Doors opened with carriages off the platform

[Helvellyn]

It's not about getting people in trouble, it's not about saving someone's skin, it's about safety.

Exactly. It amazes me how many of my colleagues still have the attitude of, "no harm done."

 

[FlashingYellows]

Wow, what a world we live in. I'd like to know the professions of those so keen to go running to teacher so as to stand over their shoulder at their place of work eagerly awaiting an inevitable mistake so I can report them to their employer...

The railways must be unique in the amount of platform experts itching to get involved.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Personally as a passenger I wouldn't be reporting it. We all make mistakes but most of us dont have hundreds of people to report them!

 

[Pumbaa]

As I said previously, the chap in question will have been suitably clenched for the rest of his shift if indeed he did make a faux pas.

You are making an assumption there that the Driver realised. Assumptions are dangerous.

I'll echo the select few others who have said it is best to report it. I'd hope that the information is not new to them, and that the Driver had reported it themselves. But, as above, assumptions are dangerous. It is not about getting someone in trouble, it is about safety and preventing incidents in the future.

 

[RJ]

What would they get out of going out of their way to report it? Other than a warm glow inside from the idea that they might have screwed someone over?

Personally I'm indifferent as to what the OP does, the driver may have opened themselves up to being reported by making a mistake, but I can't see why you'd be so keen to strongly encourage the OP to potentially drop a (fellow?) railwaymen in the crap...

It's not about dropping someone in the crap, it's about safety. As someone who knew nothing about why that happened, but knowing it shouldn't have, I would have reported it in the hope that an investigation would take place and the cause of it being addressed, whether it be down to driver error or equipment failure.

It certainly would be worthwhile if it did turn out to be a SDO failure.

 

[transmanche]

I'd like to know the professions of those so keen to go running to teacher so as to stand over their shoulder at their place of work eagerly awaiting an inevitable mistake so I can report them to their employer...

Not all mistakes have safety implications. This mistake does.

Ideally there should be a 'no-blame culture' within the industry for dealing with incidents like this that have safety implications (i.e. education rather than retribution). But it's not the fault of the person reporting an incident that such a culture doesn't exist.

 

[RJ]

Wow, what a world we live in. I'd like to know the professions of those so keen to go running to teacher so as to stand over their shoulder at their place of work eagerly awaiting an inevitable mistake so I can report them to their employer...

The railways must be unique in the amount of platform experts itching to get involved.

In this specific situation, it is not known to the passenger why the incident happened. The perjoative 'platform expert' could be applied to someone who assume they knew why it happened and based their decision on that assumption.

I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who has no idea why it happened but know it shouldn't have, hence the urge to report it.

 

[TOCDriver]

I think a quiet word to the driver would be in order - something along the lines of 'Excuse me mate but you do realise ....etc' That's all it needs. Grassing and getting somebody in potential trouble for a genuine mistake is, well, quite low. The driver would be quite grateful and would be professional enough to take any action that he/she sees fit.

 

[BestWestern]

As I said previously, the chap in question will have been suitably clenched for the rest of his shift if indeed he did make a faux pas.

You are making an assumption there that the Driver realised. Assumptions are dangerous.

I'll echo the select few others who have said it is best to report it. I'd hope that the information is not new to them, and that the Driver had reported it themselves. But, as above, assumptions are dangerous. It is not about getting someone in trouble, it is about safety and preventing incidents in the future.

The reason for that assumption is simply that this was a DOO service, the dispatch of which would require the Driver to be provided with a view of the length of his train. I have already mentioned earlier the possibility that, if just internal cameras were used, it may be possible - albeit unlikely - that the Driver didn't notice the lack of platform outside the train, but I would maintain it is far more likely that he would have noticed his error at some stage.

If the Driver had self reported the train would almost certainly have been cancelled I would imagine; was it?

 

[bb21]

HST's that stop at Market Harborough definitely unlock and you can open them off platform so its not unusual in itself. My original question was primarily whether the driver would definitely have been aware of this, and it looks like he will have.

EMT HSTs don't have SDO. The doors on these trains are permitted to be released at places with short platforms through grandfather rights.

Staff are required to make passengers aware of the situation and where to alight, but they can't stop people from opening the doors, falling and breaking their legs.

This is quite different to the situation being described in this thread.

 

[Carlisle]

The reason for that assumption is simply that this was a DOO service, the dispatch of which would require the Driver to be provided with a view of the length of his train. I have already mentioned earlier the possibility that, if just internal cameras were used, it may be possible - albeit unlikely - that the Driver didn't notice the lack of platform outside the train, but I would maintain it is far more likely that he would have noticed his error at some stage.

If the Driver had self reported the train would almost certainly have been cancelled I would imagine; was it?

I always thought that other than the Javelins , South Eastern do not have any stock fitted with those new style outside DOO cameras and internal monitors

 

[ModernRailways]

I always thought that other than the Javelins , South Eastern do not have any stock fitted with those new style outside DOO cameras and internal monitors

Most (all?) electrostars have them, it's only the 465/466s that don't on SouthEastern I presume. Someone else will probably be along to tell you which specific classes though.

