First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

Why would student fares increase at a different rate? Looks like they'll be a cascade of ex Leicester midlife kit to get rid of a lot of dross. However, some new kit might be nice...

No new kit scheduled for Potteries (or Leicester). The 35 'new' deckers arriving at Leicester are actually 5 years old ex-London.

Robert

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No new kit scheduled for Potteries (or Leicester). The 35 'new' deckers arriving at Leicester are actually 5 years old ex-London.

Robert

That was the motive behind my comment about having some new kit, rather than 5 year old reallocations. The e400s at Leicester are the ex Dagenham 58 plates so it is an improvement but some new investment might be good. In truth, I'd expect some new vehicles in 2014 for places such as Potteries. No insight - just a hunch!!

 

[overthewater]

What is the official name of the Potteries, A wee look at the accounts might give us the information we need. 35 pretty new deckers is still a welcome boost to Leicester, and to many passengers may think said deckers are brand new.

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/firstgroup-s-70m-order-for-425-green-vehicles-1-3271374

FirstGroup’s £70m order for 425 ‘green’ vehicles

There will be 425 new fuel efficient vehicles.

by FRANK URQUHART

Published on the
16 January
2014
18:03

ABERDEEN-based transport giant FirstGroup today announced a massive £70 million order for 425 new fuel efficient vehicles for its bus division in the UK.


First’s order, which includes six electric vehicles, represents the biggest ever investment in new buses in the UK, for services outside London, and brings the company’s total investment in 2,000 new vehicles to around £310million over four years.

All but six of First’s new buses will be manufactured in the UK with Ballymena based Wrightbus winning the largest contract. First has placed an order for 301 Wrightbus vehicles including 274 of its “StreetLite Micro Hybrid” buses, one of the most fuel efficient buses on the market.

A spokesman for the international transport group said: “First and Wrightbus have worked in partnership throughout 2013 to test, trial and develop the Micro Hybrid buses. They are diesel vehicles which incorporate an innovative new on board hybrid system improving fuel efficiency by around ten per cent. FirstGroup will be the first company to operate these new buses.”

Giles Fearnley, managing director of First UK Bus, said: “This is the biggest order on record for services entirely outside London. We operate in 40 of the UK’s largest towns and cities and our investment will help support the communities we serve."

“This order is great news for our customers and underlines our commitment to growing our business and encouraging more people to use our services and use them more often.”

He continued: “Our groundbreaking partnership with Wrightbus will deliver unsurpassed levels of fuel efficiency, which, until recently few within in the bus industry would have believed possible. In 2013 we laid down the gauntlet to bus manufacturers to work with us to minimise fuel consumption."

“Wrightbus embraced that challenge and together we’ve developed its StreetLite Micro Hybrid product. I am immensely proud of our collective achievements and we’re very much looking forward to being the first operator to take delivery of these revolutionary new vehicles.”

As part of the new order Falkirk based ADL has secured a contract for 97 new vehicles including 60 double-deckers. Leeds company Optare will manufacture 21, including six electric vehicles, and Volvo Group UK will build six coaches.

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The trading update that was supposed to be on the 23rd January has been brought forward to today (unusual for a Friday).
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http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/latest_news/?id=010601

All First’s new buses will be fitted with EURO V engines and will feature wi-fi and ELeather seats as standard. The details of the order are:
Manufacturer Model Quantity
ADL Enviro 200 37
ADL Enviro 400 60
Optare Solo 15
Optare Versa 6
Volvo Plaxton 6
Wrightbus StreetLite Micro Hybrids 274
Wrightbus StreetLite 27


About Micro Hybrids
Wrightbus’ “Micro Hybrid” recovers braking energy, but rather than use it to directly benefit propulsion as in full hybrid systems, this energy is stored in storage systems already on board and is used to power pneumatics, hydraulics and electrical items. These components would otherwise require power from the engine and, by using the energy harvested from the braking system, reduces overall fuel consumption by around 10%.

 

[oldman]

I notice the large proportion of hybrids. My impression was that companies were not buying hybrids in large numbers unless supported by government subsidies. Or am I wrong?

If not, is this a sign that hybrids are now seen as a good choice on commercial as well as environmental grounds ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I notice the large proportion of hybrids. My impression was that companies were not buying hybrids in large numbers unless supported by government subsidies. Or am I wrong?

