Disabled man 'humiliated' after refused train access, he claims

[TheEdge]

It'll have been a 158

 

[cjmillsnun]

If only it was the Government doing the assessment! Until recently it's been the French firm ATOS, and, if you want to know how popular they've been, a quick bit of web browsing will give you all the information you need to know. To give you an indication of how useless they are, the address for their assessment centre for those claiming things like Employment and Support Allowance (covering the disabled and long-term injured etc.) in Norwich is:

2nd Floor, St Marys House, Duke Street (emphasis mine)

Now bear in mind that, in such buildings, the lifts are not suitable for use in an emergency, and that H&S legislation doesn't allow those who need to use a lift due to disability to be upstairs in a public building with no means of emergency escape other than the stairs. I think you can see the problem here. ATOS's solution is to send the doctors they employ to the homes of disabled people to perform assessments instead.:roll:

You're wrong on that legislation. That's why Evac Chairs exist.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for the info. I have also heard that the evac chairs are distinctly uncomfortable.

They're not that bad. I'm qualified to train people to use them and as such have been pushed down the stairs in them many times.

If used correctly they do their job and aren't overly uncomfortable.

The actual answer is, as always, somewhere in between. The regulations on fire safety do not make any distinction between, to use your terms, a "public building" and a "private business"; it applies to any building to which members of the public have access as of right or by licence. It does not have to be all members of the public; a category of people would do (so office blocks, say, are captured). There needs to be a way to evacuate people who cannot use stairs when lifts are unavailable, and there are several options. The most common is to have fire-resistant refuges near the stairs complete with an "evac chair", which is a complicated contrivance that someone can be strapped into and allows another person to assist them down the stairs. (Fire doors take at least 30 minutes for a fire to burn through, which is why it's so important they be kept closed.) Another option in very high rise buildings is a special fire-rated lift.

Why exactly the building in question has not been deemed to be compliant is not clear from the available information. It may be that they have nowhere to put the evac chairs due to the configuration of the building, or that the stairs have sharp turns, or there is no fire-safe refuge. The media don't normally care about such details when there's a good story or a chance to slam "elf n safety".

I'm a former fire marshal and we got training on how to use the evac chairs. Luckily I did not get rolled down in them; reports are that it is a bumpy ride! I would qualify all the above by saying it was several years ago so I may have misremembered a few things; apologies in advance if that's the case.

Evac chairs are actually quite simple. Think of a conveyor belt and you have a pretty good idea how the skis on an evac chair work.

Evac chairs can be used on stair with sharp turns, at the end of most flights of stairs in commercial buildings there are 2 ninety degree turns to get onto the next flight. A skilled operator can negotiate those turns in about 10 seconds.

Also whoever trained you to use the chair was incompetent. As part of the training you MUST go down in the chair. Also if done correctly (plenty of downward pressure on the handle whilst going down) the bumping is almost non existant.

Any commercial building without a fire safe refuge is non compliant. A half hour fire door must be provided to any internal escape.

 

[jon0844]

Three passengers are waiting for a packed rush hour train, two able bodied and one wheelchair user, there's room for the able bodied pair to squeeze into the little space available but not enough for a bulky wheelchair, what are the staff supposed to do then ?

In an ideal world the one who got there first would be invited to board first, unlike what happens which is others rush to get in front to make sure they get on and maybe stop someone with a wheelchair, buggy or luggage boarding.

I like the 'priority by law' idea. Then mark the floor with an area and simply let people in there when it's empty on the understanding that it's a gamble. Sure you can sit or stand there, but expect to be asked to move at short notice - just like buses or parts of the tube where the floor is marked out that's impossible not to notice.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Three passengers are waiting for a packed rush hour train, two able bodied and one wheelchair user, there's room for the able bodied pair to squeeze into the little space available but not enough for a bulky wheelchair, what are the staff supposed to do then ?

Normal wheelchairs take up the space of about three people standing up, or 1-2 people sitting on tip-up seats.

Normal wheelchairs are not very big at all, they're far smaller than people seem to think.

Mobility scooters should be banned from all trains though...

 

[Flamingo]

Mobility scooters should be banned from all trains though...

Most of them are...

 

[455driver]

Most of them are...

It a pity the occupiers of the biggers scooters dont/wont realise that point!

 

[infobleep]

May be they need a poster campaign. They have posters saying when unfolded bikes can be taken on South West Trains to and from London. Saying that, the regulations are regularly ignored. There is a review going on over the regulations but no end date publicly set for this.

