Do more people still want to travel by train on Saturdays than Sundays?

[dcsprior]

Places do have shorter opening hours on Sunday and it's not just because of demand. Larger shops are limited to 8 hours of opening on Sunday by law.

This is not the case everywhere in the UK. Larger shops in England and Wales are limited to 6 hours of trading (with many having 30 minutes "browse time" at the start of the day, so the doors are open for 6.5 hours total)

In Scotland their is no such restriction, and indeed there are shops here open 24x7

I don't know about NI

 

[alexjames]

The problem with many long distance Sunday services is that there are fewer of them, as has been mentioned above, and they tend to be more expensive. I assume that is because more people are travelling (per available train, not absolutely). Particularly annoying for me because most of my long or longish distance rail travel is football related. On far too many occasions the tellymuppets insist on a particular match being switched from Saturday to Sunday. Typically, the fare (compared as advances) increases by 40% or thereabouts. A thoroughly irritating side effect of the requirement to feed the sadsack tellymuppets with their vicarious entertainment at, say, 16.00 on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I've always said the service is provided by Metrolink is good. Sort out all the other problems with it and you can convert as much as you like!

Good ? When sections of it aren't being shut down at short notice for 'essential repairs'. it's been a bit of a let down on a number of occassions for me. No Bury service when I wanted to get to Bury (on a Saturday) and twice I have ended up walking from Piccadilly to Victoria. If connecting between the two I factor in the walking time as at least I know I can rely on my own two hooves to get me between the two. Just wish they would 'own up' when they have delays instead of having us hang round at Piccadilly.
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As per Saturday to Sunday - even with not so many football supporters using trains and with many premier league matches no longer being on a Saturday there are still around 30 or 40 football league matches (as well as lower leagues) with a fair amount of travelling fans using train services on a Saturday. Although it could be said that there are many others who avoid travelling on matchdays so as not to encounter the more boisterous element among football supporters.

 

[Mojo]

I suspect a lot of weekly commuters travel on a Sunday evening precisely because the trains are so expensive on a Monday morning.

I agree; and even those who have just gone away for leisure or to see friends/family over the weekend too.

I was staying in Bristol the other week and was planning on braving the Sunday evening crush because I had to be back at work early on Monday morning, however I discovered that on the first train of the day (the 04.47 from Temple Meads) you can use the Super Off-peak to London, so I decided to stay an extra night and travel on the Monday morning. This is not possible for similar-length journeys on the WCML (unless you have a Railcard), MML, ECML or GEML, but seems to make sense as Great Western are encouraging their customers to travel on a quiet train of a morning which other Tocs seem to want to apply a blanket 'peak' restriction to.

 

[Saint66]

Having lived with the Thameslink service at my doorstep, Sunday service, post St Pancras Upgrade, and also apart from the current central London blockages, is very good, and as you would expect, is quieter.

However, I do find that a large volume of commuters during the week is replaced by day trippers and tourists on the weekends, so you're never really going to get a completely empty service.

Plus, dependent on engineering works, we still have Thameslink trains throughout the night every hour or so over the weekends, so again, in that respect, we're lucky here.

 

[dysonsphere]

Crewe-derby is due to only having 1 shift in all of the manual boxes along the derby-stoke section of the route. Still in this day and age its a pretty poor service when a local route can barely get you to the shops before they close!

Quite when I wanted to go to Nottingham on a Sunday the first train Eastbound from Longton was after 1400 its insane.

 

[MisterWhippy]

Actually seeing a train in Spalding on a Sunday would be a start :roll:

I was precisely going to say that. At least everyone else has a train service on a Sunday!

 

[edwin_m]

I was precisely going to say that. At least everyone else has a train service on a Sunday!

Back in the 70s there were many lines with no Sunday service. There must be very few now.

 

[northwichcat]

I've always said the service is provided by Metrolink is good. Sort out all the other problems with it and you can convert as much as you like!