If not, is this a sign that hybrids are now seen as a good choice on commercial as well as environmental grounds ?

Assuming that I'm reading this right, it isn't the same type of hybrid.

Those (such as Enviro 350H or 400H) have a dual propulsion system so uses regenerative energy stored from braking for moving the vehicle and so reducing emissions.

This design doesn't have a dual propulsion but a conventional drivetrain. The difference is that the ancillary requirements of the bus are undertaken using regenerative energy. This means the engine doesn't have to work as hard and that reduces fuel consumption (and therefore reduce emissions as well?)

However, I'm no engineer so feel free to correct me

 

[mbonwick]

Correct. The 'micro-hybrid' idea only powers the ancilliary electrics - so much less kit is required. Obviously this delivers smaller fuel savings than a full blown hybrid, but it does qualify the vehicle for the enhanced BSOG (?) rate (its either BSOG or tax, something like that).

Surprised that First are stating them to be Euro V - as far as I'm aware, all new vehicles delivered after 31st December 2013 (i.e. now) have to be Euro VI....

 

[winston270twm]

Assuming that I'm reading this right, it isn't the same type of hybrid.

Those (such as Enviro 350H or 400H) have a dual propulsion system so uses regenerative energy stored from braking for moving the vehicle and so reducing emissions.

This design doesn't have a dual propulsion but a conventional drivetrain. The difference is that the ancillary requirements of the bus are undertaken using regenerative energy. This means the engine doesn't have to work as hard and that reduces fuel consumption (and therefore reduce emissions as well?)

However, I'm no engineer so feel free to correct me

TheGrandWazoo,

I read it the same as you, they will no be true Hybrids with the electric propulsion. Just that they have a standard diesel engine with a hybrid systems that creates a further 10% fuel saving.

It's notable that no full size single deckers have been ordered i.e. ADL E300's or B8RLE/Wright have been ordered

 

[tbtc]

It's notable that no full size single deckers have been ordered i.e. ADL E300's or B8RLE/Wright have been ordered

Do you reckon that this is the "get rid of Darts and other older midibuses" order?

Odd to see no Geminis either (?)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Do you reckon that this is the "get rid of Darts and other older midibuses" order?

Odd to see no Geminis either (?)

The orders are much as I thought you'd see. From having a policy of heavyweight single decks (B7RLE Eclipses), the last year has seen a focus on more lightweight machines whether they be Streetlites, E200s or Versas.

What you'll see is those replacing not only Darts or B6LEs but also heavyweight machines (e.g. Wright Renown B10BLEs/Scania L94s etc) of the vintage spanning R to V reg, I'd expect. Much in the way that Streetlite Maxs replaced B7RLEs on the intensive Bath to Bristol X39.

As regards the decker orders, they're a bit smaller than I'd anticipated but the e400 is very much the chosen decker design these days rather than the Gemini. Don't know if any Geminis came in 2013??

 

[Volvodart]

Surprised that First are stating them to be Euro V - as far as I'm aware, all new vehicles delivered after 31st December 2013 (i.e. now) have to be Euro VI....

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=8221&categoryid=0

[Significantly, all of the diesel buses will be powered by Euro 5 engines and are therefore due for delivery before the end of 2014 to take advantage of the National Small Series Individual Type Approval that is being deployed by all three UK-based manufacturers. This has allowed ADL, Wrightbus and Optare to continue to offer Euro 5 vehicles despite the fact that the European introduction date for Euro 6 was 1 January 2014.

A spokesperson for First says that the company has yet to conduct extensive trials with Euro 6 vehicles.

 

[winston270twm]

Do you reckon that this is the "get rid of Darts and other older midibuses" order?

Odd to see no Geminis either (?)

It looks that way, plus I'd expect First to take some small trial batches of Volvo B5TL/Wright or the Wright Streetdeck and possibly some B8RLE/Wright. As bigger single deckers & double deckers will still be required in future order over the next year or two

 

[Robertj21a]

First Group said, a couple of years ago, that they would be buying lighter weight buses in order to get improved fuel consumption. Volvo were, effectively, kicked out until such time as they modify their vehicles. First Group only buys Volvo if there's no realistic alternative (seemingly just coaches at present).

