IEP - Hitatchi making good out of a bad spec?

[route:oxford]

Indeed, people paying through the nose for IEP or commuter travel soon forget or never knew the higher standards of comfort in the 60s and 70s so it will become the 'norm' .

Brian

There can't be many people left who are still working who were working in the 1960s.

Hell, if you were 18 in 1970, you'd be 62 now.

At least these days we can get from Brum to Glasgow in under 4 hours, access a wide range of media on a portable device, avoid killer cigarette fumes from fellow passengers, and enjoy the comfort of a high backed seat without the stupid shoulder "wings".

 

[Minilad]

Most of my extended family find the 377s provide more comfort than the VEPs and CIGs, curiously including my grandma (rest her soul) who vividly remembered the SR and LB&SCR's carriages!

Comparing modern stock's comfort to a previous generation's expectations isn't helpful at all.

I will remember that the next time a "aren't Voyagers horrible" thread comes up

 

[Pure BR]

I have no doubt it'll be an adequate train that will plod up and down without drama. It'll be awfully boring, no buffet or fresh air, just rows and rows of seats. Rock hard ones, probably. No point getting up for a wander, nowhere to go, just a stressed trolley person hammering up and down the aisles. The generally pleasant tradition of evening commuters gathering at the bar for a few beers and some putting the world to rights will be long gone, instead they'll all be sat down and subdued into silence like the masses. The computerised voice of Big Brother will churn away, mind numbingly repeating the same message tone-for-tone before and after every stop, any shred of personality through manual announcements safely stamped out. The five car sets will end up rammed at some point, inevitably. Just another average plastic train, devoid of any trace of glamour and designed to make everybody's journey sterile and grey.

Most people are pretty indifferent to train design in my opinion. Rail travel is seen mostly as overpriced and unreliable, local services are like sitting on a bus and intercity stuff is like sitting on a budget aeroplane. The vast majority wont care in the slightest. Shame.

What an utterly brilliant statement

 

[krus_aragon]

With the power door stock, it would be stop, release doors (and local door), pax open doors, board and alight, close doors, close local doors, rightaway.

With the slammers it was stop, open doors, close doors, quick check by platform staff, and rightaway.

Wot, no alighting or boarding slammers? :P

I accept the general point, though.

 

[broadgage]

The article does say something about the ends of the coaches being tapered so the vestibule and door in seating area are quite narrow and the step due to high floor will make dwell times longer than they could be with a shorter coach and a lower floor.

And again the whole point of the bi-mode was that the large Diesel engines used to go off the wires would be removed after the wires are all up with a "donkey engine" for if a dewirement occurs. That would mean you still have the high floor and the disadvantages that brings with a big empty space underneath.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's both, step up from platform and an inclined gangway into seating area.

I do not believe that removal of the large diesel engines and replacement with smaller units is planned on electrification.
Surely the bi-mode units will have multiple relatively large engines, and the nominaly electric units will have one engine only on the short units and two on the full length trains.

 

[contrex]

There can't be many people left who are still working who were working in the 1960s.

Hell, if you were 18 in 1970, you'd be 62 now.

I was 18 in 1970, and I don't appreciate being written off like that. There are about as many people aged 60-64 in the UK population as there are 25-29 year olds. I know someone who started work in 1963 aged 15 who is still working.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I have no doubt it'll be an adequate train that will plod up and down without drama. It'll be awfully boring, no buffet or fresh air, just rows and rows of seats. Rock hard ones, probably. No point getting up for a wander, nowhere to go, just a stressed trolley person hammering up and down the aisles. The generally pleasant tradition of evening commuters gathering at the bar for a few beers and some putting the world to rights will be long gone, instead they'll all be sat down and subdued into silence like the masses. The computerised voice of Big Brother will churn away, mind numbingly repeating the same message tone-for-tone before and after every stop, any shred of personality through manual announcements safely stamped out. The five car sets will end up rammed at some point, inevitably. Just another average plastic train, devoid of any trace of glamour and designed to make everybody's journey sterile and grey.

Most people are pretty indifferent to train design in my opinion. Rail travel is seen mostly as overpriced and unreliable, local services are like sitting on a bus and intercity stuff is like sitting on a budget aeroplane. The vast majority wont care in the slightest. Shame.

What a pathetic statement, straight from the dark ages of rail transport. I'll take boring all day long if I get a seat on a safe, fast train. What's wrong with wanting that? Why is it shameful? A train is a train and nothing else. If you want to see the good old days visit a preserved railway. If you want to socialise go to the pub.

 

[Dave1987]

What a pathetic statement, straight from the dark ages of rail transport. I'll take boring all day long if I get a seat on a safe, fast train. What's wrong with wanting that? Why is it shameful? A train is a train and nothing else. If you want to see the good old days visit a preserved railway. If you want to socialise go to the pub.

