Ideas for South West franchise going forward

[infobleep]

There are going to be route changes happening as part of the new franchise let to Govia, covering Great Northern, Thameslink and Southern regions.

Given that is the case for that franchise, could something similar happen to the South West Trains franchise area once it's relet?

There are services from Guildford to Ascot but how about a direct Guildford to Farnham service?

A Surrey County Council consultation report mentioned the possibility of giving Camberley faster direct services to London by joining the mainline some point between Basingstoke and Brookwood. That would require additional track of course.

They currently run 3-4 trains to Bath a day. Could they increase this number further? Is their demand. What about Bristol which gets 1 a day?

Are there any lines the franchise could take over or run trains over? They use to run to Brighton. Southern run services from South Croydon to Milton Keynes. I don't suppose the South West franchise could run any cross London services? There probably isn't the space for them to do so. There use to be intercity style service from Basingstoke to Ipswich.

 

[Rapidash]

Ooh!Ooh! I know, get 'em running west of Exeter again Chuck the suitcase wielding tourists on the 159's and everyones a winner \o/

 

[Class377/5]

There are going to be route changes happening as part of the new franchise let to Govia, covering Great Northern, Thameslink and Southern regions.

What route changes are happening on GTR other then Thameslink changes?

As in reference to SWT, nothing like Thameslink is proposed until Crossrail 2, little is expected to change.

 

[Parallel]

They currently run 3-4 trains to Bath a day. Could they increase this number further? Is their demand. What about Bristol which gets 1 a day?

I believe Temple Meads gets 4 services, three from London Waterloo and one from Salisbury, with three returning to London Waterloo and the late evening one, Salisbury.

I often find most of these trains going to Bristol very light loaded, as it only runs about 10 mins behind the FGW Cardiff Central via. Bristol service which scoops up most of the passengers, and those coming from London generally use Paddington.

They do need some services though with Salisbury being their depot for the line, and most late evening FGW services terminate at Westbury, which would make it difficult for those travelling to Warminster or Salisbury. Perhaps a few limited services to Yeovil Junction, Axminster or Exeter St Davids via Salisbury from Bristol would be a good idea, and would encourage more traffic along this line.

 

[infobleep]

The Thameslink changes are rather wide ranging and seem to affect quite a few lines, some of which previously didn't have a Thameslink service.

I just wondered what could they do with the South West franchise when it's relet.

They are already introducing longer trains so they couldn't really claim that as something the next franchise will deliver, as to South West Trains credit, they are trying to deliver it now.

I assume Cross Rail 2 will be a franchise similar in type to Cross Rail.

Cross Rail 2 will free up space into Waterloo but would they simply run more of the same or would they introduce extra routes?

 

[The Ham]

There are going to be route changes happening as part of the new franchise let to Govia, covering Great Northern, Thameslink and Southern regions.

Given that is the case for that franchise, could something similar happen to the South West Trains franchise area once it's relet?

There are services from Guildford to Ascot but how about a direct Guildford to Farnham service?

A Surrey County Council consultation report mentioned the possibility of giving Camberley faster direct services to London by joining the mainline some point between Basingstoke and Brookwood. That would require additional track of course.

They currently run 3-4 trains to Bath a day. Could they increase this number further? Is their demand. What about Bristol which gets 1 a day?

Are there any lines the franchise could take over or run trains over? They use to run to Brighton. Southern run services from South Croydon to Milton Keynes. I don't suppose the South West franchise could run any cross London services? There probably isn't the space for them to do so. There use to be intercity style service from Basingstoke to Ipswich.

Although Surrey County Council would like to see better London bound trains from Camberley, it could only happen if they joined with another service as I would have thought that there would be other services which would bring in more passengers if there was a spare path into London.

Also the return journey would either require crossing the SWML on the flat (not a good idea) or building a chord. However, it would be much more difficult (read costly) to build a east facing grade separated junction at this location than a west facing junction with not much extra benefit (depending on which services it paired with or where it called at it could wipe out all the advantage of not having to change at Farnborough - see link below) in doing so for the London bound travellers.