Metrolink does run a Sunday service on Bank Holidays though whereas most heavy rail lines run a usual weekday service on Bank Holidays.
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This is not the case everywhere in the UK. Larger shops in England and Wales are limited to 6 hours of trading (with many having 30 minutes "browse time" at the start of the day, so the doors are open for 6.5 hours total)

In Scotland their is no such restriction, and indeed there are shops here open 24x7

I don't know about NI

I did mean 6 hours not 8 hours.

One effect that can have is people may find the appeal of a Sunday walk around places like Edale or Delamere more appealing if the Sunday frequency of rail services matches the Saturday frequency even if they find a shopping trip to Liverpool or Sheffield less appealing on a Sunday.

The Sunday frequency of Scotrail services and Northern Irish services aren't specified by DfT which should in theory make it easier to change the frequency to suit local demand.

 

[Moonshot]

Metrolink does run a Sunday service on Bank Holidays though whereas most heavy rail lines run a usual weekday service on Bank Holidays.
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I did mean 6 hours not 8 hours.

One effect that can have is people may find the appeal of a Sunday walk around places like Edale or Delamere more appealing if the Sunday frequency of rail services matches the Saturday frequency even if they find a shopping trip to Liverpool or Sheffield less appealing on a Sunday.

The Sunday frequency of Scotrail services and Northern Irish services aren't specified by DfT which should in theory make it easier to change the frequency to suit local demand.

Which also means a lot more empty trains on a bank holiday .....and extra cost. I m sure Northern could do a lot to reduce subsidy figure if trains were cancelled on a bank holiday.

 

[route:oxford]

The Sunday frequency of Scotrail services and Northern Irish services aren't specified by DfT which should in theory make it easier to change the frequency to suit local demand.

Scotrail have done reasonably well in that regard for the Games.

Shame it is back to business as usual on a Sunday morning soon with late starts.

 

[jon0844]

On far too many occasions the tellymuppets insist on a particular match being switched from Saturday to Sunday. Typically, the fare (compared as advances) increases by 40% or thereabouts. A thoroughly irritating side effect of the requirement to feed the sadsack tellymuppets with their vicarious entertainment at, say, 16.00 on a Sunday afternoon.

If we got rid of the silly rule that bans matches being televised in the early/mid-afternoon, that might hopefully stop.

It's crazy when I am sure there are enough fans that would still attend 3pm games even if shown on TV, and what's the point in having just a handful of games each week that are blocked out?

 

[northwichcat]

Which also means a lot more empty trains on a bank holiday .....and extra cost. I m sure Northern could do a lot to reduce subsidy figure if trains were cancelled on a bank holiday.

Depends on what's happening on the Bank Holiday.

The first Bank Holiday in May the normal weekday service on the Mid-Cheshire line was struggling (not sure how Metrolink fared), while on the second Bank Holiday in May the service on the Mid-Cheshire line was adequate but a Sunday frequency on Metrolink between Manchester and Salford Quays was proving inadequate.

Would the Northern staff be happy to take a pay cut if most Bank Holidays were removed as standard working days?

 

[Moonshot]

Depends on what's happening on the Bank Holiday.

The first Bank Holiday in May the normal weekday service on the Mid-Cheshire line was struggling (not sure how Metrolink fared), while on the second Bank Holiday in May the service on the Mid-Cheshire line was adequate but a Sunday frequency between Manchester and Salford Quays was proving inadequate.

Which then goes back to your point of tailoring services to local demand....Northern run far too many empty trains on a bank holiday...its a simple fact.

 

[northwichcat]

If we got rid of the silly rule that bans matches being televised in the early/mid-afternoon, that might hopefully stop.

It's crazy when I am sure there are enough fans that would still attend 3pm games even if shown on TV, and what's the point in having just a handful of games each week that are blocked out?

Some of the lunchtime kick offs for matches between local rivals are on Police advice where they think a later kick off might result in a lot of alcohol being consumed before the game.