I'm not bothered whether its a glamorous train or not. Hell the Germans have us well and true beaten in that department, their trains have plenty of room and don't have as many seats as possible crammed into the coach. My point is is the spec from the DFT according to the article has meant Hitatchi have had to make compromises and certainly things about it are not desirable and for such an expensive train that's not really that good.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm not bothered whether its a glamorous train or not. Hell the Germans have us well and true beaten in that department, their trains have plenty of room and don't have as many seats as possible crammed into the coach. My point is is the spec from the DFT according to the article has meant Hitatchi have had to make compromises and certainly things about it are not desirable and for such an expensive train that's not really that good.

In your eye's you might not think that it's very good but your opinion is completely irrelevant. The trains are on their way and you either use them or you don't. However, you and I know that millions will.

 

[47802]

I'm not bothered whether its a glamorous train or not. Hell the Germans have us well and true beaten in that department, their trains have plenty of room and don't have as many seats as possible crammed into the coach. My point is is the spec from the DFT according to the article has meant Hitatchi have had to make compromises and certainly things about it are not desirable and for such an expensive train that's not really that good.

And what would have been the alternative a Pendolino perhaps, I doubt the 800's will be any worse than a 390 and possibly better. Like it or not we are not in the 1960's with MK1 armchair seats, or corridor compartments.

Not been on a German Train, but have been on a Double Deck TGV which I wouldn't say they are all that great especially for headroom, and I travelled on single deck TGV from Paris the Zurich a couple of years ago and was less than amused to find my reserved seat was a 378 style sideways seat.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could an engine meeting the emissions regs be fitted into the underside of a Pendolino coach or would it be too big? If it would fit, then a few Pendolinio "DMU" coaches could be built for new build Pendolinos and as the lines get electrified the engines get removed but the coaches would (hopefully) still be usable.

 

[irish_rail]

Agreed, nothing is worse than the crampt claustrophobic layout inside a Pendolino, and I for one am glad the rest of the country isnt having them foisted on us

 

[BestWestern]

What a pathetic statement, straight from the dark ages of rail transport. I'll take boring all day long if I get a seat on a safe, fast train. What's wrong with wanting that? Why is it shameful? A train is a train and nothing else. If you want to see the good old days visit a preserved railway. If you want to socialise go to the pub.

No, it isn't 'pathetic', nor from the dark ages. By all means feel free to share your views, as we all do, but do try to be more tolerant and less inexplicably enraged; it does you no credit.

 

[route:oxford]

I was 18 in 1970, and I don't appreciate being written off like that. There are about as many people aged 60-64 in the UK population as there are 25-29 year olds. I know someone who started work in 1963 aged 15 who is still working.

It's not exactly being written off...

It's a statement of fact. People who started work in the 60s and early 70s often had fabulous company or private pension schemes.

For many from that era, working beyond the age of 60 is a lifestyle choice.

Either way, I'm pretty confident that more people in the age range 18-59 commute to work than those in the age range 60-65.

 

[Dave1987]

In your eye's you might not think that it's very good but your opinion is completely irrelevant. The trains are on their way and you either use them or you don't. However, you and I know that millions will.

Yes the trains are on the way BUT I feel that this deal should be scrutinised heavily to ensure future procurements are better value.

 

[williamn]

I've not read the Modern Railways piece. Is it a fact there's no buffet?

 

[daikilo]

I was 18 in 1970, and I don't appreciate being written off like that. There are about as many people aged 60-64 in the UK population as there are 25-29 year olds. I know someone who started work in 1963 aged 15 who is still working.

I joined BR in 1971 at the age of 17. On this subject, given Britains high platforms it is a no-brainer to have same level boarding even with powerplants underfloor. The issue is that some currently favoured simply don't fit.

 

[BestWestern]

I've not read the Modern Railways piece. Is it a fact there's no buffet?

The current understanding I believe is that there will be three trolleys on board the nine car sets, two in standard and one for first class. There will be some form of minimal 'galley' cum trolley store, but not a buffet.

That was last week though! :roll:

 

[455driver]

The current understanding I believe is that there will be three trolleys on board the nine car sets, two in standard and one for first class. There will be some form of minimal 'galley' cum trolley store, but not a buffet.

That was last week though! :roll:

That bodes well for the Pullman dining trains!

 

[ainsworth74]

That bodes well for the Pullman dining trains!

Last I heard there would be full kitchens in the driving vehicle at the first class end. Much like is provided on 390s or 222s. It's simply that there won't be a buffet or shop type affair in the middle of the train and instead a storage space for the trolley.

 

[455driver]

Thanks for the clarification Ainsworth.