Robert

 

[winston270twm]

First Group said, a couple of years ago, that they would be buying lighter weight buses in order to get improved fuel consumption. Volvo were, effectively, kicked out until such time as they modify their vehicles. First Group only buys Volvo if there's no realistic alternative (seemingly just coaches at present).

Robert

The Volvo B5TL/Wright Eclipse & new Wright Streetdeck double deckers are both lighter weight the B5TL coming in at 11 tonnes with a 10% fuel saving. I understand the new B8RLE will also offer 10% weight savings.

Although the Streetlites maybe suitable for urban work, they may not be as good for long distance interurban work that is currently being operated by Scania & Volvo heavy duty full size single deckers

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Volvo B5TL/Wright Eclipse & new Wright Streetdeck double deckers are both lighter weight the B5TL coming in at 11 tonnes with a 10% fuel saving. I understand the new B8RLE will also offer 10% weight savings.

Although the Streetlites maybe suitable for urban work, they may not be as good for long distance interurban work that is currently being operated by Scania & Volvo heavy duty full size single deckers

Actually, and I was quite surprised, but the 63*** Streetlite Maxs that replaced DP spec Eclipses on the X39 Bristol to Bath are surprisingly robust. I too though they might be a bit "flimsy" but they're not bad. Whether they'll last 6 or 7 years being battered daily on that route (or similar), well I don't know.

Volvo may have missed the bus on this one.... First may well decided their preferred choices for the next few years though the selection of lesser numbers of e200s and Versas is a little strange.

More intriguing will be where they are allocated. Naturally, you'd expect the powerhouse fleets to get the lions' share of new kit (e.g. West Yorks, South Yorks, Glasgow, GM, Bristol and West) but what about those provincial fleets that haven't seen much in recent years? This is perhaps where the recovery plan gets really interesting!!

 

[smtglasgow]

Agree on the recovery plan getting interesting. Normally you would expect the new vehicles to go to the most profitable operating companies, releasing mid-life buses to the likes of Dorset, Cornwall etc. But the short-sightedness of the late Lockhead period means that there are very few suitable vehicles for cascade. Stagecoach have plenty darts from say 2004-2006, but there was a huge gap in orders of Dart-sized vehicles at First. I'm guessing we might see some very surprising allocations of vehicles, with some of the unloved subsidiaries gaining buses. The small number of deckers is surprising as well - I'd have thought that Bristol, Sheffield, Glasgow, Manchester and Leeds could all stake a claim for more vehicles, especially now the stream of London cast-offs has been cut. Interesting times.

 

[overthewater]

I can think of one company that's got no chance in heck of getting anything from that order... ( if it does it well be a very big surprise.)

 

[Surreyman]

I can think of one company that's got no chance in heck of getting anything from that order... ( if it does it well be a very big surprise.)

Would be very disappointed if Devon & Cornwall, Scotland East, the former Eastern Counties area or Potteries received any new vehicles, hopefully they will just cascade older vehicles to these areas to replace non DDA vehicles.
Incidentally, as they are upgrading some W & X reg d/decks to DDA spec, I wonder if they might do the same with similar aged Volvo/Scania single deck?
Good to see that Volvo are not getting any orders (just a few coaches).
I wonder, (2 years running)if ADL is giving them a better deal?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agree on the recovery plan getting interesting. Normally you would expect the new vehicles to go to the most profitable operating companies, releasing mid-life buses to the likes of Dorset, Cornwall etc. But the short-sightedness of the late Lockhead period means that there are very few suitable vehicles for cascade. Stagecoach have plenty darts from say 2004-2006, but there was a huge gap in orders of Dart-sized vehicles at First. I'm guessing we might see some very surprising allocations of vehicles, with some of the unloved subsidiaries gaining buses. The small number of deckers is surprising as well - I'd have thought that Bristol, Sheffield, Glasgow, Manchester and Leeds could all stake a claim for more vehicles, especially now the stream of London cast-offs has been cut. Interesting times.

The replacement policy was actually fairly reasonable until 2005. Then they reduced the spend to keep cash to help fund the Laidlaw deal and then had the struggle to make the payments!
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Would be very disappointed if Devon & Cornwall, Scotland East, the former Eastern Counties area or Potteries received any new vehicles, hopefully they will just cascade older vehicles to these areas to replace non DDA vehicles.
Incidentally, as they are upgrading some W & X reg d/decks to DDA spec, I wonder if they might do the same with similar aged Volvo/Scania single deck?
Good to see that Volvo are not getting any orders (just a few coaches).
I wonder, (2 years running)if ADL is giving them a better deal?

