There are some very good quality pubs and bars around Leeds. Since I have to get the last train home for half ten, I seem to avoid the worst of any rowdiness.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Do more people still want to travel by train on Saturdays than Sundays?
- Thread starter infobleep
- Start date
- Status
There are some very good quality pubs and bars around Leeds. Since I have to get the last train home for half ten, I seem to avoid the worst of any rowdiness.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
northwichcat
Veteran Member
So in short you're a fare evader who keeps going on about rail services not being profitable - the irony! Do you also let rail and Metrolink staff travel for free on Northern services even when they aren't entitled to free travel?
Last edited by a moderator:
Why would I be a fare evader when I stated that I show my pass to trams staff?......they have every right to refuse me....but they dont because there is a gentlemans agreement in place.
Yes I do....and the reason I do that ( in common with every other guard I know ) is that in the extremely unlikely event of a rail incident, I am aware of rail staff aboard my train who have the ability to help me mitigate such incidents.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Moonshot, so I'll put this in another way. If a passenger showed the STM RPI at Victoria a System One Daysaver Bus+Tram and the RPI let them on to your train, then they wouldn't be a fare evader because a member of staff has given them the OK to travel on that ticket even though it's not valid? What happens when there's no Metrolink staff around do you just jump on a tram without buying a ticket because you have a Northern Rail pass?
If any rail staff need to get between point A and B on another operator's service as part of their job then they would be entitled to claim back any ticket price as expenses.
Last edited by a moderator:
Which happens to me and other Northern Guards on a regular basis - its in our diagrams. But we dont cough up any money up front for it.
Of course you yourself are perfectly entitled to free rail travel on Northern services.......simply apply for a post as a voluntary station adopter and hey presto .....a rail pass comes your way. Do you think you would enjoy such a role where you are making a practical contribution to this amazing industry ?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Well currently there aren't any Metrolink services between Piccadilly and Victoria and there's no replacement bus either. Even when there are they are every 12 minutes so unless you know one's just about to arrive it's usually just as quick to walk, as long as you know the way.
Bus 135 (every 10 minutes) seems to take around the same time between Piccadilly Gardens and Heaton Park as Metrolink would when there's a direct service between the two but is slower to Whitefield and Bury. First Bus offer a £50 monthly ticket for all First Manchester services, while Metrolink would charge you £73 for a monthly ticket between Heaton Park and Central Manchester only. :eek:
Just to point out to those who are not aware, the reason there are no direct services is that currently , Victoria station is being redeveloped and the tram stop is closed. Part of that development is the addition of an extra line and platform to accomadate the ever growing Tram network which is extremely popular with the Greater Manchester travelling public.
Once Victoria tram stop is re opened, it will be perfectly possible to get a tram between Vic and Pic direct.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
To bring the thread back on topic.
Under the franchise specification Northern are required to run an hourly Southport-Stockport via Bolton service on Sunday, an hourly Buxton to Manchester service and a 3 hourly Chester-Altrincham service and no service on the Atherton line and no Hazel Grove terminators on Sunday.
They agreed to run a 2 hourly Southport-Stockport service and a 2 hourly Southport-Stockport-Altrincham-Chester service due to high usage on the 3 hourly Chester-Altrincham service. Northern apparently have seen a 400% increase in Sunday usage since the change and there have been calls for an hourly Sunday service on the Mid-Cheshire line.
TfGM agreed to fund an extension of the 2 hourly Southport-Stockport services to Hazel Grove and an hourly service on the Atherton line on Sunday. I don't know what the loadings are like but I'm guessing they've been successful as the additions have remained.
There's also some additional Sunday morning services on the Stoke line funded by Cheshire East council which have been successful enough to remain.
Under the franchise specification Northern are required to run an hourly Southport-Stockport via Bolton service on Sunday, an hourly Buxton to Manchester service and a 3 hourly Chester-Altrincham service and no service on the Atherton line and no Hazel Grove terminators on Sunday.
They agreed to run a 2 hourly Southport-Stockport service and a 2 hourly Southport-Stockport-Altrincham-Chester service due to high usage on the 3 hourly Chester-Altrincham service. Northern apparently have seen a 400% increase in Sunday usage since the change and there have been calls for an hourly Sunday service on the Mid-Cheshire line.
TfGM agreed to fund an extension of the 2 hourly Southport-Stockport services to Hazel Grove and an hourly service on the Atherton line on Sunday. I don't know what the loadings are like but I'm guessing they've been successful as the additions have remained.