There is no reason why there can't be multiple televised matches kicking off at 12:30 on Saturday or at the same time on Sunday other than broadcasters being concerned about advertising revenue.
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Northern run far too many empty trains on a bank holiday...its a simple fact.

I think one issue Northern suffer from is they run a weekday service on Bank Holidays but don't advertise it (except on Journey Planning websites) so some people may wrongly assume Northern do the same as Metrolink and local bus operators on Bank Holidays when that's not the case.

If the Saturday timetable had peak time extras at the busiest times on Saturday (opposed to the times of the weekday peak time extras), then the Saturday timetable could work a lot better on Bank Holidays with the same number of services, especially if it was clearly marked as 'Saturdays and Bank Holidays' in the timetable.

 

[Moonshot]

Some of the lunchtime kick offs for matches between local rivals are on Police advice where they think a later kick off might result in a lot of alcohol being consumed before the game.

There is no reason why there can't be multiple televised matches kicking off at 12:30 on Saturday or at the same time on Sunday other than broadcasters being concerned about advertising revenue.
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I think one issue Northern suffer from is they run a weekday service on Bank Holidays but don't advertise it (except on Journey Planning websites) so some people may wrongly assume Northern do the same as Metrolink and local bus operators on Bank Holidays when that's not the case.

If the Saturday timetable had peak time extras at the busiest times on Saturday (opposed to the times of the weekday peak time extras), then the Saturday timetable could work a lot better on Bank Holidays with the same number of services, especially if it was clearly marked as 'Saturdays and Bank Holidays' in the timetable.

Which isnt an issue which affects commuters who in general are off ( it is a bank HOLIDAY after all ).......and I can absolutely guarentee you that packed peak trains on a normal working day are somewhat very empty on a bank holiday. In case you are not aware, there is less demand on the railway on a bank holiday.....thats a fact.

 

[northwichcat]

Which isnt an issue which affects commuters who in general are off ( it is a bank HOLIDAY after all ).......and I can absolutely guarentee you that packed peak trains on a normal working day are somewhat very empty on a bank holiday. In case you are not aware, there is less demand on the railway on a bank holiday.....thats a fact.

So you're saying that the fact that there can be more than double the number of services on a Bank Holiday compared to a Sunday wouldn't make travelling on a Bank Holiday a more attractive proposition if the frequency was better publicised?

Don't forget that once commuters with regular season ticket holders have paid they can make any number of journeys within the validity of their season ticket for no additional cost. However, at weekends and Bank Holidays you have leisure travellers who are paying per journey so you can finish up making more revenue from less passengers. Although with ticket offices having weekday opening hours and demand not having as many peaks I imagine there's less opportunities for conductors to make commission on Bank Holidays.

 

[Moonshot]

So you're saying that the fact that there can be more than double the number of services on a Bank Holiday compared to a Sunday wouldn't make travelling on a Bank Holiday a more attractive proposition if the frequency was better publicised?

Don't forget that once commuters with regular season ticket holders have paid they can make any number of journeys within the validity of their season ticket for no additional cost. However, at weekends and Bank Holidays you have leisure travellers who are paying per journey so you can finish up making more revenue from less passengers. Although with ticket offices having weekday opening hours and demand not having as many peaks I imagine there's less opportunities for conductors to make commission on Bank Holidays.

I really dont know why you dont understand the point..........it is very simple........there is less demand on the railway on bank holidays than there is a normal working day. It really is that simple. If Northern had the choice , I m sure they would run less trains......if conductors had the choice , I m 100% postive that they would rather have the day off, a fact I 100% know because the amount of holiday requests refused by rosters is at its highest for a bank holiday.

 

[northwichcat]

I really dont know why you dont understand the point..........it is very simple........there is less demand on the railway on bank holidays than there is a normal working day. It really is that simple. If Northern had the choice , I m sure they would run less trains......if conductors had the choice , I m 100% postive that they would rather have the day off, a fact I 100% know because the amount of holiday requests refused by rosters is at its highest for a bank holiday.