You make some intriguing comments. You don't like First (ok but odd for someone with Surreyman as a moniker) but why be disappointed if some areas get new buses? Also, why is it good that Volvo don't get any orders? Have they upset you?

In my experience, Volvo are pretty decent though they are heavyweight traditionally and that can be heavier on fuel (though not as thirsty as Scanias). Would suspect that some of the W/X/Y machines may already be DDA or will be modified. However, I expect that just because lightweight Streetlites, Versas and e200s have been ordered, don't think it'll just be Darts and B6LEs that bite the dust. Expect that the max length Streetlites will replace B10BLEs and L94UBs etc

 

[Robertj21a]

The replacement policy was actually fairly reasonable until 2005. Then they reduced the spend to keep cash to help fund the Laidlaw deal and then had the struggle to make the payments!
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You make some intriguing comments. You don't like First (ok but odd for someone with Surreyman as a moniker) but why be disappointed if some areas get new buses? Also, why is it good that Volvo don't get any orders? Have they upset you?

In my experience, Volvo are pretty decent though they are heavyweight traditionally and that can be heavier on fuel (though not as thirsty as Scanias). Would suspect that some of the W/X/Y machines may already be DDA or will be modified. However, I expect that just because lightweight Streetlites, Versas and e200s have been ordered, don't think it'll just be Darts and B6LEs that bite the dust. Expect that the max length Streetlites will replace B10BLEs and L94UBs etc

Only the Y-reg will have been DDA from new (perhaps a few late X-reg) so the W and X-reg will need modifying, or restricted to school contracts only.

I doubt if First will modify anything other than ALX400s. Presumably they've found a body type that will be cost-effective to modify, despite their age.

Robert

 

[winston270twm]

Would be very disappointed if Devon & Cornwall, Scotland East, the former Eastern Counties area or Potteries received any new vehicles, hopefully they will just cascade older vehicles to these areas to replace non DDA vehicles.
Incidentally, as they are upgrading some W & X reg d/decks to DDA spec, I wonder if they might do the same with similar aged Volvo/Scania single deck?
Good to see that Volvo are not getting any orders (just a few coaches).
I wonder, (2 years running)if ADL is giving them a better deal?

At some point, something has got to give and some of those subsidiaries will need some brand new buses for their busier core routes. Otherwise, how are they ever going to turn their fortunes around/reduced losses/grow the business with constant cascades of old worn kit. I though this kind of policy dated from Moir Lockhead days and times were changing within First?

FDC Plymouth & East Counties both have competition from Go-Ahead subsidiaries with more modern fleets, plus Ipswich also has competition
from council owned Ispwich Buses

 

[Surreyman]

The replacement policy was actually fairly reasonable until 2005. Then they reduced the spend to keep cash to help fund the Laidlaw deal and then had the struggle to make the payments!
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You make some intriguing comments. You don't like First (ok but odd for someone with Surreyman as a moniker) but why be disappointed if some areas get new buses? Also, why is it good that Volvo don't get any orders? Have they upset you?

Why odd? First operate into Camberley and anyway my interest has always been nationwide.
Volvo - personal prejudice mixed with a tiny piece of patriotism - ok most Manufacturers are multi-national 'assemblers' of parts.
Clearly I don't like First, so areas which I would like to see sold/closed down/ decline would cause me disappointment if they receive new buses.
Sentiment and prejudice aside, if i was an investor in First I would want to see investment in areas which clearly have a future.
It would seem that despite the best efforts of Firsts revitalised Management, FSE and D & C are fighting a losing battle, at some stage they are going to have to bite the bullet and make some hard decisions.
Good news just in, I note that First have lost a P & R contract in Cardiff to Cardiff Bus.

 

[overthewater]

Its been said First are just plugging a black hole with FSE until the Scotrail is sorted out.

I have a feeling ( hopeful a proper thread for scotrail will pop up) that First will win it again, and will quickly sell off part of the company.

 

[winston270twm]

Its been said First are just plugging a black hole with FSE until the Scotrail is sorted out.