However a west facing junction could provide addition benefits (including a diversion route for engineering works east of Farnborough) whilst still proving the demand for better Camberley to London Services.

I could see the perceived benefit of a "new" service running Ascot to Aldershot (pair up with a train from Alton) London Waterloo working, then with the existing Aldershot Guildford portion being run longer (i.e. further south or East than Guildford and/or further west than Aldershot). However running Camberley to Aldershot and then to London isn't going to save much time over going via Ascot, especially once you've added in a few minutes for joining the two services.

Also given that Borden is likely to have a service which pairs up with the Alton train it is unlikely that the two would be able to run together (maybe each being run as an hourly service so that the Alton train joining with each over the hour but never both in the same half hour).

Here are some other thoughts with regards to the west facing grade separated junction:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103237
Although the chord would be going the "wrong way" it could enable a faster journey time as going from Camberley to Farnborough and changing for the next London bound train would only need to be be faster than 25 minutes (which is likely as it takes 15 minutes to get to Aldershot and I would have though that it is more likely to be closer to 10 minutes) and it is still faster even if the slow trains are caught from Farnborough.

Make it connect with a fast train and you could be looking at (even allowing at least a 5 minute change time at Farnborough) journey times of less than an hour rather than an hour and a quarter by going via Ascot.


If electrification to Salisbury were to happen I would expect that some of the services which currently stop at Basingstoke could be extended to Salisbury. Even if these where the slower services (with most people changing at Basingstoke for a faster train) it could bring a lot of benefits to the line between Basingstoke and Salisbury.

Such a service could even reverse at Salisbury and run the Salisbury 6 service (subject to electrification) so that it could be argued that that line would have a "direct" (in that they wouldn't have to change trains) service to London.

It would also mean that, as the line was more intensively used that the cost per passenger of the line would go down a little (i.e. although some elements of the infrastructure will wear out the more trains that runs along that section other elements will not be impacted by the extra services).

 

[swt_passenger]

The Thameslink changes are rather wide ranging and seem to affect quite a few lines, some of which previously didn't have a Thameslink service.

Er... but that's always been the whole point of Thameslink, even the original version. The current improvement project's additional capacity is generated by the core area improvements, but outside of that there are fundamentally no new routes, they just connect existing separate routes together, and run some at higher frequencies.

In broad terms that is also what is happening with Crossrail, except for the new Abbey Wood branch. It is also what is probably happening with Crossrail 2 in due course.

 

[The Ham]

The Thameslink changes are rather wide ranging and seem to affect quite a few lines, some of which previously didn't have a Thameslink service.

I just wondered what could they do with the South West franchise when it's relet.

They are already introducing longer trains so they couldn't really claim that as something the next franchise will deliver, as to South West Trains credit, they are trying to deliver it now.

I assume Cross Rail 2 will be a franchise similar in type to Cross Rail.

Cross Rail 2 will free up space into Waterloo but would they simply run more of the same or would they introduce extra routes?

I would have thought that it would mostly be more of the same. By the time they've added 1tph to Weymouth (following OHLE from Southampton to Weymouth), 1tph to Salisbury (possibly including the Salisbury 6), 1tph to Portsmouth, 1tph to Reading, and one or two more services then there isn't likely to be many free paths for lots of additional routes, nor could I work out where they could likely to run to without being just extensions of existing routes anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe Temple Meads gets 4 services, three from London Waterloo and one from Salisbury, with three returning to London Waterloo and the late evening one, Salisbury.

I often find most of these trains going to Bristol very light loaded, as it only runs about 10 mins behind the FGW Cardiff Central via. Bristol service which scoops up most of the passengers, and those coming from London generally use Paddington.

They do need some services though with Salisbury being their depot for the line, and most late evening FGW services terminate at Westbury, which would make it difficult for those travelling to Warminster or Salisbury. Perhaps a few limited services to Yeovil Junction, Axminster or Exeter St Davids via Salisbury from Bristol would be a good idea, and would encourage more traffic along this line.