As usual you've gone off on a tangent and then, as usual, followed up by saying other people don't understand what you're saying! If you want to talk about something only around 10% relevant to an earlier post then don't quote that post - just start a new post without a quote!

 

[Moonshot]

As usual you've gone off on a tangent and then, as usual, followed up by saying other people don't understand what you're saying! If you want to talk about something only around 10% relevant to an earlier post then don't quote that post - just start a new post without a quote!

Not gone off at a tangent at all......you were the one who first brought bank holidays into this thread............and as far as I am aware, there is no such beast as a Bank Holiday Saturday or a Bank Holiday Sunday.

To bring this to a conclusion, do you understand the basic economic fact that less demand = less supply? Just a simple yes or no please.

 

[northwichcat]

Not gone off at a tangent at all......you were the one who first brought bank holidays into this thread............and as far as I am aware, there is no such beast as a Bank Holiday Saturday or a Bank Holiday Sunday.

I originally stated a simple fact that rail services usually get a higher frequency on Bank Holidays compared Sundays whereas Bank Holidays usually get the same number of Metrolink and bus services as Sundays.

You brought up lack of commuters as the reason for Bank Holiday trains being quiet despite the fact there's Saturday trains with very few commuters that are so crowded it's a struggle to get everyone on. I questioned is the lack of demand on Bank Holidays compared to Saturdays down to the poor publicity of Bank Holiday train times. So maybe you should explain why Saturday trains are so busy despite the lack of commuters and yet that doesn't, in your opinion, happen on Bank Holidays before you start asking further questions. Until your do that I'll assume you last two posts have been trying to divert away from that because you can't explain it and it goes against the points you're trying to make.

 

[Moonshot]

Meanwhile back in the real world, its important to understand that rail travel is a means to an end and not the end in itself. I cant see any evidence that the fare paying public ( with the exception of trainspotters ) actually travel on trains just for the sake of it.

If the Stock Exchange, Whitehall, and all the headquarters of the multi national companies based in London were open 7 days a week and staffed accordingly, I rather think the impact on the rail industry would be markedly different than it is today.....

 

[northwichcat]

Meanwhile back in the real world

This thread is about the real world. Are people being put off travelling on Sundays due to a lower frequency of train travel? It obviously isn't the case that overall the majority of passengers are commuters otherwise British Rail would have axed off-peak, weekend and evening services well before privatisation. Considering BR managed to axe an hourly Stockport-Stalybridge train bar one weekly parliamentary because they thought passengers didn't need the service once North TPE services were diverted to Piccadilly, it goes to show that the trains that were in existence at the end of BR (bar the parliamentaries) are ones which there was considered a need to operate.

The commuters might be the most loyal customers to the train operator but given they pay a reduced price for their loyalty (in the form of a season ticket) they don't necessarily pay more per journey than leisure travellers, in some cases they pay a lot less.

If the Stock Exchange, Whitehall, and all the headquarters of the multi national companies based in London were open 7 days a week and staffed accordingly, I rather think the impact on the rail industry would be markedly different than it is today.....

So what are you saying operators like Virgin over-provide train services on Saturdays (by providing the same standard frequency as weekdays) and provide the correct level of service on Sundays (by providing a reduced service)?

Just as a reminder this is what Manchester Piccadilly looked like on the evening of Saturday 30th November last year: https://twitter.com/Andy_Mac100/status/406895167007100928

 

[Moonshot]

Just whilst we are in the general area, as starmill pointed out at 14.34 yesterday, Manchesters Metrolink , although providing a reduced service on Sundays and Bank Holidays, none the less its still a fantastic frequency. If any of the southern forumites reading this were contemplating spending a weekend here in Manchester, then you can do so safe in the knowledge that any local travel demands you have will be safely met by this brilliant concept of getting around by tram. You can even ( as far as I m aware ) just buy 1 ticket for a fiver which lasts all weekend.

 

[scarby]

The Sunday service at Scarborough has certainly improved a lot, with the starts and finishes gradually getting earlier and later respectively.

