First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

Loss on property is an exceptional and should be excluded from any profit/loss going forward.

0.4% profit there by my reckoning, again a long way from a healthy state of affairs.

Yes, the loss on sale of property is a one off exceptional cost.

It was a £61k operating profit, you then have £42k interest & charges to come off that plus the profit will be taxable, in the finish the figures will be barely breakeven. It was always thought the WR was a highly profitable operation for First, but it seems to not be the case now at least. Even the year prior WR & HD made a £498k operating profit on turnover of £15.534 Million with a profit of £391k after tax, interest & charges.

It doesn't look as though it would take much for Wyvern to go in to the red, and the proposed cuts by Worcester Council will not help the situation:

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/10785134.88_bus_services_facing_the_chop/

 

[455driver]

they're really limited to only dropping the price of fares. Even then that's likely to result in an initial drop in takings, before the unit volumes recover.

Why does everyone think that lowering fares will mean more people travel on the buses, I will catch a bus when I need to whether its 1p or £5, the fare is irrelevant, its the need that matters.

 

[mbonwick]

It's not people like you though that fare reductions attract - it's people for whom the ownership of a car is marginal.
For a good few people I know, cutting fares would get them onto the buses (and they've said so themselves), because it would become cheaper than using a car to get to work/wherever.

 

[winston270twm]

Why does everyone think that lowering fares will mean more people travel on the buses, I will catch a bus when I need to whether its 1p or £5, the fare is irrelevant, its the need that matters.

Cutting the price of First Day / Week & Month tickets will make bus travel more competitive against other forms of transport and potentially lead to increased passenger numbers by reducing the daily cost of bus travel. Cutting cash fares by 10 or 20p isn't going to make any difference.

 

[overthewater]

I think 1st April 2014 will be make or break time for the FSE.

 

[Stan Drews]

I think 1st April 2014 will be make or break time for the FSE.

Why? What is going to happen on that day?

 

[overthewater]

Why? What is going to happen on that day?

Thats when the next accounts will finish, I dare say First will have a very good idea just before hand IF the company has many any progress, to make it worth while holding on for another year.

 

[Stan Drews]

Thats when the next accounts will finish, I dare say First will have a very good idea just before hand IF the company has many any progress, to make it worth while holding on for another year.

Like all major companies (and any decent small ones) they will know how the business is performing on a period by period basis. The end of the financial year simply allows them to comply with the necessary regulations regarding filing annual company accounts, and effectively tells the world what the company will have known for some time.
So 1st April will have no relevance whatsoever to any decisions First may make with regards to FSE, or any other part of the Group.

 

[Volvodart]

With the Scotrail franchise submissions being due Spring 2014, I would have thought that First in Scotland would have been on their best behaviour until the new franchisee is decided in the Autumn, if they want to hold onto it.

 

[overthewater]

I take it Transport Scotland will take into account First group bus companies in the area once again but will Transport Scotland also take into account the financial problems which has plagued certain parts?

 

[Surreyman]

Pleasing news on the operating profit/loss results at FSE & Wyvern.(I don't like Firstbus).
I have just returned from a visit to Edinburgh where a street inspection of many FSE vehicles seems to indicate that their body-shop repair facilities must consist of one man with a hammer!
Ok the vehicles in new livery were ok but the others just looked battered and tatty, dents, scrapes, scratches, ill fitting engine panels, faded paintwork etc.
I guess FSE has stopped all 'unnecessary expenditure'.
Presumably under the new regime the management of these subsidiaries will have been set target timescales to turn these companies around, if they fail to do so, will they try and sell or close them down?
Hereford is so small I wonder why they don't just pull out?
I am guessing the Stagecoach and Go-Aheads may have looked at FSE and not liked what they saw.
There is a huge political price to pay in closing or shrinking a loss making (or at least a marginal profit making) Bus company, particularly when you wish to bid for Rail franchises as another poster has mentioned.

 

[overthewater]

To be fair have the trouble started because of the Rail Franchise and its controls routes.