There's also some additional Sunday morning services on the Stoke line funded by Cheshire East council which have been successful enough to remain.
Last edited by a moderator:
Butts
Veteran Member
I feel the service between Glasgow and Edinburgh could start a little earlier on Sundays.
I am travelling to Falkirk and the first train is not until 0750. If I am working on a Saturday Night the Car is used or failing that a 50 minute wait ensues in order to get home.
The first outbound service from Edinburgh to Glasgow is even later (after 8am)
Also a Sunday Service between FKG and Glasgow which exists Monday to Saturday would be good rather than just from FKK.
During the Commonwealth Games extra services were laid on late at night but none earlier in the Morning on a Sunday.
I am travelling to Falkirk and the first train is not until 0750. If I am working on a Saturday Night the Car is used or failing that a 50 minute wait ensues in order to get home.
The first outbound service from Edinburgh to Glasgow is even later (after 8am)
Also a Sunday Service between FKG and Glasgow which exists Monday to Saturday would be good rather than just from FKK.
During the Commonwealth Games extra services were laid on late at night but none earlier in the Morning on a Sunday.
To get this thread truly back on topic and to answer the question in the title...." Do more people still want to travel by train on Saturdays than Sundays "
The answer to that imo is absolutely yes.....and the reason for that is Monday to Friday train use perception is for reasons of commuting to work....Saturdays attracts shoppers as Saturday is considered a shopping day. Also despite the best intentions of Sky, 95% of football matches in the UK still take place on a Saturday.
Sunday is a day of leisure for most people........of course people have a choice in how they spend their Sundays. If train travel per se is seen as a necessary evil for those working Monday to Friday, I fail to see what the attraction is for rail travel on a Sunday is if you have a choice on how to spend that leisure time. And imo a lot of people on Sundays tend to spend that leisure time either at the garden centre or B and Q !!
The answer to that imo is absolutely yes.....and the reason for that is Monday to Friday train use perception is for reasons of commuting to work....Saturdays attracts shoppers as Saturday is considered a shopping day. Also despite the best intentions of Sky, 95% of football matches in the UK still take place on a Saturday.
Sunday is a day of leisure for most people........of course people have a choice in how they spend their Sundays. If train travel per se is seen as a necessary evil for those working Monday to Friday, I fail to see what the attraction is for rail travel on a Sunday is if you have a choice on how to spend that leisure time. And imo a lot of people on Sundays tend to spend that leisure time either at the garden centre or B and Q !!
Butts
Veteran Member
Wherever you are spending your "day of leisure" you can bet your bottom dollar someone is working in order to facilitate this. Be it B&Q or Garden Centres or anywhere else
Wherever you are spending your "day of leisure" you can bet your bottom dollar someone is working in order to facilitate this. Be it B&Q or Garden Centres or anywhere else
Oh dont I know it.....the amount of flyers I get through my door for B and Q which is close by is astounding.
Interstingly it was pointed out further up that TfGM are funding some increases in Sunday services locally......you have to question the reason for spending taxpayers funds on services for which their is no compelled demand unlike Monday to Friday peak services. Certainly if austerity measures get tighter ( and its increasingly likely they will ) I rather think that sponsored Sunday railway services would be a prime target for cutbacks.....
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Quite often using council tax payer's money to fund a public transport service is because either:
(a) It's a necessity for some people but not for enough people for the service to operate commercially.
(b) It may be commercially viable but the public transport operators don't want to take the financial risk, so they fund it for a limited time to get actual passenger figures. Then a decision can be made at a later date as to whether an operator could run it commercially, or if (a) applies, or neither.
Even if a service operates 'commercially' if it has a high number of passes shown indicating free travel like the ENTCS passes then it can finish up costing more to council tax payers than a subsided scheme, as is the case with the 'commercial' Chester Rail Link.
Last edited by a moderator:
Why ?
If there is a demand for these train services on a Sunday, and these services contribute to the wellbeing of local people and the economy, then they seem a very sensible thing on which to spend taxpayers money.
Remember, the motivation for subsidising services on a weekday is not that people "are compelled to travel" but because the train service enables people to contribute to the economy whilst at the same time relieving road congestion. These motivations exist for leisure travel as well as commuting for work.
People are compelled to travel weekdays because the majority have the compelling need to get to work. Regulated fares exist particularly in London because there is very little alternative to rail travel in the first place.
