Disabled man 'humiliated' after refused train access, he claims

[CyrusWuff]

The Passenger Focus report makes damning reading. Passengers who had used Passenger Assist only received the help they had booked in 66% of cases. Passengers who had reserved a wheelchair space were only able to get into it in 68% of cases. Only 45% of passengers received the service they had been promised by Passenger Assist.

One of the big issues with Passenger Assist, in my opinion, is that few (if any) frontline staff have access to it to make bookings. Instead, it's dealt with by third parties with no local knowledge who routinely book jobs to unstaffed stations, stations with no wheelchair access, etc.

 

[Greenback]

One of the big issues with Passenger Assist, in my opinion, is that few (if any) frontline staff have access to it to make bookings. Instead, it's dealt with by third parties with no local knowledge who routinely book jobs to unstaffed stations, stations with no wheelchair access, etc.

Yes, that is probably a major contributory factor in the systemic problem that beset the assistance facility. As I have said before in another thread, it's the system that doesn't work, rather than a lack of willingness to help people from rail staff.

 

[colchesterken]

In "the good old days" the guard would have taken the weelchair user and helper into the brake compartment .

 

[infobleep]

I think there are two different issues coming out on this thread.

The first one is the bloke at Welshpool. Unfortunately the train was full, and if it is full it is full. That's just one of those things, and a significant reason why most disabled people avoid using public transport wherever possible. It doesn't sound like there were inconsiderate people on board, it was simply that the train was packed.

The second one is the storage of bags in the wheelchair bay. My view on this one is clear: any bags left in the wheelchair area should be removed from the train. The signs should state this is what would happen, and that the TOC is not responsible for loss or damage, just like unattended bags on railway stations "may be removed and destroyed by the security services".

I've seen it too many times when people travelling with suitcases larger than my car dump them everywhere, and actually this needs to be resolved. "Anyone who doesn't move the bags from the wheelchair bay can collect them later, at their own cost, from the station office at Reading" will focus a few minds. It's amazing how people manage to move their bags when they're told the alternative is travelling without them.

That said, if the standard class bay was full of bags, I find it disgraceful that they didn't check the first class bay.

As for the TM not being able to deal with baggage, the TMs on East Coast tend to manage reasonably well, and their office is further from the wheelchair bay. It isn't a case of "standing sentry", but (given that there was assistance at Reading) you'd expect a TM to check the bay if a wheelchair user is booked. Not that wheelchair users are obliged to book in advance, of course.

The other week I was travelling on a Virgin Pendine and all the luggage spaces were full. My suitcase was heavy and to big for the overhead racks anyway. So I had no choice but to put it in the wheelchair space. Needless to say I was using advanced purchase tickets.

The problem seems to be a lack of luggage space which on a long distance service if not good enough.

As it was when the train manager came to check my ticket I pointed out the problem. He said as the train wasn't so busy it would be OK to leave the suitcase where it was.

Just imagine if the train had been full though. Where do people put their luggage. They can't leave it behind and their advanced purchase ticket means they must board that particular train.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[infobleep]

The fact is that in the "real world" the industry is not doing its best. Being charitable it could be called mediocre, but that really is being charitable.

But we are the highest out of the 7 largest railway network in Europe so the industry must be doing something right.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Tetchytyke]

But we are the highest out of the 7 largest railway network in Europe

...according to ATOC.

They also think that being "most improved railway" is something to brag about, and that the current rail industry provides "unrivalled value for money".

 

[PHILIPE]

It's company policy at my TOC and part of their job role for the train guard to keep wheelchair areas accessible.

It would appear we're not alone as to quote XC's policy on the same here - http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk...ssistance/disabled-people's-protection-policy - "We will ensure that any spaces dedicated for wheelchairs are not used for any other purpose and the need to keep these spaces clear is a specific part of our luggage policy."

It may be bloody difficult or nigh on impossible at times, but that's the situation as it is. Having slung 8 or 9 items of luggage around a peak Friday holidaymakers train myself (and put the delay into it in the mean time) I know where you're coming from but you have to deal with it, even if you end up delaying the train - especially if they're all like it. It was definitely the case that when the space was displayed as reserved and it occurred the delay was allocated to the train manager. I will ask briefly for the owners of the luggage to come and help move it, but if they don't appear I've got no hesitation in chucking it about myself - that said I'm a big lad and aware I won't be backed up if I manage to injure myself in the process.

As I said before - it's obviously not a gaping lack of thought or anything else - I've been a train dispatcher and I am a guard - including on trains that carry a lot of luggage and have next to nowhere to put it - but I do realise it is a damn near impossible job to please everyone as we are expected to do.

