchester. It could even be extended to a platform interchange at Astley to maintain a link from the Metrolink southwards.

 

[Manchester77]

Well my answer to that is very simple. Also it is very cheap. Just terminate the Metrolink at Timperley and return the rest of the route to Heavy Rail, double track of course.

are you being serious? You say 'just terminate' implying it's very easy to terminate at Timperly. It's quite awkward when compared with the set up at other end of line termini (so this obviously excludes Piccadilly, Victoria, Cornbrook) so you'd have to install crossovers at the end facing Sale. Then what, you've double tracked for the 1tph through navi but people in suburban manchester and the city centre who use the tram to go to Altrincham find themselves having to change onto the bus despite, while being less than ideal, the existing single track section operating fairly well. Furthermore I don't think you know the full benefits behind the TfGM TT proposal for the Altrincham line. While yes one obvious benefit is the removal of the navi bottleneck, the other was the ride quality. Even I who loves the M5000s thinks that compared with other line the ride quality on the Altrincham line is poor. The TT proposal also delivers ride quality improvements as well as removing the bottleneck.

However I want to know; how do you think terminating metrolink at Timperly will effect passenger flows and what you propose do to connect it reply with navi and alty

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Plus if the new line from the Airport Station followed the route of the M56 and joined the Mid Cheshire line just before Astley Station., then the Metrolink could be extended to Hale to retain a service from here to Manchester. It could even be extended to a platform interchange at Astley to maintain a link from the Metrolink southwards.

Would I be right in thinking that you really meant to say Ashley and not Astley in those two instances in your quote above, as the station at Astley closed in 1956.