I could also see that a service which runs Yeovil to Salisbury via Westbury (could run further than that, but just along that route) could be useful as it would enable better connectivity between the two lines.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Once the overhead is installed from Southampton docks through Basingstoke upto the North (can't remember the route North of Basingstoke) assuming that paths are available, what possibilities would that open up (assuming 444s and 450s converted to dual voltage). If the overhead section could somewhere connect up with the WCML, could SWT eventually potentially operate as far North as Birmingham New Street (I doubt the paths would exist in the New Street area anyway)

 

[Tio Terry]

Once the overhead is installed from Southampton docks through Basingstoke upto the North (can't remember the route North of Basingstoke) assuming that paths are available, what possibilities would that open up (assuming 444s and 450s converted to dual voltage). If the overhead section could somewhere connect up with the WCML, could SWT eventually potentially operate as far North as Birmingham New Street (I doubt the paths would exist in the New Street area anyway)

There's nothing in the SW Route strategy for OHEL between Basingstoke and Southampton in the next Control Period. The freight services are planning to use Class 92's.

 

[swt_passenger]

Once the overhead is installed from Southampton docks through Basingstoke upto the North (can't remember the route North of Basingstoke) assuming that paths are available, what possibilities would that open up (assuming 444s and 450s converted to dual voltage). If the overhead section could somewhere connect up with the WCML, could SWT eventually potentially operate as far North as Birmingham New Street (I doubt the paths would exist in the New Street area anyway)

The electrification is part of something known as the 'Electric Spine', as discussed regularly. The route north of Basingstoke is to Reading > Oxford > Leamington > Coventry > Nuneaton > WCML, OR from Oxford to Bletchley > WCML, OR from there to Beford and the MML.

I'd suggest there is absolutely no intention of using it to facilitate SWT running north, either to the Birmingham area or anywhere else. OTOH there is definitely scope for additional or modified routes run by XC, and this is mentioned in NR's various route strategies.

Conversion of Desiros to dual voltage doesn't make any more magically become available, funnily enough they'll be needed for the existing timetable, where they are fully utilised...

 

[Aictos]

With Basingstoke to Reading being earmarked for OHLE works as part of the "Electric Spine", what impact would this have on the existing Reading to Basingstoke shuttle being currently run by FGW with a pair of Class 150s on a 2tph basis.

Would the powers to be still prefer to keep DMUs on this service OR would they rather use EMUs?

Why couldn't SWT run it?

 

[swt_passenger]

With Basingstoke to Reading being earmarked for OHLE works as part of the "Electric Spine", what impact would this have on the existing Reading to Basingstoke shuttle being currently run by FGW with a pair of Class 150s on a 2tph basis.

Would the powers to be still prefer to keep DMUs on this service OR would they rather use EMUs?

Why couldn't SWT run it?

It would definitely allow FGW to use EMUs, like they will be doing on most other services operated from Reading depot, so I'd say it would be almost certain to change with eventual wiring. I certainly can't see the two 150s lasting after electrification of the main routes either - they'll be off to Exeter or Bristol I'm sure, even if 165s go back on the Basingstoke route temporarily.

In which case why would SWT need to run it anyway? Their only spare stock seems to be 158s...

 

[JamesRowden]

With Basingstoke to Reading being earmarked for OHLE works as part of the "Electric Spine", what impact would this have on the existing Reading to Basingstoke shuttle being currently run by FGW with a pair of Class 150s on a 2tph basis.

Would the powers to be still prefer to keep DMUs on this service OR would they rather use EMUs?

Why couldn't SWT run it?

In the London and South East RUS, Network Rail recommended running a 2tph 12-Car EMU Basingstoke-Paddington service during the peak which would run non-stop between Reading and Paddington (, Heathrow Express would not run on the fast tracks during the peak and there would be a 20tph service between Reading and Paddington on the fast tracks). The RUS concluded that 20tph would be needed and this service is also meant to reduce overcrowding on the SWML by attracting some passengers to Paddington rather than Waterloo.

 

[455driver]

There are services from Guildford to Ascot but how about a direct Guildford to Farnham service?