 

[winston270twm]

Pleasing news on the operating profit/loss results at FSE & Wyvern.(I don't like Firstbus).
I have just returned from a visit to Edinburgh where a street inspection of many FSE vehicles seems to indicate that their body-shop repair facilities must consist of one man with a hammer!
Ok the vehicles in new livery were ok but the others just looked battered and tatty, dents, scrapes, scratches, ill fitting engine panels, faded paintwork etc.
I guess FSE has stopped all 'unnecessary expenditure'.
Presumably under the new regime the management of these subsidiaries will have been set target timescales to turn these companies around, if they fail to do so, will they try and sell or close them down?
Hereford is so small I wonder why they don't just pull out?
I am guessing the Stagecoach and Go-Aheads may have looked at FSE and not liked what they saw.
There is a huge political price to pay in closing or shrinking a loss making (or at least a marginal profit making) Bus company, particularly when you wish to bid for Rail franchises as another poster has mentioned.

It will be interesting to see in the next set of accounts for Wyvern whether there has been any negative impact due to the separation / sale of RH & KR from WR & HD i.e. through journey's can no longer be made on the same companies buses making First day / week & month less attractive. Having seen the figures for Wyvern, First screwed up by not selling off the entire Wyvern operation, they would have got a much more interest / attractive price for the loss making elements of RH & KR lumped in with the profitable bits.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It will be interesting to see in the next set of accounts for Wyvern whether there has been any negative impact due to the separation / sale of RH & KR from WR & HD i.e. through journey's can no longer be made on the same companies buses making First day / week & month less attractive. Having seen the figures for Wyvern, First screwed up by not selling off the entire Wyvern operation, they would have got a much more interest / attractive price for the loss making elements of RH & KR lumped in with the profitable bits.

Don't know if I agree with you on that Winston. The problem was that anyone who was looking at Wyvern as a whole would be inheriting a bus war in Redditch and a loss maker in Kiddie.

Also, not certain who would be buying. Stagecoach might have a problem given their ownership of C&G and MRS. Arriva haven't shown any appetite, and neither have NXWM (and they've had their own issues to sort in terms of fleet replacement). That then brings the usual old suggestions of newcomers like RATP but they are even less likely to get involved in a firm with a bus war on the go. So in a way, they could actually received LESS by trying to offload KR and RH by lumping in WR and HD to sweeten the pill.

Instead, they probably only had Rotala to sell to and Rotala perhaps only wanted the northern bit/limited access to funds. Now Wyvern doesn't have the worst fleet in First in terms of age (mostly DDA but getting middle aged). What they need to do is improve the ridership in Worcester and develop that city network. In Hereford, it's trickier but they need more vehicles to absorb the fixed overhead of the depot, and with some modest school workings, they've made a start on that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pleasing news on the operating profit/loss results at FSE & Wyvern.(I don't like Firstbus).
I have just returned from a visit to Edinburgh where a street inspection of many FSE vehicles seems to indicate that their body-shop repair facilities must consist of one man with a hammer!
Ok the vehicles in new livery were ok but the others just looked battered and tatty, dents, scrapes, scratches, ill fitting engine panels, faded paintwork etc.
I guess FSE has stopped all 'unnecessary expenditure'.
Presumably under the new regime the management of these subsidiaries will have been set target timescales to turn these companies around, if they fail to do so, will they try and sell or close them down?
Hereford is so small I wonder why they don't just pull out?
I am guessing the Stagecoach and Go-Aheads may have looked at FSE and not liked what they saw.
There is a huge political price to pay in closing or shrinking a loss making (or at least a marginal profit making) Bus company, particularly when you wish to bid for Rail franchises as another poster has mentioned.

Interesting that someone called Surreyman has such an aversion to First In all seriousness, I know why people don't like First but Moir has gone and the changes are coming thick and fast. Certainly more evident in some areas than others but I don't think anyone can argue that things are changing

And yes, you're guessing when linking FSE with anyone. Heard so many rumours (all without a scintilla of evidence) that I'm even more cynical than usual

 

[winston270twm]

Don't know if I agree with you on that Winston. The problem was that anyone who was looking at Wyvern as a whole would be inheriting a bus war in Redditch and a loss maker in Kiddie.

Also, not certain who would be buying. Stagecoach might have a problem given their ownership of C&G and MRS. Arriva haven't shown any appetite, and neither have NXWM (and they've had their own issues to sort in terms of fleet replacement). That then brings the usual old suggestions of newcomers like RATP but they are even less likely to get involved in a firm with a bus war on the go. So in a way, they could actually received LESS by trying to offload KR and RH by lumping in WR and HD to sweeten the pill.

