HS2 Relaunch

[NotATrainspott]

Arup say that their 'double deck down' Euston would take 19 years to complete at a cost of £3.5bn.

It seems that it would be extremely difficult to build, especially when it would be by far the most challenging and complicated feature of the entire HS2 scheme. I imagine that it might just be possible to decrease construction time by increasing expenditure, but even then I imagine that HS2 would have to terminate at Old Oak Common for some years before it were complete. The plans actually include a big crossover box to the north-west of the station, so that might actually be somewhat feasible if there were sufficient transport links then provided to get people from there (e.g. a proper Willesden/OOC - Euston shuttle or realignments of the various LUL lines that pass nearby).

 

[WatcherZero]

Presumably Chancellor is backing increased land take and commercial redevelopment rather than the double deck no local demolition option.

 

[HSTEd]

The double deck proposal also prevents provision of covered access to Euston Square station.

That will likely play havoc with dispersal of passengers.
(Unless an aboveground walkway is provided which would be a real mess to arrange).

 

[po8crg]

If there's money to throw around, I'd be sorely tempted by a Somerstown option, ie the whole area between Eversholt Street and Ossulston Street. Expensive in land-take, but it would vastly improve connections to KGX/STP - it would be very easy to put an elevated covered walkway / travelator threading between the British Library and the Francis Crick Institute to connect to STP and another across Eversholt Street to connect to EUS. You'd also want one between STP and KGX over Pancras Road, and travelators running through the stations so passengers can pass from any station to any other through an easy path.

If the Crossrail 2 station is built along Euston Road, you could have three entrances - Euston at one end, KGX/STP at the other and Somerstown (HS2) in the middle of the platforms. Run underground pedestrian tunnels from there to all three (KGX/STP, EUS and Euston Square) LU stations. Passenger dispersal with five options (two walkways to mainline stations, two tunnels to LU and an access to Crossrail) breaking out from the main station concourse should be vastly easier from Somerstown than any Euston option.

The land-take will be huge - you'll certainly have to go all the way from Euston Road to Polygon Road, and there would be more for the throat. Camden would go ballistic, of course.

 

[HowardGWR]

Are all HS2 trains due to stop at OOC anyway? I still don't see why a dual 'terminus' solution, the other at Stratford with a straight tunnel between, is not the simplest and just leave Camden alone. West End / Heathrow pax get out at OOC and Wharf Enders get out at Stratford. International pax just stay on board those trains going that way.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Are all HS2 trains due to stop at OOC anyway? I still don't see why a dual 'terminus' solution, the other at Stratford with a straight tunnel between, is not the simplest and just leave Camden alone. West End / Heathrow pax get out at OOC and Wharf Enders get out at Stratford. International pax just stay on board those trains going that way.

All trains will stop at Old Oak Common, where 1/3rds of all HS2 passengers are predicted to switch onto Crossrail and other metro services. Stratford Box is smaller than Old Oak and only has two 400m platform faces compared to six for OOC. As with many of these wonderful, wonderful ideas which get bandied about there is little, if any, regard given to the reality of the situation. Unless much of the Stratford redevelopment was torn down again, there is no space for a decent sized terminus even if it were a good idea. Terminating at either Old Oak or Stratford would force a large majority of passengers to crowd onto the public transport networks for long distances until their final destination in the centre of London. Euston is a far better place for transport interchange for the vast majority of passengers as it is not far to travel to connect into any of the tube lines through London.

There seems to be a perpetual misconception in much of the public's mind that the HS2 route design process consisted of nothing more than a mandarin in Whitehall attacking an OS map of the Chilterns with crayons. HS2 Ltd have put almost, if not every, analysis of the route and plans for the public to see freely on the internet. The overall route and station locations as currently planned are the least bad option: moving them would obviously help the people who live nearby but it would simply move the disruption and anguish to somewhere else, most likely causing more people to be affected than there are currently.

 

[po8crg]

Are all HS2 trains due to stop at OOC anyway? I still don't see why a dual 'terminus' solution, the other at Stratford with a straight tunnel between, is not the simplest and just leave Camden alone.

