First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Are Thornton's doing work on any other First deckers at the moment?

 

[winston270twm]

Are Thornton's doing work on any other First deckers at the moment?

I think they may have also done/be doing the 53-reg Trident/ALX400's currently going in to First Somerset

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62459482@N05/11736337023

 

[Robertj21a]

First Leicester is, reportedly, having some problems getting the E400s ready for service. They've missed their planned launch date despite drivers being type trained.

Robert

 

[winston270twm]

Does anyone have any idea what First Groups UK bus total fleetsize is now? As I've lost track, I'm thinking it's circa 6000 buses? anyone confirm or correct?

With the 425 new buses on order, that would imply that First Group is working on a 14+ year vehicle life, which isn't that great.

 

[cainebj]

Does anyone have any idea what First Groups UK bus total fleetsize is now? As I've lost track, I'm thinking it's circa 6000 buses? anyone confirm or correct?

With the 425 new buses on order, that would imply that First Group is working on a 14+ year vehicle life, which isn't that great.

In today's Route One it's stated they have 6340 vehicles, and the 425 new buses will bring their average fleet age down to just over 9 years, with First having an aim to reduce the average fleet age to 8 years over the next 3 years.
It also says that the majority of the StreetLite order is for the 11.5m StreetLite Max. The Micro Hybrid version costs £6000-9000 more than the standard diesel models but First are expecting to recover the additional cost over 2 years of fuel savings, from the 9.6% fuel saving achieved by the two trial buses, and with the additional BSOG available for the micro hybrids in England and Scotland.

 

[winston270twm]

In today's Route One it's stated they have 6340 vehicles, and the 425 new buses will bring their average fleet age down to just over 9 years, with First having an aim to reduce the average fleet age to 8 years over the next 3 years.
It also says that the majority of the StreetLite order is for the 11.5m StreetLite Max. The Micro Hybrid version costs £6000-9000 more than the standard diesel models but First are expecting to recover the additional cost over 2 years of fuel savings, from the 9.6% fuel saving achieved by the two trial buses, and with the additional BSOG available for the micro hybrids in England and Scotland.

Thanks for that, I've seen the article but not had chance to read it yet

 

[overthewater]

I just cant see how there are going to archive the fleet age of 8 years unless one of the orders over the next two years will be for 800 new buses.

Will First have the cash to spend this in 2015 or 2016?

 

[Deerfold]

I just cant see how there are going to archive the fleet age of 8 years unless one of the orders over the next two years will be for 800 new buses.

Will First have the cash to spend this in 2015 or 2016?

Do you mean "achieve"?

Presumably these 425 buses are replacing some very old buses so are having more of an effect on the average.

Working on an average working life of 16 years (so an average fleet age of 8 years) and a fleet size of 6340 6430 you'd need 397 401 new buses a year.

Presumably with the slightly longer current average life and slightly larger order that's enough to tip the average from 9 to 8 years over the next couple of years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I just cant see how there are going to archive the fleet age of 8 years unless one of the orders over the next two years will be for 800 new buses.

Will First have the cash to spend this in 2015 or 2016?

Ooops. That pre-supposes that you had a consistent average vehicle intake.

There was a lot of investment in 1998-2000 - hence why you had a lot of R-V reg stuff. Then you had a lower levels of investment over 2000-2003 so not as many W-03 plates. Therefore, if you have 800-900 elderly vehicles that are disportionately raising the age profile, replace them and it has a disproportionate benefit the other way!

Somewhere like First Somerset and Avon is a classic case, having a number of R and S reg Darts and B10BLEs, plus a number of sundry Darts and other bits and pieces. Very little in the intervening period arrived, save a few B7TLs and B6s so wiping out the oldest kit will have a marked benefit.

Remember, there's a lot of very elderly fleet out there so get rid of the worst of it will probably have a great say on the average age

 

[Robertj21a]

At least there won't be ex-London cascades to confuse the issue in future, so there's no excuse for not having a sensible vehicle replacement programme. The DDA compliance timetable will also be out of the way in the next couple of years so, again, they should be able to plan better in future years.

Of course some investors are trying to get First Group split up anyway.

Robert

 

[winston270twm]

Do you mean "achieve"?

Presumably these 425 buses are replacing some very old buses so are having more of an effect on the average.