Instead, they probably only had Rotala to sell to and Rotala perhaps only wanted the northern bit/limited access to funds. Now Wyvern doesn't have the worst fleet in First in terms of age (mostly DDA but getting middle aged). What they need to do is improve the ridership in Worcester and develop that city network. In Hereford, it's trickier but they need more vehicles to absorb the fixed overhead of the depot, and with some modest school workings, they've made a start on that.

TheGrandWazoo,

In my opinion, other larger operators would have be keener to take on a bus war in Redditch & a loss making Kiddi operation with competition from Whittle's on some routes if the tastier / profitable operations were also included as part of the package and the entire operation much larger. A larger group could have pushed Diamond out of Redditch if they really wanted to, as Rotala don't have the funds / resources to put up a fight for any length of time. Pete's Travel / Diamond have left & returned to Redditch on previous occasions over the years.

That's not strictly true with NXWM not being interested, there were very strong rumours prior to the loss of the WCML franchise that NXWM were close to signing on the dotted line & agreeing a sale to buy RH & KR and were intending to run them as a separate operation to NXWM and it appeared we were all but waiting an official announcement. Then all went quiet and talks broke down as supposedly one party walked away from the table, which was thought to have been First. There were also suggestions after the above event that NXWM had also expressed interest in buying WR (& I assume HD) and were turned down with a point blank no by First.

 

[overthewater]

you're guessing when linking FSE with anyone. Heard so many rumours (all without a scintilla of evidence) that I'm even more cynical than usual

The Latest accounts might explain in part to where most the rumors may have come from.

 

[winston270twm]

The Latest accounts might explain in part to where most the rumors may have come from.

But what makes people think that another company would want to buy FSE that is/was making an operating loss of nearly 26%?

I could understand rumours of closure.....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Latest accounts might explain in part to where most the rumors may have come from.

Give over, man. There's been tosh written for the last 18 months about FSE going to Lothian/Stagecoach/Go Ahead (delete as applicable) - ever since Dalkeith's closure was announced.

Most rumours are just recycled and baseless and have been around for more than a week!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But what makes people think that another company would want to buy FSE that is/was making an operating loss of nearly 26%?

I could understand rumours of closure.....

Exactly!

As regards Wyvern, you're one of the saner posters so might give some credence but it is still rumour? Also, WR has great potential and First need some strong provincial ops. I'd also say that Rotala have proven to be stronger than PE - they stayed and won!

 

[winston270twm]

Exactly!

As regards Wyvern, you're one of the saner posters so might give some credence but it is still rumour? Also, WR has great potential and First need some strong provincial ops. I'd also say that Rotala have proven to be stronger than PE - they stayed and won!

Regarding NXWM interests in RH & KR it was only strong rumour, however, we did have the ability to ask NXWM's Op's director via another forum questions directly. I asked him if NXWM were close to buying RH & KR as per the rumours suggested and duly received a 'no comment' to that particular question. So take that as you will..... All his other answers were pretty open & honest, so if he'd have simply responded by saying there was no truth in that rumour, it wouldn't have hurt any party.

 

[Blindtraveler]

But what makes people think that another company would want to buy FSE that is/was making an operating loss of nearly 26%?

I could understand rumours of closure.....

As a regular user of bits of this network, I see no reason why it couldnt, given better management and a good kick in the rite areas by First or anyone else↲ be proffitable, reliable, well used and popular. At the moment its none of these and yet the punters of East Lothian will gladly get onboard any other opperaters buses large or small without complaint and often with compliments, you only have to look at the numbers Periman carries to and From Dunbar to prove his.


There are lots of other opperaters who have made what is a network stripped back to a few commuter runs, some local service routes and a few schools like the services opperated from Firsts Musselburgh Depot pay whilst being reliable and making the punters happy and Im sure it could be done again. If we ignore the issues with vehicles and other technical and opperational facters and look purely at the customer service end, First have been peeing off the customers of East Lothian for years, the fact many would use sometimes a 2 hourly train, and a voyager at that speeks volumes. For those without a choice the service offered is at best poor and opperaters such as stagecoach or more locally the likes of Eaves, Prentice, Perrymans, Edinburgh Coachlines and Lothian have shown what a good service in challenging conditions both geographically and economically is. If First were to pull there socks up and make an effort here then this could be a great little network but is the will, or even the way, there?↲

 

[tbtc]

As a regular user of bits of this network, I see no reason why it couldnt, given better management and a good kick in the rite areas by First or anyone else↲ be proffitable, reliable, well used and popular

That's what I think about the West Lothian operation.