Back to the point, it may be that people on mobility scooters are simply unaware until it's too late.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[90019]

Following the recent court rulings, if the train was a bus then the wheelchair would have had priority, meaning anyone on board who was in the way would have been kicked off.

That isn't true.

On the buses I drive, we can only ask for the wheelchair space to be vacated. If whoever is in it refuses, we're not allowed to kick them off.
(Though if they were to get abusive and have a go at me, I could then refuse to move the bus until they're off it, even requesting the Police to attend and remove them if necessary ).

If the bus is full and there are people standing in the wheelchair space who can't move elsewhere, then the wheelchair user will have to wait for the next bus.
If there isn't space, there isn't space.

 

[455driver]

That isn't true.

On the buses I drive, we can only ask for the wheelchair space to be vacated. If whoever is in it refuses, we're not allowed to kick them off.
(Though if they were to get abusive and have a go at me, I could then refuse to move the bus until they're off it, even requesting the Police to attend and remove them if necessary ).

If the bus is full and there are people standing in the wheelchair space who can't move elsewhere, then the wheelchair user will have to wait for the next bus.
If there isn't space, there isn't space.

Plymothians post is correct, one of the bus companies was successfully taken to court for failing to pick up a wheelchair user because the area was full.

 

[jon0844]

The area for wheelchairs should be VERY clearly marked. Not just signs/stickers but on the floor too.

It should be made abundantly clear that if you choose to go into that space, you're accepting the possibility that you'll have to move somewhere else - and that could even mean getting off the bus.

I think that would be perfectly fair and not discriminatory at all. You could then class the bus as full once everything but that area was filled, but if people wanted to stretch out then so be it - at their risk.

If you don't make it perfectly clear then people are going to refuse to move, and what's more, you're going to get loads of people willingly using the area. It will mean some buses getting full sooner than they do now, but if it had to be that way then it could be resolved with more buses. That's assuming you're wanting to take accessibility seriously.

Chances are in London that you could move upstairs, but as pointed out, a lot of people don't seem to want to do so. But it does seem to depend on the route/location.

I also don't see a problem with having buses with larger spaces to accommodate two wheelchairs, or buggies. Chances are that for a lot of the day, buses will have at least one buggy user. Sure they can be folded, but they still take some room when folded, so more open space (with more things to hold on to) is probably going to be inevitable one day.

Some (non London) buses I've been on already have space on two sides for wheelchairs or buggies, with tip down seats for when neither are used.

 

[speedy_sticks]

I hear Stagecoach Scotland are going to ban standing on their buses to save weight.

 

[Deerfold]

I hear Stagecoach Scotland are going to ban standing on their buses to save weight.

Where did you hear that? It sounds most unlikely - as well as less weight they'd be taking fewer fares. It'd also be a lot of work for the driver having to know exactly how many people to let on the bus without going over the limit.

Plymothians post is correct, one of the bus companies was successfully taken to court for failing to pick up a wheelchair user because the area was full.

I don't think anyone doubts that, but as I've asked before how is that enforced? Bus drivers have no special legal powers.

The area for wheelchairs should be VERY clearly marked. Not just signs/stickers but on the floor too.

It should be made abundantly clear that if you choose to go into that space, you're accepting the possibility that you'll have to move somewhere else - and that could even mean getting off the bus.

I think that would be perfectly fair and not discriminatory at all. You could then class the bus as full once everything but that area was filled, but if people wanted to stretch out then so be it - at their risk.

If you don't make it perfectly clear then people are going to refuse to move, and what's more, you're going to get loads of people willingly using the area. It will mean some buses getting full sooner than they do now, but if it had to be that way then it could be resolved with more buses. That's assuming you're wanting to take accessibility seriously.

Chances are in London that you could move upstairs, but as pointed out, a lot of people don't seem to want to do so. But it does seem to depend on the route/location.

And again, how would this be enforced?

 

[jon0844]

Driver refuses to move until other passengers likely step in and sort things out for him/her. Another preprogrammed announcement to say the area needs to be vacated is run, repeated as necessary.

If that doesn't work, call the police.

Won't take long for the message to get through and change mindsets.

 

[speedy_sticks]

How do you stop children misbehaving on the bus?

For a good bus driver it's the same logic.