As far as your point goes about spending taxpayers money on Sunday services, as I pointed out earlier and is very well recognised ...there is increasing pressure on public funds. Already we have seen pensioners free travel in the yorkshire areas severley curtailed........and if you were of a political nature and had to face a choice of whether to fund Sunday train travel, or instead use that money to improve local NHS services ( including GPs opening on a Sunday etc which also contributes to the wellbeing of a community ) , I rather think that NHS services would win.
If an open access operator wants to approach our industry to run Sunday only services without recourse to any public funds, I m sure they would be more than welcome!!
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Well the TfGM funded extension of rail services to Hazel Grove serves Woodmoor Station near Stepping Hill Hospital. People in Knutsford and Chelford would love to have public transport to their local hospital (Macclesfield) on Sundays and Bank Holidays.
Woodsmoor is one of those stations that is fortunate enough to be close by to a hospital......quite ironic when i consider that only yesterday that when I was working through there , not one passenger actually got on or off.
What you also forget is that anyone requiring emergency medical treatment can have their transport needs taken care of in the form of an ambulance.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
No I haven't forgotten that. I've remembered that people who are discharged from a hospital usually need to make their own way of getting home and that visitors don't always have their own transport.
Which rail cannot cater for because the majority of hospitals dont have a rail station attached to them.......bus services do cater for this though, and in my experience of the NHS through working for them, discharge rates are far higher for days during the week as opposed to Sundays anyway ( Sunday is the quietest day of the week for the NHS ). Its no secret that hospitals cater for the vast majority of ops which are routine on this basis.
You seem to have missed my point. The "compelling" nature of commuter transport might well be the reason behind regulated fares, but it is not the sole motivation behind subsidised public transport. Subsidised transport is provided for a number of reasons, including to reduce congestion in cities, to stimulate the local economy by way or providing increased employment and leisure opportunities and to provide a public service (yes, I said public service) to those who don't drive. These are only partly associated with commuting.
Whilst people are protective of their schools and hospitals, they do tend to appreciate that there are other services they need to pay for. You don't hear many people arguing for the abolition of the army or flood defences for example.
I suspect there would be a local outcry if they tried to abolish a Sunday service on the Atherton line.
route:oxford
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Nov 2008
- Messages
- 4,949
So, how much would it cost to sponsor a 6-car class 170 7am all-stations Perth to Edinburgh (or Glasgow) service on a Sunday Morning?
GatwickDepress
Established Member
My knowledge of authority budgetary allocations is rather lacking but I have my doubts that any money saved by curtailing Sunday public transport services would even be reallocated to anywhere else within the transport department, let alone transferred over to health.
The railways have long been obliged to provide a public service and long may they do so. I've been discharged from a hospital on Sunday evening; without the railways I would've ended up sleeping rough for a night.
The railways have long been obliged to provide a public service and long may they do so. I've been discharged from a hospital on Sunday evening; without the railways I would've ended up sleeping rough for a night.
Class 170101
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 8,389
ECML and WCML have blocks Saturday afternoon to Sunday afternoon because this time is quiet for them. These are driven by the main East Coast and West Coast operator (East Coast and Virgin West Coast). However it can screw up other operators big time impacting on their markets which will be driven by Sundays being quiet and Saturdays being busier.
Hence on West Coast a 20:00 Saturday start until 12:00 Sunday is accepted yet on the East Coast in places they start as early as 13:00 Saturday and finish around 13:00 Sunday.
These two operators have clout but it can be at the expense of local operators serving the Saturday market. Notice how a block between Darlington and Newcastle will impact on East Coast, Cross Country, Northern and TPE yet East Coast will nearly always win.
Hence on West Coast a 20:00 Saturday start until 12:00 Sunday is accepted yet on the East Coast in places they start as early as 13:00 Saturday and finish around 13:00 Sunday.
These two operators have clout but it can be at the expense of local operators serving the Saturday market. Notice how a block between Darlington and Newcastle will impact on East Coast, Cross Country, Northern and TPE yet East Coast will nearly always win.
I always find Sunday afternoons busy from Cornwall to London.
Yesterday I went up to Plymouth the train I caught was due at Taunton around noon. Nearly every seat was reserved east of Taunton, west of Taunton there was very few reservations.