I should of course make clear that I'm referring to the wheelchair space being full of suitcases, catering supplies, pushchairs etc - if it's full of warm and irritated human bodies with nowhere else to stand it does make it rather difficult. Even then though, particularly if the passenger has reserved and depending on the location, I'd probably hang around long enough to get control to book them a taxi and confirm it has been done for them.

Very often passengers feel compelled to place luggage wherever they see a place due to insufficient designated luggage areas (especially on XC Voyagers)

 

[TUC]

If the passenger had booked assistance in advance then presumably you would expect the guard to lower the ramp before other passengers started boarding.

 

[Chapeltom]

Yeah, some people think it's appropriate to stick suitcases in front of doors then a station comes up where the doors open on the side the luggage is on. I have gone to get on a train once or twice and thought twice at the thought of the wall collapsing.

 

[TUC]

Very often passengers feel compelled to place luggage wherever they see a place due to insufficient designated luggage areas (especially on XC Voyagers)

You might expect a guard though who knew that there was a wheelchair bound passenger booked for later in the journey to ask passengers to move the luggage earlier on, to give him an easier job when he got to the station in question as much as anything else.

 

[Bevan Price]

1. The main blame lies with those holding the purse strings - the DfT and treasury, etc., for not allowing the operators to have trains that are "fit for purpose" - in that there are too few trains, too few seats and insufficient luggage space to meet the normal everyday requirement on many routes.

2. Some minority lobby groups claim they want "equality" when want they really want is "preferential treatment". As others have written - if a train (or bus) is full, then it is full.

 

[TUC]

2. Some minority lobby groups claim they want "equality" when want they really want is "preferential treatment". As others have written - if a train (or bus) is full, then it is full.

But the problem is that, if a passenger has booked assistance, including indicating the need for a wheelchair space, and then the staff only come to help them board after all the other passengers have boarded, how is it the passenger's fault that the train is full? Common sense says that in that situation there is a need to make sure that the passenger is able to board and that the space is available. That's not preferential treatment. That's just making sure that what was booked in advance is made available in practice.

 

[BestWestern]

The second one is the storage of bags in the wheelchair bay. My view on this one is clear: any bags left in the wheelchair area should be removed from the train. The signs should state this is what would happen, and that the TOC is not responsible for loss or damage, just like unattended bags on railway stations "may be removed and destroyed by the security services".

As for the TM not being able to deal with baggage, the TMs on East Coast tend to manage reasonably well, and their office is further from the wheelchair bay. It isn't a case of "standing sentry", but (given that there was assistance at Reading) you'd expect a TM to check the bay if a wheelchair user is booked. Not that wheelchair users are obliged to book in advance, of course.

The realities of a train which is packed solid sadly make these things considerably more difficult than they may sound.

Train leaves London, TM has to dispatch from the rear, mandatory. Wheelchair bay is six coach lengths away, with pax crammed down the aisles and into the vestibules at both ends of at least three of them, possibly four and that's assuming First is clear. There is no policing for the 10/15/20 minutes that the train has been advertised and people are boarding, filling the luggage racks beyond capacity. If there is a big empty space in Coach C, they will fill it up very quickly indeed. The TM has no idea at all that a wheelchair is booked until he views his reservation list if it's available, after preparing the train which is diagrammed to take 10 mins and is booked to happen immediately prior to departure.

Quite simply, if you are unfortunate enough to have a train which is utterly rammed and you require the wheelchair bay to be empty later in the journey there is little that you can do about it until you arrive at the boarding station of the passenger in question, and you do your best to deal with it there. The idea that you can somehow maintain a great bit empty space on a train which is jammed solid is laughable I'm afraid, it just won't happen.

As for slinging off people's luggage, the usual policy is for railway staff to employ 'conflict avoidance' wherever possible; not to enter into heated confrontations with already exasperated passengers while wrestling with them over their suitcases....Just no!

 

[Delta558]

As a guard on a rural line, I'd like to point out that we don't actually get a 'heads up' for passenger assistance - generally, the first we know about it is when a companion comes up to us and says 'the gent / lady over there has assistance booked'. Usually, by that point, nearly everyone else has got on the train and the person talking to us has approached us because they don't understand why help hasn't arrived immediately.

Clearly, that leaves the passenger frustrated, but it also leaves us scratching our heads a bit! The last time I saw a 'passenger assistance' printout, it was a completely random jumble of letters and numbers except for the heading. I knew what I was throwing in the bin and that I was likely to be giving assistance at some point on the return journey, nothing more unfortunately.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes, for some reason they like using a load of abbreviations and acronyms that bear no relevance to anyone who actually uses the information sheets they produce - presumably to save time. In a previous job I used to do we did the same - the only difference was it was only our team that had to read the notes so it didn't matter - obviously this causes a bit more of a problem.