While it would be awfully tempting to knock down Westfield Shopping Centre to make enough room for all the platforms, I suspect that it might prove a touch expensive.

 

[HowardGWR]

While it would be awfully tempting to knock down Westfield Shopping Centre to make enough room for all the platforms, I suspect that it might prove a touch expensive.

Joke aside, Westfield is not producing a through station. A strategist attitude looks at what is strategically needed. Do we need banking business on the present scale in future and should it be at the City and Wharf? Do we need an extra one at OOC? Do we want a convenient destination for the West End or does Cross Rail 1 do what we need? Where do London area pax really want to go?

Instead, someone looked around the down market nether region north of Euston Road and decided that Camden had a lot of aging property that could be easier to serve CPOs on.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Joke aside, Westfield is not producing a through station. A strategist attitude looks at what is strategically needed. Do we need banking business on the present scale in future and should it be at the City and Wharf? Do we need an extra one at OOC? Do we want a convenient destination for the West End or does Cross Rail 1 do what we need? Where do London area pax really want to go?

Instead, someone looked around the down market nether region north of Euston Road and decided that Camden had a lot of aging property that could be easier to serve CPOs on.

No, that is not what happened.

High Speed Rail London to the West Midlands and Beyond - Chapter 3.1 to 3.2 [Document Page 53, PDF Page 7]

There's some really interesting stuff here, like the fact that a cavern Kings' Cross railway lands station would effectively be ten Crossrail stations on one site, over 500m wide and 400m long as each platform would have to be in its own bored tunnel.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

An interesting article in todays Guardian/Observer. Looks like David Higgins will recommend what we have previously thought building phase 1 and 2 simultaneously.

Bring forward high-speed rail link or face spiralling costs, says HS2 boss
Report from new chief executive David Higgins will call for work to start simultaneously on southern and northern sections

Construction of the HS2 high-speed rail line should be speeded up in order to bring benefits sooner to the north of England, the new chairman of the project will say next week.

Sir David Higgins, the Australian infrastructure expert who delivered the London 2012 Olympics on time and budget, will issue a report making clear that one way to control costs and lock in cross-party backing is to press ahead more quickly with the entire project.

One idea – increasingly pushed by MPs, peers and civic leaders in the north – is to begin work on the southern and northern sections at the same time, so as not to the leave the north behind, and as a way of controlling costs.
Government sources accept that the project may stall unless it has stronger national and cross-party backing, with northern cities and regions benefiting in the foreseeable future. Under current plans, phase one between London and Birmingham will not open for passengers until 2026. Phase two, from Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds, would follow in 2033. The total cost is estimated at £42bn. Labour has already qualified its support, insisting there can be no "blank cheque". It has, in effect, put a £50bn maximum price cap on phases one and two.

The current HS2 bill, passing through parliament, covers only the London to Birmingham stretch, so another bill would have to be put forward soon if the northern lines are to start at the same time. Andrew Adonis, the former transport secretary who is now conducting a review on economic growth for Labour, said: "If we can start at both ends, that would be a big step forward. If it is possible to do that, it would be a good thing. The faster we do it the better."

It is understood that Higgins will not cite new target dates for completion but will emphasise the need for urgency.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/08/bring-forward-hs2-high-speed-rail-david-higgins

 

[liverpolitan]

I've been told the report will be released on the 17th of March. I expect that he will recommend getting on with some of the physical infrastructure that the HS2 line will plug into for Phase 2 e.g Manchester Pic HS2 station expansion. The main reasoning being, it makes it increasingly difficult for phase 2 to be scrapped.

 

[WatcherZero]

Few more details in tommorows FT.
£1.5bn costs will be trimmed from London alone.
Acceleration of timetable for phase 2 without a fixed date, will appeal for cross party consensus as well.
U-Turn back to the expansive Euston proposals instead of the downgraded version, the extra real estate profits of a larger development will actually give a better return than the cheaper Euston option.
£300-£500m HS1 link will be cancelled.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Realistically, how disruptive would the HS1-2 link be in comparison to the kind of bridge replacement work which takes places all over the country without any controversy whatsoever? Although there is a requirement for some demolition along the line, particularly around the bridge abutments, it really doesn't seem as bad as the Camden anti-HS2 lot have been screaming about. Since the link only needs to be built for 2026, the 2 or so kilometres needing changed could either be done all at once to minimise blockading the NLL or it could be done piecemeal at only less than a few hundred metres worth a year.