 

[TEW]

I'm pretty sure 375s don't have them. It's one of the few differences between 375s and 377s. Not sure whether 376s do.

 

[Yew]

Wow, what a world we live in. I'd like to know the professions of those so keen to go running to teacher so as to stand over their shoulder at their place of work eagerly awaiting an inevitable mistake so I can report them to their employer...

I never understand the reasoning behind this sort of thinking.. If you dont want the public in your work place, find another work place.


You may think that it may be none of the OP's business, but It put his safety at risk. And in my books, if that happens, then it is definitely the OP's business.

 

[Clip]

What would they get out of going out of their way to report it? Other than a warm glow inside from the idea that they might have screwed someone over?

Personally I'm indifferent as to what the OP does, the driver may have opened themselves up to being reported by making a mistake, but I can't see why you'd be so keen to strongly encourage the OP to potentially drop a (fellow?) railwaymen in the crap...

It would be helpful to actually know what station it was really because I have noticed that at a lot of SET stations the 8 stop board is only marginally in front of the 4/6 stop board so he may have got mixed up with what was behind him - the distance sounds about right.

But,to me, this is a very serious incident which does need to be reported because if the two boards asa mentioned above are the cause of this problem as well as the driver forgetting what he is pulling then that also needs to be addressed as well as the driver.

 

[user15681]

Of the SE fleet... 376s and 375s do not have external DOO cameras on the body of the unit, unlike the 377s. The 465/466s do not have them either. The 395s do have the external DOO cameras and interior monitors.

 

[BestWestern]

Of the SE fleet... 376s and 375s do not have external DOO cameras on the body of the unit, unlike the 377s. The 465/466s do not have them either. The 395s do have the external DOO cameras and interior monitors.

Which sort of platform equipment is common across SE's network; monitors and platform cameras or just mirrors? If we're talking about a location with just a mirror planted on the platform end then it is parhaps more likely that a Driver who isn't concentrating fully might fail to notice his back end is off, as the viewing perspective is rather poor over a long distance. If we're talking about a bank of monitors with cameras down the platform on the other hand, it would be pretty much impossible to miss.

The thing to bear in mind here, from the mouths of former DOO men, is that a DOO Driver will pull up in what he believes to be the right place and pop the doors straight away. This is a habitual thing (one Driver told me once that it was commonplace to have the odd wobbly every now and then and release the doors at a red signal, just the habit of stopping and hitting the buttons) which sets you right up for a mistake . So even if you do notice that you've stopped short, there's a good chance the doors will already be open.

 

[user15681]

Which sort of platform equipment is common across SE's network; monitors and platform cameras or just mirrors? If we're talking about a location with just a mirror planted on the platform end then it is parhaps more likely that a Driver who isn't concentrating fully might fail to notice his back end is off, as the viewing perspective is rather poor over a long distance. If we're talking about a bank of monitors with cameras down the platform on the other hand, it would be pretty much impossible to miss.

The thing to bear in mind here, from the mouths of former DOO men, is that a DOO Driver will pull up in what he believes to be the right place and pop the doors straight away. This is a habitual thing (one Driver told me once that it was commonplace to have the odd wobbly every now and then and release the doors at a red signal, just the habit of stopping and hitting the buttons) which sets you right up for a mistake . So even if you do notice that you've stopped short, there's a good chance the doors will already be open.

The SE DOO network is predominantly (I think entirely) platform cameras and banks of monitors. I'm not aware of anywhere that has mirrors, although there could be a few locations.

 

[BestWestern]

Very, very unlikely that the Driver wouldn't notice any such error then, though still perfrctly possible to have already released doors by that point.

 

[FlashingYellows]

I never understand the reasoning behind this sort of thinking.. If you dont want the public in your work place, find another work place.





You may think that it may be none of the OP's business, but It put his safety at risk. And in my books, if that happens, then it is definitely the OP's business.

To clarify my earlier comments, obviously safety is paramount and nobody wants these incidents to occur. It was the gathering pack baying for blood which I was commenting on, however I can fully understand this where safety is concerned.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Very, very unlikely that the Driver wouldn't notice any such error then, though still perfrctly possible to have already released doors by that point.

That depends on the set up. When I worked for Thameslink, the 4 car monitors were set up to display four coaches, it was only the 8 car monitors that were set up to show eight coaches. You could quite easily pull up at a 4 car stop with an 8 car train and not notice, hence them giving out the cards I mentioned earlier.

 

[ECML180]

To clarify my earlier comments, obviously safety is paramount and nobody wants these incidents to occur. It was the gathering pack baying for blood which I was commenting on, however I can fully understand this where safety is concerned.

No-one is baying for blood. Some people would wish for the driver to be immediatley fired for this simple mistake and then would seek compensation-such is the world we live in! Thankfully no-one here seems to be that way inclined.

This matter is not about the driver, but about safety and so reporting it is the right this to do. The driver won't be 'dropped in it' unless he's made a mistake, hopefully if it's an isolated occurrence he'll learn his lesson and continue, if it's a regular issue then I suspect other actions may be more appropriate. The reality is, other factors could be to blame(e.g. drivers swapped shortly before and the train was longer than expected) and the driver has little or no blame to accept, in which case you've helped stop this happen to other drivers in the future by letting the TOC look at the system that's allowed it to happen.