I used to fly to Athens frequently on a Sunday or a Wednesday, and the plane was always full on Sundays, yet perhaps around 50% full on the Wednesday. Sundays always seemed to be all business people. Wednesdays were leisure, at an assumption from people's outfits,
Yesterday I went up to Plymouth the train I caught was due at Taunton around noon. Nearly every seat was reserved east of Taunton, west of Taunton there was very few reservations.
I used to fly to Athens frequently on a Sunday or a Wednesday, and the plane was always full on Sundays, yet perhaps around 50% full on the Wednesday. Sundays always seemed to be all business people. Wednesdays were leisure, at an assumption from people's outfits,
dk1
Veteran Member
Amazing to see how much Sunday travel has changed in the last 20 or so years. Always was quite busy afternoons with long distance travel but nothing like today. Local traffic is vastly up with a vastly better service on many routes. Could have been rush hour at Birmingham New St last Sunday lunchtime as was so bustly. & the 5-car Voyager on the 09.15 XC ex-Bristol was full from Gloucester. On my patch, nearly all local routes out of Norwich now run hourly year round on Sundays & the IC service to London needs to be half-hourly from 14.00-20.00 at least. Stratford is also a madhouse from 11am thanks to Westfield.
True. But if you compare frequency and capacity match even Metrolink's Sunday service tends to be better than the off-peak local train service...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Always? Really?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Lots of members here might disagree, as would a good chunk of the people on my Settle & Carlisle train today.
Not that that tends to make much difference, but more sweeping statements about things you are pretending to know lots about are helping nobody!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unless it's closed!?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The fastest trains are not operated by Northern, and will not be going over to electric traction for years.
If you still wanted to use the electric service (if for some weird reason motive power affected tourist's decisions) you'd get a much less comfortable interior for it.
Don't start working for the Tourist Info place will you!?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why would an open access operator care about contributing to improvements to the local economy and wider mobility in society enough to run a loss-making service? That is the whole point of using public funds!?
Oh I dont doubt it does all the above, but whilst the industry still sucks in so much public money, its inevitable that it will be subject to the same squeeze on funds as other public services - rail has been rather fortunate over the last few years in that respect.
There may well be a local outcry if Sunday services on the Atherton line are abolished, but if you accept the fact that public transport is a means to an end ( despite trainspotters saying otherwise ) , then if such provision was made by other means which didnt need a subsidy/sponsoring, then no one can have any complaints. I can certainly vouch for the fact that Atherton line trains on a Sunday are not full!!
As for abolition of the Army, I rather think that our armed forces have somewhat shrunk in size over the years, there are certainly a few of my colleagues at Northern who took redundancy from there.
And what is this magic transport solution for the Atherton line which would provide a siotable Sunday service with no subsidy ? Don't say bus because a bus service isn't equivalent. People require an element of speed and reliability that the railway provides.
The infrastructure and rolling stock are already there and it makes sense to utilise it on a Sunday rather than have it sitting around while we employ another set of people with a different set of skills and equipment to serve the route on Sunday.
Whilst the Atherton route may not be crush loaded, I've always found it reasonably busy on a Sunday, particularly for a service that didn't exist until a couple of years ago.
The infrastructure and rolling stock are already there and it makes sense to utilise it on a Sunday rather than have it sitting around while we employ another set of people with a different set of skills and equipment to serve the route on Sunday.
Whilst the Atherton route may not be crush loaded, I've always found it reasonably busy on a Sunday, particularly for a service that didn't exist until a couple of years ago.
Last edited:
If I was going out for the night it would be a Friday or Saturday night but rarely a Sunday as I have work the next day.
If I was organising a trip with friends I'd more likely do it on a Saturday simply because the train service is more frequent and also faster. If you want a more leisurely travel you'd go on a Sunday.
I wonder if there would be an increase in travel were it possible to offer the same level of service on a Sunday as on a Saturday. I'm not suggesting it actually is possible just wondering how it would impact on numbers travelling were such a thing possible.
If I was organising a trip with friends I'd more likely do it on a Saturday simply because the train service is more frequent and also faster. If you want a more leisurely travel you'd go on a Sunday.
I wonder if there would be an increase in travel were it possible to offer the same level of service on a Sunday as on a Saturday. I'm not suggesting it actually is possible just wondering how it would impact on numbers travelling were such a thing possible.
Maybe the answer lies in not looking at rail services in isolation, and instead taking into account what they are designed to do and how they fit into wider context. Certainly if there was a marked shift in working practices from the 9-5 routine into work spread over 7 days, then numbers travelling would increase.
- Status