I hope the report will explain what provision there could be for a link if it were ever required. Unless a construction shaft were left accessible and the tunnel into Old Oak completed as part of the scheme, it would be extremely difficult to retrofit any link no matter what business case it might have. Once the scheme is being constructed and the HS1-HS2 link can be looked at again it would be a terrible, terrible shame if plans were too far ahead to allow it to be added even before Phase 1 is complete. This farce also makes me wonder whose idea it to allow Arup to design a high-speed line with no possible connection to a future network other than the North London Line!

 

[pablo]

Another John Prescott-esque fudge?

 

[YorkshireBear]

HS1 - HS2 connection to me seemed a flawed plan from the beginning. (ie the chosen option)

I am not sure how you could get around it but if for now we do not use it then i suppose we have to deal with that.

 

[MarkyT]

One complication. Without the link there will not be a continental loading gauge route from the continent to the new line. Off the shelf new euro-trains will not be able to be delivered directly from European factories. That might encourage new captive stock to have bodyshells manufactured and fitted out in UK. Further into the future perhaps a general purpose multi-track euro gauge route could be arranged between Kensal Green and Camden, connecting to both HS2 and Willesden for euro-sized freight.

 

[NotATrainspott]

One complication. Without the link there will not be a continental loading gauge route from the continent to the new line. Off the shelf new euro-trains will not be able to be delivered directly from European factories. That might encourage new captive stock to have bodyshells manufactured and fitted out in UK. Further into the future perhaps a general purpose multi-track euro gauge route could be arranged between Kensal Green and Camden, connecting to both HS2 and Willesden for euro-sized freight.

On the other hand, without the link there isn't much possibility of a UK factory producing trains for Europe. British factories can't easily produce trains for the EU but factories on the continent can build anything for Britain due to the restricted loading gauge. UIC GC is larger than any of the loading gauges used by trains in Europe so with HS2 and some kind of gauge-cleared link there is then no reason why Britain can't build trains for Europe as well. I'm sure a manufacturer could easily pay for a single low speed GC-gauge line to connect a factory to one of the maintenance loops, infrastructure depots or rolling stock depots along the route. At most they would be producing a couple of trains a week, so I'm sure that they could come to some agreement with the HS2 operator to allow one slow path during maintenance hours a week.

 

[Loki]

One complication. Without the link there will not be a continental loading gauge route from the continent to the new line. Off the shelf new euro-trains will not be able to be delivered directly from European factories. That might encourage new captive stock to have bodyshells manufactured and fitted out in UK. Further into the future perhaps a general purpose multi-track euro gauge route could be arranged between Kensal Green and Camden, connecting to both HS2 and Willesden for euro-sized freight.

Class 374 is stuck to HS1 as well. And so are the rescue shunters or any possible stock coming from the continent. There needs to be some UIC GC line to connect HS1-HS2 even if it's just a slow one. Why not regauge the Overground line? It's mostly rising the catenary height.

 

[MarkyT]

On the other hand, without the link there isn't much possibility of a UK factory producing trains for Europe. British factories can't easily produce trains for the EU but factories on the continent can build anything for Britain due to the restricted loading gauge. UIC GC is larger than any of the loading gauges used by trains in Europe so with HS2 and some kind of gauge-cleared link there is then no reason why Britain can't build trains for Europe as well. I'm sure a manufacturer could easily pay for a single low speed GC-gauge line to connect a factory to one of the maintenance loops, infrastructure depots or rolling stock depots along the route. At most they would be producing a couple of trains a week, so I'm sure that they could come to some agreement with the HS2 operator to allow one slow path during maintenance hours a week.

So for a European manufacturer to deliver ready built (slightly smaller than absolute maximum) captive trains to HS2 the link will have to be in place before phase 1 start of operations. For UK manufactured trains the link need not be built until later for when phase 2 fleet production is winding down and new Continental orders will be being sought.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hitachi can build em, sorted.

