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Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

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WatcherZero

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Mention of the Liverpool-Wigan electrification in latest Modern Rail, they found some uncharted cables and found some unmapped shallow pit workings while drilling for masts so they have had to be filled in, they are bringing in a wiring train make up the lost time and to keep the original deadline.
 
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DJH1971

DJH1971

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WatcherZero said:
Mention of the Liverpool-Wigan electrification in latest Modern Rail, they found some uncharted cables and found some unmapped shallow pit workings while drilling for masts so they have had to be filled in, they are bringing in a wiring train make up the lost time and to keep the original deadline.
Click to expand...

They need to now.

Less that 9 months and ticking....
 
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BantamMenace

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Bit of a novice post here but is slab track just rail mounted on a concrete bed as appose to laid on ballast?

And if so why are they putting it in the tunnels ahead of electrification (what are the benefits)?
 
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WatcherZero

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Yeah.

Advantages are its shallower than ballast and its fixed, and it removes the need for tamping in the tunnel.
 
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snowball

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To make enough space for the overhead wires. Cheaper than enlarging the tunnel by digging.
 
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northwichcat

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PhilipW said:
..... and what for St Helens/Wigan services ...... ??
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They'll be quite a lot of diesel services still on Chat Moss in December 1/3 of Airport-Liverpool services will still be DMUs and all stopping services out of Lime Street on Chat Moss will be.

It'll take until the December 2015 for all Chat Moss services to switch to EMUs and the 319s won't be refurbished before entering service in the North West. I did say a couple of years ago that DfT should have just ordered some new EMUs for the North West and leave the 319s for later wiring schemes like Thames Valley, Valley Lines and local services in Yorkshire covered by North TPE which would then allow enough EMUs and cascaded EMUs to be fully refurbished before being transferred.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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PhilipW said:
..... and what for St Helens/Wigan services ...... ??
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The Wigan/Warrington/Manchester Vic local services interwork at the moment.
It you wait long enough the same unit will turn up on each service progressively during the day.
I suspect it will be like that with the EMUs initially.
The Airport/Blackpool services are pretty much self-contained to 3 156 units each.
The Blackpools won't change but it will be interesting if they rotate the EMU routes or keep them on one service.
For sure, there will be a lot of hanging around with the EMUs waiting for the DMU timetable to catch up.
 
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northwichcat

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LNW-GW Joint said:
The Wigan/Warrington/Manchester Vic local services interwork at the moment.
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The Liverpool to Warrington/Manchester service is supposed to become a 1/2 hourly Liverpool-Manchester stopper all day (opposed to just at peak times) which would mean EMUs wouldn't need to sit around for as long. With Liverpool-Manchester stoppers taking 63 minutes (plus recovery time) it wouldn't work well as a self-contained diagram with an hourly frequency.
 
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Wavertreelad

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Interesting discrepancy in the press release between the Dft website and Northern website (apart from the picture) .

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-trains-to-boost-rail-services-in-the-north-west

which just states TWO units will start in December 2014

whilst

https://www.northernrail.org/news/7449

mentions no train numbers just the extra number of seats.

Two is disappointing but at least an improvement, refurbished or not, provided somebody else doesn't nick the 156's and 150's in the process.
 
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deltic08

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transmanche said:
Just two of them... :(
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Not the brightest move by the DafT making the effort to issue a press release for only TWO cascaded units when normally they wouldn't for this number. This is piling insult upon insult by drawing attention to it. I hope someone asks why only two and why not refurbed as promised. As usual the North is a home for cast-off crappy trains. FCC have even taken the off-lease 317/7s to deal with shortages in London.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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It's three units in December (two in service) rising to 12/14 in December 2015. The two units initially released are apparently going to increase seat numbers on the Bolton line (one unit) and for running the new Todmorden Curve service (one unit). Other unit displacements over the next year have not yet been finalised.

Bear in mind that the Liverpool-Stalybridge timetable changes in May (this year), and is cut back to Liverpool-Manchester Victoria, to accommodate the Liverpool-Newcastle TPE service.
 