 

[Taunton]

Right up until the end of traditional slam-door trains a few years ago, there were so many locations where the rear (and occasionally front) of a train were off the platform, especially on the Southern lines. The Arun Valley local stations were a particular case. Never really perceived as an issue then, why is it such a panic point now? And until a few years earlier, some of the trains were compartment stock, so you couldn't even walk through.

 

[ModernRailways]

Either way, we really need to stop speculating about something that may have happened and wait for the OP to come back. We have no idea where it was, if the train was different to the usual be it in length or actual stock used.

If the train is normally a 465/466 combo but today was a 465/465 combo meaning instead of 6 cars it was 8 cars then that may have caused it. Either way we need to find these things out.

 

[TDK]

Before reporting anything you need to ask yourself a question. Here is a scenario, you are driving down the motorway and someone overtakes you doing lets say about 100mph. DO YOU REPORT THIS TO THE POLICE with registration number, time, location etc? I wouldn't but hey that driver may kill your child one day? You need to put these sort of incidents into perspective. You may say there are hundreds of drivers everywhere every day speeding at 100mph thank God these so called stop short incidents are very rare.

 

[NSEFAN]

Right up until the end of traditional slam-door trains a few years ago, there were so many locations where the rear (and occasionally front) of a train were off the platform, especially on the Southern lines. The Arun Valley local stations were a particular case. Never really perceived as an issue then, why is it such a panic point now? And until a few years earlier, some of the trains were compartment stock, so you couldn't even walk through.

The danger is in the lack of familiarity. When all trains were slam door, everyone knew how to use them and to check to see if the door is at the platform. Now all trains are sliding door, people don't stop to think about whether or not the train is at the platform, making it more likely for someone to injure themselves when the train isn't lined up properly.

I've seen plenty of people struggling with the doors on the Chiltern bubble cars (including a group of teenagers who pulled the emergency cord thinking it'd open the door!). People expect things to be automatic and don't stop to think about the dangers once they are isolated from them.

 

[LBSCR Times]

This matter is not about the driver, but about safety and so reporting it is the right this to do. The driver won't be 'dropped in it' unless he's made a mistake, hopefully if it's an isolated occurrence he'll learn his lesson and continue, if it's a regular issue then I suspect other actions may be more appropriate. The reality is, other factors could be to blame(e.g. drivers swapped shortly before and the train was longer than expected) and the driver has little or no blame to accept, in which case you've helped stop this happen to other drivers in the future by letting the TOC look at the system that's allowed it to happen.

If it is reported, then it will be followed up.
Drivers do have a 'rating' system, so the more incidents they have, the more likely they will be removed from driving for a short period of time.
No company will want this, so the cause will be looked in to.
For example, a recent stop short at one Southern station, with the rear set of doors off the platform, showed that if the driver didn't stop exactly in line with the 8 car stop board, but a foot or so back, then this was the result.
It was also incidents like this that showed it wasn't possible to run 4 x 2.456 units on services out of London Victoria.

 

[Tibbs]

Before reporting anything you need to ask yourself a question. Here is a scenario, you are driving down the motorway and someone overtakes you doing lets say about 100mph. DO YOU REPORT THIS TO THE POLICE with registration number, time, location etc? I wouldn't but hey that driver may kill your child one day? You need to put these sort of incidents into perspective. You may say there are hundreds of drivers everywhere every day speeding at 100mph thank God these so called stop short incidents are very rare.

I'm going to use this meme more often:

And as for the 100mph argument - I don't think that driving at that speed on a straight motorway in good weather in a well maintained car is dangerous in the least. Our 70mph speed limit was put in place in the 60s and is an anachronism, kpet in place through inertia and environmental concerns.

If someone was driving like that on the M25 on a foggy day in rush hour, weaving through the traffic, you'd better believe I'd ring the Police. If I could do it safely without breaking the law, that is.

 

[PG]

If it is reported, then it will be followed up.
Drivers do have a 'rating' system, so the more incidents they have, the more likely they will be removed from driving for a short period of time.
No company will want this, so the cause will be looked in to.
For example, a recent stop short at one Southern station, with the rear set of doors off the platform, showed that if the driver didn't stop exactly in line with the 8 car stop board, but a foot or so back, then this was the result.
It was also incidents like this that showed it wasn't possible to run 4 x 2.456 units on services out of London Victoria.

This set my mind wandering and after trailing back through RAIB reports this paragraph is in the report into a passenger fall at Brentwood in 2011:

94 The stopping practice of NXEA drivers indicates that most recognised that the eight-car monitor was not fully visible from the eight-car stop board. NXEA’s management arrangements did not identify this problem. This was an underlying factor.

While this is NOT related to the incident the OP describes it does demonstrate that management may well not be aware of deficiencies on-the-ground unless incidents are reported which then cause them to investigate.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Never really perceived as an issue then, why is it such a panic point now?

Because people will sue you as soon as look at you these days. That never used to be the case.