I have a feeling ( hopeful a proper thread for scotrail will pop up) that First will win it again, and will quickly sell off part of the company.

I don't know..... I think NX will put in a strong bid to win the Scotrail Franchise, NX have recruited former First Scotrail boss Mary Grant to compile their bid & run the franchise should they be successful. She won the franchise off NX for First group originally & successfully ran the business

 

[overthewater]

I don't know..... I think NX will put in a strong bid to win the Scotrail Franchise, NX have recruited former First Scotrail boss Mary Grant to compile their bid & run the franchise should they be successful. She won the franchise off NX for First group originally & successfully ran the business

To be fair anyone was going to win that franchise of NX, at the time

 

[winston270twm]

To be fair anyone was going to win that franchise of NX, at the time

Why's that? Were NX/the Scotrail Franchise not performing back then?

 

[mbonwick]

I don't see that First having Scotrail (or not) has a massive effect on FSE?

Also, vehicles around V/W/X reg may not need to be modified to meet DDA spec, just certifying. From speaking to staff at Stagecoach, all that's needed to make a non-certified X reg MAN ALX300 compliant is to install an integrated ramp, and send it for certification. My point being, that depending on the spec, they may already be compliant (just lacking the paperwork).

 

[Surreyman]

I don't see that First having Scotrail (or not) has a massive effect on FSE?

Also, vehicles around V/W/X reg may not need to be modified to meet DDA spec, just certifying. From speaking to staff at Stagecoach, all that's needed to make a non-certified X reg MAN ALX300 compliant is to install an integrated ramp, and send it for certification. My point being, that depending on the spec, they may already be compliant (just lacking the paperwork).

Interesting comment mbonwick, I have always suspected this might be the case, I can't believe that a vehicle registered in say late 2000 can be fundamentally different in specification to one registered in January 2001.
Of course come 31/12/2015, (or 2016 for D/deck) these vehicles will be 15 or more years old and might be replaced anyway on grounds of age and/or condition.
Of course some vehicles age better than others and there is bound to be demand in the secondhand market which companies like Ensign are able to supply (their adverts offer upgrades to DDA spec on 1999/2000 Tridents & B7TLs).
I note that many operators of Optare Solos seem to be happy running the early versions of these vehicles, which must have been designed for forthcoming DDA.

 

[Robertj21a]

Interesting comment mbonwick, I have always suspected this might be the case, I can't believe that a vehicle registered in say late 2000 can be fundamentally different in specification to one registered in January 2001.
Of course come 31/12/2015, (or 2016 for D/deck) these vehicles will be 15 or more years old and might be replaced anyway on grounds of age and/or condition.
Of course some vehicles age better than others and there is bound to be demand in the secondhand market which companies like Ensign are able to supply (their adverts offer upgrades to DDA spec on 1999/2000 Tridents & B7TLs).
I note that many operators of Optare Solos seem to be happy running the early versions of these vehicles, which must have been designed for forthcoming DDA.

Not at all sure how the early Solos (R/S-reg can have been designed for DDA, which wasn't introduced until some years later.

Robert
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I don't see that First having Scotrail (or not) has a massive effect on FSE?

Also, vehicles around V/W/X reg may not need to be modified to meet DDA spec, just certifying. From speaking to staff at Stagecoach, all that's needed to make a non-certified X reg MAN ALX300 compliant is to install an integrated ramp, and send it for certification. My point being, that depending on the spec, they may already be compliant (just lacking the paperwork).

That may well be true of a particular type but MAN/ALX 300 are hardly the most common buses in the UK. The angle of the floor is understood to be a key issue, quite apart from the angle of the ramp itself, plus the wheelchair bay and the back rest (which must meet stress tests). No doubt any extra bell pushes etc can be easily added.

In any event, a 15 year old bus may not be worthwhile upgrading. I see that Brighton & Hove are already withdrawing 02-reg deckers which would be a more cost-effective option for some operators to buy.

Robert

 

[chubs]

Eastern Counties badly need new busses. The only nice stock is operating the 25 and X1 routes, everything else is ancient. The single deckers especially are a sorry state.

Anglian and Konnect (Go Ahead) and Norfolk Green (Stagecoach) have much newer and better maintained vehicles. I think if Anglian restarted their old hospital routes they would actually take a lot of First's customers this time.