 

[Greenback]

But the problem is that, if a passenger has booked assistance, including indicating the need for a wheelchair space, and then the staff only come to help them board after all the other passengers have boarded, how is it the passenger's fault that the train is full? Common sense says that in that situation there is a need to make sure that the passenger is able to board and that the space is available. That's not preferential treatment. That's just making sure that what was booked in advance is made available in practice.

As we've seen from recent posts, there are a lot of 'if's' involved here. If the passenger has booked assistance, if the guard has been given the information, if the information they have been provided with is legible, and if the guard is able to get down the train to the wheechair space.

If any of those didn't or couldn't happen, the system will not work.

I suspect, given the lack of any mention of it, that this passenger had not booked their journey, or assistance, in advance. But I stand to be corrected if I have missed it.

 

[TUC]

The Passenger Focus report makes damning reading. Passengers who had used Passenger Assist only received the help they had booked in 66% of cases. Passengers who had reserved a wheelchair space were only able to get into it in 68% of cases. Only 45% of passengers received the service they had been promised by Passenger Assist.

One of the big issues with Passenger Assist, in my opinion, is that few (if any) frontline staff have access to it to make bookings. Instead, it's dealt with by third parties with no local knowledge who routinely book jobs to unstaffed stations, stations with no wheelchair access, etc.

But those staff booking assistance have access to the information. Several times when my wife had booked assistance with TPE the person doing the booking has referred to checking on the relevant system what hours the relevant station is staffed etc.

 

[Tetchytyke]

2. Some minority lobby groups claim they want "equality" when want they really want is "preferential treatment". As others have written - if a train (or bus) is full, then it is full.

What most disabled people want is to be able to get on the trains they have booked on to. If a TOC had a 32% failure rate on reservations for able-bodied people then the Government would be asking serious questions. But because it's disabled people having to deal with the lottery it is "minority lobby groups" having a whinge.

Go and read the Passenger Focus report and then tell me disabled groups are being unreasonable.

In an ideal world they would want equality- the ability to rock up at a station and get on the first train that turns up- but they are pragmatic. But it should be noted that able-bodied people were able to get on the train at Welshpool, the train wasn't full for them.

 

[ExRes]

Just as a wider thought, how many wheelchair spaces are there on a St Pancras to Nottingham HST for example, would any wheelchair user be required to book in advance and would EMT be guilty of thoughtlessly humiliating a group of, let's say, 15 wheelchair users who all wanted to travel together ?

 

[CyrusWuff]

But those staff booking assistance have access to the information. Several times when my wife had booked assistance with TPE the person doing the booking has referred to checking on the relevant system what hours the relevant station is staffed etc.

That may well be the theory, but the number of times I've seen assists booked in the scenarios I mentioned suggests they ignore it...at least for my TOC.

Examples include: Booking wheelchair assistance on an 11pm train when the destination station is unstaffed after 8pm; booking assistance to a station where the lifts are locked out once the booking office closes; booking assistance to totally unstaffed stations; and my personal favourite, booking assistance to stations where the only way off the platform is via a footbridge, with no lift or barrow crossing...

 

[Tetchytyke]

The realities of a train which is packed solid sadly make these things considerably more difficult than they may sound.

It's certainly not an easy job for guards to deal with the needs of disabled passengers- many of whom have made reservations- and the needs of long-distance travellers taking their kitchen sink with them.

At terminal stations I'd like to see more use of the parcels space, where available. EastCoast do this when the Edinburgh Festival is on, and also at Christmas, where passengers have to check their baggage into the DVT. I know this won't work on XC or Virgin, but it could work on First Great Western (I assume the parcels space on the power cars is still available for use, please correct me if I'm wrong).

In the longer term, I can only really suggest that the wheelchair bay automatically have something to block it off when it is not in use. But then that has it's own problems on the very busiest trains, where every square inch of floor space is needed.

I guess I just get very frustrated with people travelling with their huge suitcases, far in excess of the maximum dimensions in the NRCoC, and nothing is done about it at management level because of the fear of a PR backlash.

It's something the industry need to sort out. The Government have changed the rules on disability benefits, meaning they will assess you based on any mobility aids (e.g. wheelchair, walking stick) that you use. This means people will be taking public transport far more in future, because the Government will be taking all other options (like Motability cars) away from disabled people.

 

[w0033944]

It's something the industry need to sort out. The Government have changed the rules on disability benefits, meaning they will assess you based on any mobility aids (e.g. wheelchair, walking stick) that you use. This means people will be taking public transport far more in future, because the Government will be taking all other options (like Motability cars) away from disabled people.