Whilst I appreciate that the railway has impacted upon the "fast commuter market to Edinburgh" compared to the deregulation days (no Bathgate branch, only one train an hour on the Shotts line), there's surely profit to be made in West Lothian (esp since the train doesn't physically serve Livingston very well).

In fact, you could argue that, since a decent part of Edinburgh's job market is on the western fringes nowadays (RBS HQ, Gyle, Airport, Herriot Watt) there's more attraction for good quality public transport from West Lothian. But things have gone backwards and backwards.

I know I've said it before, but compare Stagecoach's treatment of Fife Scottish with First's treatment of Eastern Scottish. Eastern/ SMT used to be one of the best fleets in the SBG, it used to see relatively good investment.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Agreed. scope from many west Lothian destinations for services which do last stop Livingston and run via M8 to RBS, Gyle, Edinburgh Park, airport etc.

 

[tbtc]

Agreed. scope from many west Lothian destinations for services which do last stop Livingston and run via M8 to RBS, Gyle, Edinburgh Park, airport etc.

This is how things should be done.

Look at Fife Scottish pre-Stagecoach. If you wanted to travel from Leven/ Kirkcaldy to Edinburgh you sat on a bus that stopped basically everywhere en route. Nowadays, there's a regular coach, and few stops south of Dalgetty Bay. Plus good connections (at Ferrytoll) to the Airport/ RBS etc.

Whereas (in the former Eastern Scottish operation that First run) the slow service from Whitburn/ Fauldhouse/ Deans (etc) in to Livingston becomes an equally slow service from Livingston to Edinburgh (and doesn't deviate to serve the Airport/ RBS etc).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

TheGrandWazoo,

In my opinion, other larger operators would have be keener to take on a bus war in Redditch & a loss making Kiddi operation with competition from Whittle's on some routes if the tastier / profitable operations were also included as part of the package and the entire operation much larger. A larger group could have pushed Diamond out of Redditch if they really wanted to, as Rotala don't have the funds / resources to put up a fight for any length of time. Pete's Travel / Diamond have left & returned to Redditch on previous occasions over the years.

That's not strictly true with NXWM not being interested, there were very strong rumours prior to the loss of the WCML franchise that NXWM were close to signing on the dotted line & agreeing a sale to buy RH & KR and were intending to run them as a separate operation to NXWM and it appeared we were all but waiting an official announcement. Then all went quiet and talks broke down as supposedly one party walked away from the table, which was thought to have been First. There were also suggestions after the above event that NXWM had also expressed interest in buying WR (& I assume HD) and were turned down with a point blank no by First.

Appreciate where you're coming from Winston. It might be a case that perhaps First approached NXWM about KR/RH rather than sell to Rotala but then we're speculating. As I say, Worcester SHOULD be a good provincial moneyspinner and with the threat of QCs, they need some of those as well. Without looking at the detailed accounts, I wouldn't be surprised that after selling to Rotala, First still had to have a write down on the vehicle assets that passed to Diamond (mainly RH's Enviro 300s) and that is in addition to the property write down.

 

[Robertj21a]

Regarding NXWM interests in RH & KR it was only strong rumour, however, we did have the ability to ask NXWM's Op's director via another forum questions directly. I asked him if NXWM were close to buying RH & KR as per the rumours suggested and duly received a 'no comment' to that particular question. So take that as you will..... All his other answers were pretty open & honest, so if he'd have simply responded by saying there was no truth in that rumour, it wouldn't have hurt any party.

NXWM got very close to buying RH & KR but it fell through when it became clear that they intended to operate it on different terms, effectively as a low cost operation.

Robert

 

[overthewater]

Give over, man. There's been tosh written for the last 18 months about FSE going to Lothian/Stagecoach/Go Ahead (delete as applicable) - ever since Dalkeith's closure was announced.
Most rumours are just recycled and baseless and have been around for more than a week!

But the two sets of accounts have been around for the past 18 months, just not in the public domain. Its possible someone in the know told someone and it rolled on.

I just can't believe First are keeping the depots in question only to keep in the good books of Transport Scotland to get hold of Scotrail.

Whereas (in the former Eastern Scottish operation that First run) the slow service from Whitburn/ Fauldhouse/ Deans (etc) in to Livingston becomes an equally slow service from Livingston to Edinburgh (and doesn't deviate to serve the Airport/ RBS etc).