Working on an average working life of 16 years (so an average fleet age of 8 years) and a fleet size of 6340 you'd need 397 new buses a year.

Presumably with the slightly longer current average life and slightly larger order that's enough to tip the average from 9 to 8 years over the next couple of years.

According to Routeone, First Group UK bus fleet actually comprises 6430 buses, not the 6340 quoted.

 

[Deerfold]

According to Routeone, First Group UK bus fleet actually comprises 6430 buses, not the 6340 quoted.

Cheers. I've updated my figures.

 

[BestWestern]

Why this endless obsession with average fleet age!? A Wright Renown-bodied B10BLE - in my opinion the finest vehicles Barbie has ever bought - even on an R or S plate, can still give just as quality a passenger experience as it's brand new equivalent, assuming it is properly maintained in suitable condition. I will admit that I do find it deeply impressive that First has managed to sustain it's massive fleet of Pointer 2 Darts of the same vintage to still offer a reasonably decent package after so long, when R reg or similar age examples elsewhere are often long gone, particularly bearing in mind the generally poor standars of upkeep which is apparent throughout the UK Bus operation. No doubt their impressive spec has helped greatly, bus as ever I completely fail to appareciate the business logic of spending far more than is required on 'high end' assets and then spending as little as possible on maintaining their quality status!? In other words, why not buy base-spec in the first place if the 'business plan' is to run them into the ground? Stagecoach can present vehicles costing considerably less in a far more favourable light, and indeed they generally do in just about ever situatuon where a direct comparison can be drawn.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why this endless obsession with average fleet age!? A Wright Renown-bodied B10BLE - in my opinion the finest vehicles Barbie has ever bought - even on an R or S plate, can still give just as quality a passenger experience as it's brand new equivalent, assuming it is properly maintained in suitable condition. I will admit that I do find it deeply impressive that First has managed to sustain it's massive fleet of Pointer 2 Darts of the same vintage to still offer a reasonably decent package after so long, when R reg or similar age examples elsewhere are often long gone, particularly bearing in mind the generally poor standars of upkeep which is apparent throughout the UK Bus operation. No doubt their impressive spec has helped greatly, bus as ever I completely fail to appareciate the business logic of spending far more than is required on 'high end' assets and then spending as little as possible on maintaining their quality status!? In other words, why not buy base-spec in the first place if the 'business plan' is to run them into the ground? Stagecoach can present vehicles costing considerably less in a far more favourable light, and indeed they generally do in just about ever situatuon where a direct comparison can be drawn.

Some fair points there. I think there's a couple of things really...

Firstly, the thing about fleet age is that inevitably even good kit gets older and some things cannot be readily fixed. Chassis corrosion is one example where you can steam clean and treat on those areas that you can reach but not the areas hidden away. Then you have the problem of parts becoming harder to source etc. Maintaining them just gets more and more expensive.

There are other issues hidden from passengers, such as running an old fleet often results in higher absenteeism and the like.

As regards First and their maintenance/presentation of the fleet, I can only agree with you. I just think that they specified high quality vehicles as a laudable attempt to raise standards. Then they got distracted by UK Rail and then Laidlaw and that soaked up management time and cash, and I think that the sliding of standards was then inevitable. Perhaps I'm being overly kind but I don't think they set out to run the kit into the ground; it just happened because of other events (though that is not to excuse them - architects of their own downfall)

 

[Robertj21a]

Why this endless obsession with average fleet age!? A Wright Renown-bodied B10BLE - in my opinion the finest vehicles Barbie has ever bought - even on an R or S plate, can still give just as quality a passenger experience as it's brand new equivalent, assuming it is properly maintained in suitable condition. I will admit that I do find it deeply impressive that First has managed to sustain it's massive fleet of Pointer 2 Darts of the same vintage to still offer a reasonably decent package after so long, when R reg or similar age examples elsewhere are often long gone, particularly bearing in mind the generally poor standars of upkeep which is apparent throughout the UK Bus operation. No doubt their impressive spec has helped greatly, bus as ever I completely fail to appareciate the business logic of spending far more than is required on 'high end' assets and then spending as little as possible on maintaining their quality status!? In other words, why not buy base-spec in the first place if the 'business plan' is to run them into the ground? Stagecoach can present vehicles costing considerably less in a far more favourable light, and indeed they generally do in just about ever situatuon where a direct comparison can be drawn.