 

[Smudger105e]

Very often passengers feel compelled to place luggage wherever they see a place due to insufficient designated luggage areas (especially on XC Voyagers)

About 3 weeks ago I was on a XC Voyager from Edinburgh to Plymouth, and the guard/conductor made announcements before and after departure that the wheelchair space must be kept clear of luggage by law. He then examined the area after departure and made further announcements that the bags in the area must be moved. I think he said something about them being placed in the luggage area in coach C or something.

One small case was not removed, and the guard walked up and down the coach with it above his head announcing 'whose case is this'. Noone claimed it so he said it would be considered a suspect package and removed from the train.

I think however the case was retained on the train, but the owner alighted at Newcastle and couldn't find his bag, which I suspect was retained on the train as it progressdd towards York...

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the bus is full and there are people standing in the wheelchair space who can't move elsewhere, then the wheelchair user will have to wait for the next bus.

That is entirely reasonable. Not even disabled people would disagree with that. There are some routes in a morning in London where you simply won't get on board a bus even if you're able bodied. (e.g. Muswell Hill and Crouch End to Highgate), it's one of those things

The problem, though, is the difference between can't and won't. I've seen too many London buses where the driver claims the bus is "full" because of the people standing downstairs, when there is clearly 20 seats upstairs that people won't use. Getting rid of the bendies has made this problem worse- thanks Boris!

The good London bus drivers deal with it these issues well: engine off, paper out, and the delayed passengers will get it sorted PDQ. And to all those who say they "can't do that", that's exactly what they do when someone gets on and doesn't pay their fare, so I don't see why refusing to move down the bus should be any different.

 

[Deerfold]

The good London bus drivers deal with it these issues well: engine off, paper out, and the delayed passengers will get it sorted PDQ. And to all those who say they "can't do that", that's exactly what they do when someone gets on and doesn't pay their fare, so I don't see why refusing to move down the bus should be any different.

And then they get in trouble with their controller as payment to the companies is based on regular gaps between buses being maintained.

Driver refuses to move until other passengers likely step in and sort things out for him/her. Another preprogrammed announcement to say the area needs to be vacated is run, repeated as necessary.

If that doesn't work, call the police.

Won't take long for the message to get through and change mindsets.

How far down the police's priority list do you think that will be, given how long it takes to come out to a break-in?

 

[speedy_sticks]

I wonder what you folks would do if you weren't allowed on your bus or train more than twice in a row?

Honest answers required.

 

[infobleep]

And then they get in trouble with their controller as payment to the companies is based on regular gaps between buses being maintained.

I didn't know that. I wonder how regular the gaps have to be. I mostly find I the morning more buses heading from Kingston to Surbiton in a shorter space of time than the other way round and the reverse in the evening.

The timetable doesn't suggest this should be the case. It has to be traffic or passenger related though. Is that the companies fault?

Most bus drivers are good at telling people to move down or go upstairs, in Surbiton at least. Can't comment for else where.

XC mentioned the wheelchair space needing to be free when I travelled from Newcastle last August bank holiday weekend.

However Virgin didn't recently and allowed bags to remain. All other luggage space in carriage was full. Not sure about other carriages, I didn't check. However one is not suppose to leave their bags unattended and keep them with them at all times. Less chance of that if it's stored in another carriage not near where your sitting.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[455driver]

How do you stop children misbehaving on the bus?

For a good bus driver it's the same logic.

Stop, open the doors, turn the engine off and start reading the paper was how I used to do it!

 

[island]

I wonder what you folks would do if you weren't allowed on your bus or train more than twice in a row?

Honest answers required.

I've frequently had to wait for the third or fourth Northern line train due to overcrowding.

I waited with reducing volumes of patience.

 

[jon0844]

I realise these days the police wouldn't care, and the driver might get in a lot of trouble, but one day we might realise that the only way to deal with those who can say 'and what are you going do to stop me?' might one day get a nasty surprise. And in time, the problems will go away.

But I am not hopeful that this will ever happen.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wonder what you folks would do if you weren't allowed on your bus or train more than twice in a row?

Honest answers required.

I'm fit and healthy and can walk. I knew the buses at my nearest bus stop were always packed to the rafters, so I walked the 3/4 mile to the tube at Highgate rather than wait for one.

If I had limited mobility I'd probably still be standing there now.

 

[Smudger105e]

I remember back in my commuted days in the 1980s, travelling in the brake of a CIG with a guy in a wheelchair. He made the observation that he was 'packed in here like a suitcase' and that no heating was provided. He had a point..