DJH1971

DJH1971

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hairyhandedfool said:
It's three units in December (two in service) rising to 12/14 in December 2015. The two units initially released are apparently going to increase seat numbers on the Bolton line (one unit) and for running the new Todmorden Curve service (one unit). Other unit displacements over the next year have not yet been finalised.

Bear in mind that the Liverpool-Stalybridge timetable changes in May (this year), and is cut back to Liverpool-Manchester Victoria, to accommodate the Liverpool-Newcastle TPE service.
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Wonder if we were to get other EMU's apart from 319's?

Heard that 317's or even 321's were considered at some point.
 
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thealexweb

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DJH1971 said:
Wonder if we were to get other EMU's apart from 319's?

Heard that 317's or even 321's were considered at some point.
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The DfT has made it clear it would prefer the ten four-car Class 317s rot in storage rather than have them in service.
 
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thealexweb

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DJH1971 said:
I though there was a trial fairly recently with a refurbished set, which also had the thyristor removed.

Makes no sense at all. :|
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Having them play around with one set does not forgive them for having the 10 units out of action for so long.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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thealexweb said:
The DfT has made it clear it would prefer the ten four-car Class 317s rot in storage rather than have them in service.
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Northern don't want (need) a handful of oddball 317s to add to its menagerie of trains.
The cost to Northern of training and maintenance would be very high.
The price was allegedly too high (Rosco trying it on).
DfT were probably "sending a message" to Angel Trains.
Some of them are going back to GA or being used to test new traction packages.

This from the Porterbrook web site: http://www.porterbrook.com/pages/corp2014.html#march2014
Lease Extensions for the North
Porterbrook has signed an agreement to extend the leases for their rolling stock with train operator Northern Rail in line with the recent announcement by the Department for Transport to run a new short term franchise until February 2016.
As part of this, Porterbrook's fleet with Northern Rail will also move to a soggy lease arrangement, whereby Porterbrook will take responsibility for all heavy maintenance on the vehicles throughout the franchise term.

In addition, to satisfy the Department for Transport's challenge for the introduction of electric units for the North West Electrification project, Porterbrook has signed an agreement to introduce Class 319 Electric Multiple Units which will be cascaded from the current First Capital Connect franchise. These units will operate between Liverpool and Manchester via Newton le Willows on the newly electrified route
Click to expand...
 
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Wavertreelad

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The strange part is the quote in the press release

"Malcolm Brown, CEO, Angel Trains, commented, “...... These units will provide a complementary option to the building of brand new trains.“It’s also worth highlighting the importance of having high quality, lower cost options such as the re-engineered Class 317 for use on sections of the national rail network which are due to be newly electrified. The modernisation work which has taken place on these trains makes commercial sense but it also supports jobs and skills in the UK rail supply chain,” continued Brown."

"Rail Minister, Stephen Hammond said: "We are currently embarked on one of the biggest programmes of rail modernisation ever, with more than £38billion being invested to electrify hundreds of miles of track, open new stations and improve the connectivity of hundreds of towns and cities across the network."

So I can understand testing them on an existing network, but if they are surplus why not move them North to the area that clearly both these quotations refer too?

Full press release below.

http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Portals/0/News_Downloads/Class 317 launch press release 28_11_2013.pdf
 
Manchester77

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Could be a GW Thames Valley branch? 387s on the main services with a small fleet modernised EMUs for the branches as said in rail magazine (or did they mention the 319s?)
 
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edwin_m

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It's all commercial posturing. No doubt Angel wants to have someone lease their trains and decided this is more likely if they are refurbished. The Minister can hardly not welcome the refurbishment, but no deal will be done unless the price is right. That isn't just the lease costs but also associated costs such as staff training, spares and depot facilities, which will be higher if the fleet includes two types of unit.

"Soggy Lease" sounds somehow appropriate for the "soggy mess" this seems to be turning into.
 
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