First did try fast buses to Edinburgh city centre, around 12 years ago but failed, (you know six months worth) and before that, The old X23,X24? but no one remembers either of those routes from 14 years ago.

And of course E&M 555/777 with council funding but both were poorly designed etc.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But the two sets of accounts have been around for the past 18 months, just not in the public domain. Its possible someone in the know told someone and it rolled on.

Possibly??? That sounds like a guess

The facts are that FSE has performed poorly and in some former strongholds is now very weak. That is beyond question.

However, there's been a lot of baseless speculation with FSE having 3 different purchasers? Does that point to inside knowledge or idle speculation? The most amusing thing is that whilst UNO was supposed to buy part of Northampton, or 3 firms were buying Wyvern, no-one predicted London getting sold until a few days beforehand and NOT to the firms concerned.

 

[mbonwick]

I just can't believe First are keeping the depots in question only to keep in the good books of Transport Scotland to get hold of Scotrail.

They aren't, FSE is a totally separate company to the one bidding for Scotrail. Therefore Transport Scotland cannot take into account Firsts bus activities when considering their rail bid.

 

[DunsBus]

That's what I think about the West Lothian operation.

Whilst I appreciate that the railway has impacted upon the "fast commuter market to Edinburgh" compared to the deregulation days (no Bathgate branch, only one train an hour on the Shotts line), there's surely profit to be made in West Lothian (esp since the train doesn't physically serve Livingston very well).

In fact, you could argue that, since a decent part of Edinburgh's job market is on the western fringes nowadays (RBS HQ, Gyle, Airport, Herriot Watt) there's more attraction for good quality public transport from West Lothian. But things have gone backwards and backwards.

I know I've said it before, but compare Stagecoach's treatment of Fife Scottish with First's treatment of Eastern Scottish. Eastern/ SMT used to be one of the best fleets in the SBG, it used to see relatively good investment.

Not always. In the mid-70s Eastern received little in the way of new vehicles, those delivered at the time were from delayed orders placed some years previously. In 1977 it came to a head when the only new vehicles scheduled for delivery to Eastern that year were ten Seddon/Alexander Y-types for coach work. This was coupled with a chronic vehicle shortage, which saw Eastern hiring in and later buying a dozen Titans from Lothian. A change at the top at SBG and the appointment of a new Group engineering director saw an influx of new vehicles into the Eastern fleet over the next few years, including the SBG's first Nationals (for Eastern's services in the Monklands) and a batch of 40 long-windowed bus seated Y-type Seddons intended for Western. After that Eastern never had to fight over the dregs again when it came to new vehicle orders.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the two sets of accounts have been around for the past 18 months, just not in the public domain. Its possible someone in the know told someone and it rolled on.

I just can't believe First are keeping the depots in question only to keep in the good books of Transport Scotland to get hold of Scotrail.



First did try fast buses to Edinburgh city centre, around 12 years ago but failed, (you know six months worth) and before that, The old X23,X24? but no one remembers either of those routes from 14 years ago.

And of course E&M 555/777 with council funding but both were poorly designed etc.

The 555/777 circulars were actually funded by the Scottish Government using BRDG money, but failed to 'take off' (no pun intended) as hoped. They were revamped towards the end in a last-ditch attempt to encourage custom but this also failed. When the BRDG money stopped, so too did the services.

 

[oldman]

There are lots of other opperaters who have made what is a network stripped back to a few commuter runs, some local service routes and a few schools like the services opperated from Firsts Musselburgh Depot pay whilst being reliable and making the punters happy and Im sure it could be done again. If we ignore the issues with vehicles and other technical and opperational facters and look purely at the customer service end, First have been peeing off the customers of East Lothian for years, the fact many would use sometimes a 2 hourly train, and a voyager at that speeks volumes. For those without a choice the service offered is at best poor and opperaters such as stagecoach or more locally the likes of Eaves, Prentice, Perrymans, Edinburgh Coachlines and Lothian have shown what a good in challenging conditions both geographically and economically is. If First were to pull there socks up and make an effort here then this could be a great little network but is the will, or even the way, there?

I think the problem with a route like North Berwick is that on the busiest bit out as far as Prestonpans FSE have to match Lothian's flat fare £1.50. They can only set the fares for the rural section which is pretty affluent. I believe Lothian's fares policy has been an important contribution to their 'victory' in Musselburgh and Dalkeith.

Mind you, running lumbering ex-LT buses on a route with lengthy non-stop stretches probably doesn't help.