Volvo B10M is excellent, but a heavyweight, so fuel costs will have become an increasing problem nowadays

R/S-reg won't be DDA compliant

Probably need another refurbishment to meet current standards

Corrosion and/or spare parts difficulties

Robert

 

[tbtc]

B10BLEs were good buses - First seemed streets ahead of competitors around fifteen years ago with these reliable high-specced vehicles. But they are pretty tired nowadays.

They'll be a hard act to follow, but they've not been well looked after (certainly the South Yorkshire ones haven't had much TLC/ cash spent on them) - First seem to be good at buying better buses but then neglecting them once they are no longer "boxfresh".

This thread has got me wondering about what FirstBus would have evolved into, if they hadn't had the distraction of rail - things seemed to go wrong for the bus division when they took their eye off the ball (because rail was more lucrative)? Maybe that's just my viewpoint, dunno.

 

[overthewater]

A question which does need to be resolved, are first wise to get rid of the double glazed bus window. Why doesn't ADL simply this on most of it buses. Does it really increase the weight of the buses?

 

[mbonwick]

Of course it does...you double the amount of glass per vehicle with double glazing!

Glass being more dense than glass reinforced plastic (of whatever variety), means that you aim to have as smaller windows as you can get away with (reference the new Gemini 3).

 

[DunsBus]

Of course it does...you double the amount of glass per vehicle with double glazing!

Glass being more dense than glass reinforced plastic (of whatever variety), means that you aim to have as smaller windows as you can get away with (reference the new Gemini 3).

And it was only the full and midi-size single deckers which were double-glazed, minibuses and double-deckers were single-glazed, along with any single-deckers bought from stock (i.e. the 61224-33 batch of Scanias).

 

[cainebj]

How do Enviro 400s compare to B9TLs in terms of maintenance? Volvo have a better reputation for reliability so presumably require less parts. Is there a big difference between the two in the cost of parts?

Just saw this comment now.
Spare parts for Volvos are generally more expensive, even more so when you buy genuine Volvo parts. Volvo are also known for having electrical problems, having much more complicated electrical systems on modern Volvos compared to ADLs, which can often require specialist Volvo assistance to repair, at extra cost.
There's lots of talk around that Volvos are more reliable, but really a bus is only as reliable as the quality of maintenance it receives and how intensively it's used. It'd be better to replace parts before they completely wear our and cause problems, usually fine for smaller operators who generally have more time for maintenance, but it's harder for large operators who use their fleet intensively, especially when they decide to leave the part to break completely before replacing it, which can cause further problems and increase the downtime used to judge vehicle reliability.

 

[david16]

And it was only the full and midi-size single deckers which were double-glazed, minibuses and double-deckers were single-glazed, along with any single-deckers bought from stock (i.e. the 61224-33 batch of Scanias).

Those 52 reg Solars.

My goodness. They have firm seating that are terribly uncomfortable. It's ridiculous that bus companies ordered batches of several buses with hard seats in large numbers for a few years.

Travelling in them all the way from Edinburgh to Carlisle, or from Edinburgh to Dunbar or from Falkirk to Glasgow is an excrutiating experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

B10BLEs were good buses - First seemed streets ahead of competitors around fifteen years ago with these reliable high-specced vehicles. But they are pretty tired nowadays.

They'll be a hard act to follow, but they've not been well looked after (certainly the South Yorkshire ones haven't had much TLC/ cash spent on them) - First seem to be good at buying better buses but then neglecting them once they are no longer "boxfresh".

This thread has got me wondering about what FirstBus would have evolved into, if they hadn't had the distraction of rail - things seemed to go wrong for the bus division when they took their eye off the ball (because rail was more lucrative)? Maybe that's just my viewpoint, dunno.

It's a pity that First were denied the opportunity of operate their own combined bus/rail services with through fares or a First bus/rail return or day ticket when they won the scotrail contract..

It's also a shame that First Scotrail station ticket offices were not allowed to sell FirstMonth/First4Weeks or FirstYear bus season tickets or provide First bus timetables either.

 

[overthewater]

Thank Volvodart for the link

http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pdfs/investors/presentations/InvestorDay_presentation.pdf

Very good details about the USA, UK bus depends on the area.