 

[contrex]

Either way, I'm pretty confident that more people in the age range 18-59 commute to work than those in the age range 60-65.

There are more people aged 18 to 59 than there are aged 60-65, so this is trivially true.

 

[The Ham]

There are more people aged 18 to 59 than there are aged 60-65, so this is trivially true.

Infact there are more people in England aged 18-23 (inclusive) than there are aged 60-65 (inclusive).

 

[jimm]

Indeed, people paying through the nose for IEP or commuter travel soon forget or never knew the higher standards of comfort in the 60s and 70s so it will become the 'norm' . People like me who have rediscovered the cheapness, comfort and speed of their car since 377s etc came in will not be using them to complain either so its a win win for everybody. I gave up intercity when the Mk3 in original layout went and gave up using Slovia's withered arm to London after getting too many backaches for the extended two hour plus journeys on 377s.

Brian

Ah yes, the halcyon days of the 1960s and 70s when there were rather fewer people making journeys by rail - about half the numbers there are now, with the increase the greatest - by far - in London and the South East.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/252807/rail-trends-factsheet-2012-13.pdf

So, no, we can't all ride around in Southern Region Mk1 stock with 2+2 seats, arranged in nice face to face bays of four, any more, otherwise must of us would never be able to get on the train in the first place.

I've no idea what journey you are doing in your car, but it clearly isn't peak commuting in and out of any large town or city on a regular basis, because you certainly wouldn't be praising its speed then.

I'm not bothered whether its a glamorous train or not. Hell the Germans have us well and true beaten in that department, their trains have plenty of room and don't have as many seats as possible crammed into the coach. My point is is the spec from the DFT according to the article has meant Hitatchi have had to make compromises and certainly things about it are not desirable and for such an expensive train that's not really that good.

Which German trains would these be? The ICEs are fairly swanky, but then a nice large loading gauge allowing spacious interiors does help, but there is an awful lot of bog-standard suburban stock that is much the same as anything you would find here, or in the rest of Europe.

Hitachi have, by the sound of it, done the best they could in the light of what the DfT wanted. And if anyone thinks that a TOC would necessarily have done any better than the civil servants in specifying the IEP, I have just one word for you... Voyager.

 

[route:oxford]

Yes the trains are on the way BUT I feel that this deal should be scrutinised heavily to ensure future procurements are better value.

If there are follow-on orders they are bound to be better value.

It would be fabulous if Transport Scotland ordered some IEP dual-stock for Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness

They'd be able to operate off the knitting as far as Dunblane then switch to the generators. It would also mean that stealth electrification as and when funds were available saw immediate benefits.

 

[contrex]

As someone who used to commute to his first jobs in Bulleid designed SUBs and EPBs, and later on BR Mk 1 stock, I would much rather use modern rolling stock, if only for the sake of crashworthiness. Even a 15 mph buffer collision at Cannon Street in 1989 killed 2 and injured 524. The Bulleid design coaches telescoped badly.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If there are follow-on orders they are bound to be better value.

It would be fabulous if Transport Scotland ordered some IEP dual-stock for Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness

They'd be able to operate off the knitting as far as Dunblane then switch to the generators. It would also mean that stealth electrification as and when funds were available saw immediate benefits.

It would be the new franchisee that would order them. The winning bidder is planned to be notified in October 2014 but it isn't outwith the realms of feasibility to say that it couldn't be a different time as the winning bidder for the Sleeper was meant to be notified in August this year.

 

[Pure BR]

And what would have been the alternative a Pendolino perhaps, I doubt the 800's will be any worse than a 390 and possibly better. Like it or not we are not in the 1960's with MK1 armchair seats, or corridor compartments.

Not been on a German Train, but have been on a Double Deck TGV which I wouldn't say they are all that great especially for headroom, and I travelled on single deck TGV from Paris the Zurich a couple of years ago and was less than amused to find my reserved seat was a 378 style sideways seat.

Maybe we should of built some MK5 carriages a stick a loco on. No stupid underfloor engines. Just nice quiet, comfortable carriages. The 390 was a train that forgot about the passenger environment.

The Hitachi train is a shocking train. And bloody expensive!!!!

 

[WatcherZero]

Mmm, isnt the IEP using the profile and coach dimensions that BR developed for the Mk5's but never used.

 

[Pure BR]

Mmm, isnt the IEP using the profile and coach dimensions that BR developed for the Mk5's but never used.

Yes, Network Rail use the Mark 5 dimensions as a profile for their tracks design. Also we would have had 155 mph trains running back in 1995, using the mark 5 and class 93 loco. But as normal, the Government wouldn't stump the cash up. But loves lavishly tax payers cash on foreign train builders now?!