 

[joeykins82]

Presumably axing the HS1-2 link also saves money on the stations other than Euston as there won't be any direct continental services.

I wonder whether instead we'll see 4 tracks between Highbury & Islington and Camden Road West junction so that the Watford DC services could be connected to the LO ELL:
West Croydon-Dalston Junction
Clapham Junction-Dalston Junction
Crystal Palace-Willesden Junction low level bay platform via Highbury & Islington
New Cross-Watford Junction

This would free up platform space at Euston prior to the rebuild. The obstructions though I guess are the following:
If the southern pair of tracks were DC only it'd block any electric freight traffic unless there was a dual voltage section or some other solution were put in place
It'd require pathing 8 LO services amongst the Bakerloo line services between Queen's Park and Willesden Junction
I know the Euston-WatfordJcn service is only 3tph because of signalling constraints north of Harrow & Wealdstone, so presumably something would need to be done there
Watford DC line platforms would need to take 5-car 378s
No doubt the loss of services in to Euston would cause objections; perhaps reopening Primrose Hill station for connection to the Northern Line at Chalk Farm would help sweeten the pill

 

[WatcherZero]

Little noticed element in the smallprint of the public sector pay settlement announced today was that the Chancellor was putting aside just under £1bn for infrastructure projects in next weeks budget to rebalance HS2, i.e. for parts of the country and in tory seats where there is strong anti-hs2 sentiment in order to attempt to see off potential ministerial resignations due to HS2 vote next month.

£200m has been cut this year and £400m next year by not giving the 1% pay rise to 600,000 public sector workers (mostly NHS) which already have annual pay increases of around 3% as they work through their traning levels (i.e. they automatically get a rise each time they qualify for the next grade). It is in effect a pay freeze for them. Also several hundred million will be saved from those on pensions income support as it will fall as the basic state pension rises as the qualifiying income levels arent recieving a matching increase.

Among a plethora of road schemes I expect to see little used for rail other than a commitment to fund a new Dawlish avoiding line subject to suitable business case.

 

[Manchester77]

According to posters on SCC it could be announced tommorrow that HS2 phase one will be extended to either Crewe or Manchester!

 

[WatcherZero]

If its built to Crewe in phase 1, can we scrap the Lichfield turnout for the western leg leaving the one at Crewe for Manchester/Liverpool? That would save a few bob though I suppose it would still be useful.

I guess we are talking route sections HSM03, HSM06, HSM08 and HSM09 being moved to phase 1.

Will probably really please all the people in Liverpool complaining that it was faster to Manchester than Liverpool as it would only be 2 minutes faster until phase 2 opened.

 

[Chris125]

If its built to Crewe in phase 1, can we scrap the Lichfield turnout for the western leg leaving the one at Crewe for Manchester/Liverpool? That would save a few bob though I suppose it would still be useful.

Not without scrapping the service via Stafford.

Chris

 

[po8crg]

Might want to move the Lichfield junction to somewhere nearer Stafford, though. It's only where it is because that's the end of the line.

 

[joeykins82]

If the revised plans have an HS2 to WCML connection at Crewe then the most recent service pattern would see only 1tph join the WCML at Lichfield. The money would be better spent enhancing the connectivity between Stafford and Crewe/Birmingham for connecting services rather than direct ones. Liverpool's 2tph would be faster running on HS2 as far as Crewe. Canning the Lichfield connection feels like a no-brainer.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Not without scrapping the service via Stafford.

Chris

And where is this magic capacity to run 3tph expresses from Crewe to Manchester during phase 1...?

 

[DaveHarries]

IMO the whole HS2 idea is a load of c..p: I think there are better ways of spending £50bn than shaving a mere 10 minutes off a train journey and I think the entire scheme should be scrapped.

Dave

 

[transmanche]

IMO the whole HS2 idea is a load of c..p: I think there are better ways of spending £50bn than shaving a mere 10 minutes off a train journey and I think the entire scheme should be scrapped.

Well it seems that you know nothing about HS2 and why it's being built. (Clue: it's nothing to do with shaving a mere 10 minutes off a train journey.)