The Guildford to Ascot services link in with the Waterloo to Alton services perfectly at Aldershot with a cross platform, 4 minute change.

A Surrey County Council consultation report mentioned the possibility of giving Camberley faster direct services to London by joining the mainline some point between Basingstoke and Brookwood. That would require additional track of course.

There was an election due, no realistic chance of that happening since the railway linking onto the SWML was ripped to put a dual carriageway there.

They currently run 3-4 trains to Bath a day. Could they increase this number further? Is their demand. What about Bristol which gets 1 a day?

Theses follow the FGW services so not really enough call for what is running now, never mind any more trains.

Are there any lines the franchise could take over or run trains over? They use to run to Brighton. Southern run services from South Croydon to Milton Keynes. I don't suppose the South West franchise could run any cross London services? There probably isn't the space for them to do so. There use to be intercity style service from Basingstoke to Ipswich.

No real need or desire to do so.

 

[infobleep]

Er... but that's always been the whole point of Thameslink, even the original version. The current improvement project's additional capacity is generated by the core area improvements, but outside of that there are fundamentally no new routes, they just connect existing separate routes together, and run some at higher frequencies.

In broad terms that is also what is happening with Crossrail, except for the new Abbey Wood branch. It is also what is probably happening with Crossrail 2 in due course.

My point was that they are being connected up and in my mind that creates new routes. Perhaps I should have said new direct routes.

 

[infobleep]

The Guildford to Ascot services link in with the Waterloo to Alton services perfectly at Aldershot with a cross platform, 4 minute change.


There was an election due, no realistic chance of that happening since the railway linking onto the SWML was ripped to put a dual carriageway there.


Theses follow the FGW services so not really enough call for what is running now, never mind any more trains.

No real need or desire to do so.

Unfortunately the actual connection time between the services at Aldershot is 3 minutes. So because it's 1 minute under the official connection time one is told to wait 33 minutes. It's officially quicker to go via Woking but you can't buy a through ticket via that route.

 

[455driver]

Unfortunately the actual connection time between the services at Aldershot is 3 minutes. So because it's 1 minute under the official connection time one is told to wait 33 minutes. It's officially quicker to go via Woking but you can't buy a through ticket via that route.

I cant think of one guard that would bother if somebody was on the earlier train than they should have been, most locals know the score anyway.
That connection time is a load of rubbish though and is one of those that needs to be looked at but nobody actually cares.

 

[HowardGWR]

I cant think of one guard that would bother if somebody was on the earlier train than they should have been, most locals know the score anyway.
That connection time is a load of rubbish though and is one of those that needs to be looked at but nobody actually cares.

I think that it is a shame that so many journeys that could be possible from SWT are made uncompetitive due to the lack of a through service. One wastes huge amounts of time due to having to change. North South journeys are such, as we have discussed here before. What market is being lost is another matter though, as we don't really have an insight.

Try e.g. Crewkerne to Swindon and see what emerges.

 

[455driver]

SWT do seem to time trains so they dont connect, at least officially.
One of my pet hates!

I see the SWT departures from Exeter have been retimed a minute earlier (and so make the connection out of the Northbound XC service more difficult) except the 0826 which is now timed at 0823 making it impossible for the many passengers from Newton Abbot etc to catch it up to Central as the XC isnt booked to arrive until 0820, the SWT service then sits at Honiton for 4 minutes. Well done SWT, really good customer service, not!

 

[vikingdriver]

SWT do seem to time trains so they dont connect, at least officially.
One of my pet hates!

I see the SWT departures from Exeter have been retimed a minute earlier (and so make the connection out of the Northbound XC service more difficult) except the 0826 which is now timed at 0823 making it impossible for the many passengers from Newton Abbot etc to catch it up to Central as the XC isnt booked to arrive until 0820, the SWT service then sits at Honiton for 4 minutes. Well done SWT, really good customer service, not!

I believe that time at Honiton only exists until they build Cranbrook.

 

[455driver]

I believe that time at Honiton only exists until they build Cranbrook.