In 1976 (September to May) the first departure from Scarborough was at 10.21 and there was then a near four-hour gap to the next service. Just 5 departing York-bound services with the last at 19.45. No trains to Hull.

Now there are 12 York-bound, with the first at 08.53 (this was certainly well after 09.00 until quite recently) and the last at 21.38. Six Hull services as well.

 

[northwichcat]

You can even ( as far as I m aware ) just buy 1 ticket for a fiver which lasts all weekend.

It's such a good deal that you haven't purchased one yourself for quite a while? It's not been £5 for a few years - it's £5.80 these days.

Just to balance out your bias towards Metrolink. Merseyrail offers 8tph between Birkenhead and Liverpool on Sundays compared to Metrolink's 5tph between Salford Quays and Manchester on Sundays. There's also provision for taking bicycles on board Merseyrail as well as up to 2 suitcases, you're welcome to consume hot food & drink on board and there's at least 192 seats on every service. Metrolink bans bicycles, large suitcases are also banned, as is hot food and drink. Metrolink trams have room for over 100 standing on each tram but only 50-60 seats.

 

[Moonshot]

It's such a good deal that you haven't purchased one yourself for quite a while? It's not been £5 for a few years - it's £5.80 these days.

Just to balance out your bias towards Metrolink. Merseyrail offers 8tph between Birkenhead and Liverpool on Sundays compared to Metrolink's 5tph between Salford Quays and Manchester on Sundays. There's also provision for taking bicycles on board Merseyrail as well as up to 2 suitcases, you're welcome to consume hot food & drink on board and there's at least 192 seats on every service. Metrolink bans bicycles, large suitcases are also banned, as is hot food and drink. Metrolink trams have room for over 100 standing on each tram but only 50-60 seats.

Im sure our friends in London are used to standing and not been able to take a cycle on board......the Tube sees to that. Of course trams dont have an operational subsidy, and of course ticket machines on every platform on the station. Any of our London friends who are also Man City supporters cant complain.....The Etihad Stadium has its own stop.

So come on up guys, the nightlife is excellent, loads of hotels and a brilliant tram network to boot.......if you have the time, combine it with a trip to Liverpool, its so easy to get there as well and even better when Northern introduce electric stock on that route in the very near future.
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It's such a good deal that you haven't purchased one yourself for quite a while? It's not been £5 for a few years - it's £5.80 these days.

.

Why would I buy one, I get free travel on the rail network anyway, but in any event, a quick flash of my Northern Rail pass to Metrolink staff usually secures me free tram travel as well.....

 

[harz99]

Why would I buy one, I get free travel on the rail network anyway, but in any event, a quick flash of my Northern Rail pass to Metrolink staff usually secures me free tram travel as well.....

Maybe that's something you should keep to yourself....................

 

[Hellfire]

Metrolink bans bicycles, large suitcases are also banned, as is hot food and drink. Metrolink trams have room for over 100 standing on each tram but only 50-60 seats.

Metrolink ban dogs too, something I cannot understand.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Im sure our friends in London are used to standing and not been able to take a cycle on board......the Tube sees to that. Of course trams dont have an operational subsidy, and of course ticket machines on every platform on the station. Any of our London friends who are also Man City supporters cant complain.....The Etihad Stadium has its own stop.

So come on up guys, the nightlife is excellent, loads of hotels and a brilliant tram network to boot.......if you have the time, combine it with a trip to Liverpool, its so easy to get there as well and even better when Northern introduce electric stock on that route in the very near future.
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Why would I buy one, I get free travel on the rail network anyway, but in any event, a quick flash of my Northern Rail pass to Metrolink staff usually secures me free tram travel as well.....

Hmmm... great nightlife? Kind of depends on what you consider great. At least the capital is not awash with gangs of drunks staggering from one 'circuit' drinking barn to the next as most of our provincial cities seem to have be.
As for metrolink - I'll still factor in walking between Piccadilly and Victoria when I need to change between the two - and ensure I obtain a bus timetable for Bury.