Scotland covers 24% of its UK market: First Scotland East 6% of that share, ( unknown reason its called Mid and West Lothian, missing three other parts)

85 buses in Livingston depot, how many are operational?
34 buses in Muss

Another interesting fact: additionally – mid-life refurbishments of:
* 379 buses in 2013/14
* 273 buses in 2014/15: I wonder who will be getting these?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank Volvodart for the link

http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pdfs/investors/presentations/InvestorDay_presentation.pdf

Very good details about the USA, UK bus depends on the area.

Scotland covers 24% of its UK market: First Scotland East 6% of that share, ( unknown reason its called Mid and West Lothian, missing three other parts)

85 buses in Livingston depot, how many are operational?
34 buses in Muss

Another interesting fact: additionally – mid-life refurbishments of:
* 379 buses in 2013/14
* 273 buses in 2014/15: I wonder who will be getting these?

I'm assuming that the 379 buses for 2013/4 include the "standard" refurbs such as the relatively new (57/58 plate B9s) that were repainted in new First colours plus had their seating replaced. There were, of course, some specific refurbs for stuff like the X38 Bluebird and the X18 North Bristol.

Travelled on 51 plate B7RLEs a few times last year on Taunton area services and they were a) fitted with minimal padding and b) threadbare cloth. However, you'd think it might be stuff from 2004-2007 vintage?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Who did the refurbs for the Ex London 53 plated Tridents that Glasgow got?

Some of them still have the wheelchair backrest in front of the upper deck stairs, but yet some of them have the backrest next to the left wheel arch.

Wouldn't it have been easier to move the backrest to the wheel arch and upseat them right instead of having half upseated and half not?

 

[vicbury]

Thank Volvodart for the link

http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pdfs/investors/presentations/InvestorDay_presentation.pdf

Very good details about the USA, UK bus depends on the area.

Scotland covers 24% of its UK market: First Scotland East 6% of that share, ( unknown reason its called Mid and West Lothian, missing three other parts)

85 buses in Livingston depot, how many are operational?
34 buses in Muss

Another interesting fact: additionally – mid-life refurbishments of:
* 379 buses in 2013/14
* 273 buses in 2014/15: I wonder who will be getting these?

Thanks for posting that, an interesting read. Particularly the case studies for UK bus. I, for one, am keenly looking forward to smart ticketing, the amount of times I have walked instead of taking the bus because I had no spare change is huge!

 

[overthewater]

I'm assuming that the 379 buses for 2013/4 include the "standard" refurbs such as the relatively new (57/58 plate B9s) that were repainted in new First colours plus had their seating replaced. There were, of course, some specific refurbs for stuff like the X38 Bluebird and the X18 North Bristol.

That number better NOT included the X38 Bluebird since nothing was spent on doing them up. All that was done was repaints, no new seats, floor etc neither were there any deep cleans...

I dare say the number does included the Aberdeen deckers which were done up.

Who did the refurbs for the Ex London 53 plated Tridents that Glasgow got?

Depends on which ones? 100 were done by Thornton.

 

[F1Ken]

Does anyone know where the 05 reg Dennis Trident 2 Alexander ALX400's have come from in colchester? All in new livery and quite clean inside, they replace the Volvo Olympians on certain routes?

Is Lowestoft a possibility??

 

[90sWereBetter]

Does anyone know where the 05 reg Dennis Trident 2 Alexander ALX400's have come from in colchester? All in new livery and quite clean inside, they replace the Volvo Olympians on certain routes?

Is Lowestoft a possibility??

They're actually Volvo B7s, and they came from Lowestoft where they were used on the X2 route until the route was upgraded with the cascaded Geminis from the X1 a couple of month ago. Believe they were used in Norwich when new on city services.

 

[F1Ken]

They're actually Volvo B7s, and they came from Lowestoft where they were used on the X2 route until the route was upgraded with the cascaded Geminis from the X1 a couple of month ago. Believe they were used in Norwich when new on city services.

Oh! Thanks for that. They look in pretty good condition to me, compared to most of the crap around our area.

 

[Polo Mint]

It looks like at least one First Oldham Optare Solo is having a refurb, including newly painted handrails.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46868364@N04/12056386114/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/46868364@N04/12056387984/

(these are not my pictures, I found them on another forum)