If only it was the Government doing the assessment! Until recently it's been the French firm ATOS, and, if you want to know how popular they've been, a quick bit of web browsing will give you all the information you need to know. To give you an indication of how useless they are, the address for their assessment centre for those claiming things like Employment and Support Allowance (covering the disabled and long-term injured etc.) in Norwich is:

2nd Floor, St Marys House, Duke Street (emphasis mine)

Now bear in mind that, in such buildings, the lifts are not suitable for use in an emergency, and that H&S legislation doesn't allow those who need to use a lift due to disability to be upstairs in a public building with no means of emergency escape other than the stairs. I think you can see the problem here. ATOS's solution is to send the doctors they employ to the homes of disabled people to perform assessments instead.:roll:

Back on-topic - it seems to me that the more modern rolling stock simply doesn't have enough luggage space, thereby forgetting the fact that, in the old days, there was a decently-sized guards' compartment and many trains had a full-brake on the end. This then means that, as I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, the wheelchair priority space is unenforceable and exists in name only on busy trains.

 

[infobleep]

They simply need to reintroduce the luggage van. Many of my old guide books and the few railway appendixes or staff hand books refer to them. They would even collect the luggage from your home once upon a time. Clearly I'm not suggesting that but luggage van would take heavy suitcases away.

It was even once possible to do your house removals by train.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[jon0844]

If you look at the suitcases at King's Cross and the like, people are still doing their house removals by train!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Sounds like the 1101 departure from Welshpool 4 cars on Saturday but 6 in the week! The basic problem effecting both the disabled user and the hundreds of able bodied people also using the train is a lack of capacity. Now as the disabled lobby seems to get it's way on most things perhaps we have the answer to a lack of rolling stock across the UK - trains will have to have sufficient capacity to accommodate any conceivable load of passengers in case a disabled person needs space to get on.

 

[HSTEd]

The problem with a luggage van is that that is 20-23-25m of train length (and thus platform length) that can't have passengers in it.

A luggage vehicle in the end of high speed units might be plausible but that causes all sorts of issues.

 

[TUC]

To give you an indication of how useless they are, the address for their assessment centre for those claiming things like Employment and Support Allowance (covering the disabled and long-term injured etc.) in Norwich is:

2nd Floor, St Marys House, Duke Street (emphasis mine)

Now bear in mind that, in such buildings, the lifts are not suitable for use in an emergency, and that H&S legislation doesn't allow those who need to use a lift due to disability to be upstairs in a public building with no means of emergency escape other than the stairs. I think you can see the problem here.

Disabled people do work in upper floor in buildings all the time though. Using your logic, people in wheelchairs would be restricted to jobs they could do on the ground floor and would never shop in upper floors of department stores!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the problem is that, if a passenger has booked assistance, including indicating the need for a wheelchair space, and then the staff only come to help them board after all the other passengers have boarded, how is it the passenger's fault that the train is full? Common sense says that in that situation there is a need to make sure that the passenger is able to board and that the space is available. That's not preferential treatment. That's just making sure that what was booked in advance is made available in practice.

As we've seen from recent posts, there are a lot of 'if's' involved here. If the passenger has booked assistance, if the guard has been given the information, if the information they have been provided with is legible, and if the guard is able to get down the train to the wheechair space.

If any of those didn't or couldn't happen, the system will not work.

But the only one of those that the passenger should be interested in is 'have I booked assistance'? I recognise that the other factors are ones that the TOC will need to address in order to delver the service but they're just part of making sure that systems are in place to offer good customer service. A passenger should not have to worry that their assistance is contingent upon whether they happen to come together on a given day.

 

[Central Trains]

I would have thought the train manager should have ensured this area was kept clear to allow wheelchair users to use it ??

It is extremely rare to see the TM towards the front of the service before Reading as it is only a 25 minute journey and they need to be at the end of the train to dispatch.

 

[w0033944]

Disabled people do work in upper floor in buildings all the time though. Using your logic, people in wheelchairs would be restricted to jobs they could do on the ground floor and would never shop in upper floors of department stores!

Please re-read what I wrote and have a rethink. Here's a clue - I'm not arguing for it or saying it's logical - it's because it's a public building as opposed to a private business (department store or place of work).

If you think I'm making this up, see the following link:

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/two_years_on_and_norwich_s_disability_assessment_centre_still_does_not_have_wheelchair_access_1_3341999

 

[Yew]

The problem seems to be a lack of luggage space which on a long distance service if not good enough.

Thats the problem. Back in the day they would have a van for luggage, however in the increasing passanger levels of today, a DVT is seen as 'wasted space'.

Imagine if everyone on a train had the maximum amount of luggage allowed by the NRCoC? it would be chaos! Even on east coast with their DVT's