The time needed for the Cranbrook stop was built into the timetable when the service went hourly several years ago.
Even if that was the case it wouldnt account for why that one train is times 2 minutes earlier than every other one.
When the SWT trains left at xx26 they still ended up waiting time at quite a few stations such is the amount of slack in the timetable.

 

[vikingdriver]

The time needed for the Cranbrook stop was built into the timetable when the service went hourly several years ago.
Even if that was the case it wouldnt account for why that one train is times 2 minutes earlier than every other one.
When the SWT trains left at xx26 they still ended up waiting time at quite a few stations such is the amount of slack in the timetable.

Must have taken them years to get round to telling us drivers and guards then!

 

[HowardGWR]

The time needed for the Cranbrook stop was built into the timetable when the service went hourly several years ago.
Even if that was the case it wouldnt account for why that one train is times 2 minutes earlier than every other one.
When the SWT trains left at xx26 they still ended up waiting time at quite a few stations such is the amount of slack in the timetable.

Well, that slack is yet another issue, but as long as we have single line sections and possible PPM stats being used to pillory in the press (and so on), one cannot blame SWT for being conservative. The connection times at St Davids being poor, is a point well made, but I assume this is all down to separate franchise problems?

 

[hassaanhc]

SWT do seem to time trains so they dont connect, at least officially.
One of my pet hates!

I see the SWT departures from Exeter have been retimed a minute earlier (and so make the connection out of the Northbound XC service more difficult) except the 0826 which is now timed at 0823 making it impossible for the many passengers from Newton Abbot etc to catch it up to Central as the XC isnt booked to arrive until 0820, the SWT service then sits at Honiton for 4 minutes. Well done SWT, really good customer service, not!

The connection at Twickenham between the Hounslow and the Kingston services is excellent, just 6-8 minutes towards Kingston and 5 minutes towards Hounslow . This means the journey can be completed in 30 minutes, and is much better than the 45-50 minutes the bus takes (of course not when it comes to the 2tph frequency!)

 

[LateThanNever]

The time needed for the Cranbrook stop was built into the timetable when the service went hourly several years ago.
Even if that was the case it wouldnt account for why that one train is times 2 minutes earlier than every other one.
When the SWT trains left at xx26 they still ended up waiting time at quite a few stations such is the amount of slack in the timetable.

I thought the time penalty was only payable for a late arrival at the destination? So the slack is just over-cautious financial padding. Surely they could wait - if they need to - at Salisbury rather than Honiton and leave Exeter SD at a proper connecting time as well!

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the time penalty was only payable for a late arrival at the destination? So the slack is just over-cautious financial padding. Surely they could wait - if they need to - at Salisbury rather than Honiton and leave Exeter SD at a proper connecting time as well!

The waits are generally due to running an hourly service with defined crossing points on a mainly single line. Nothing much to to do with 'over cautious financial padding' really, but making sure that late running in one direction doesn't affect the trains going in the opposite direction.

 

[455driver]

The waits are generally due to running an hourly service with defined crossing points on a mainly single line. Nothing much to to do with 'over cautious financial padding' really, but making sure that late running in one direction doesn't affect the trains going in the opposite direction.

Which all worked perfectly fine when the trains left Exeter at xx26, now they leave at xx23 or xx25 with the trains in the other direction being the same times as they have always been so why the change?

 

[infobleep]

Which all worked perfectly fine when the trains left Exeter at xx26, now they leave at xx23 or xx25 with the trains in the other direction being the same times as they have always been so why the change?

Because they can change it. Connection times is another pet hate of mine too. Apparently you only need 5 minutes to change at Gatwick Airport between Southern and South Eastern but 10 minutes for First Great Western. You will be waiting a lot longer than 10 minutes for a SouthEastern service! Lol.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which all worked perfectly fine when the trains left Exeter at xx26, now they leave at xx23 or xx25 with the trains in the other direction being the same times as they have always been so why the change?

I was trying to comment on the more general suggestion that they should just 'wait at Salisbury', rather than Honiton, not the specific point about that Exeter departure.