Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[Moonshot]

Couldn't be further off the mark.

This has been brewing since the McNulty drivel. Remember that consultation telling us how we have to have a consistant fares policy a couple of months ago? (No prizes for guessing what direction fares will be harmonised in. Clue - extortionate fares on TPE won't be changed).

This whole thing is a product of DaFT.

Well that really depends on looking at what people pay as an average, and I can tell you that the average price for a single rail journey in the UK is £5.

 

[Starmill]

I would say there should be plenty of publicity in advance to minimise staff conflict, but knowing how things actually work, I expect there will be none at all.

I don't know. I can think of plenty of staff who will take great delight in informing people who ask for evening returns or evening rangers that these products are no longer available, and their only option is one at at least double the old one.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The new restriction code is ND

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on trains timed to depart between 0930 - 1600 inc and from 1830 onwards.
RETURN TRAVEL
Any train the same day except those timed to depart between 1601 - 1829 inc

I note it doesn't say you can complete your journey if it involves a change and the second train departs after 1601.

There are fifteen different restriction codes to cover the various routes and journeys, the majority of the differences are morning restrictions that already exist, however there are two different evening restrictions, one for Hexham-Newcastle and one for the rest. For completeness, the codes are ND, NE, NF, NG, NH, NI, NJ, NK, NL, NM and NR for Off-Peak Day and Ranger tickets, and NN, NO, NP and NQ for Duo tickets

If you want Warrington BQ-Manchester you will travel on an ATW service - although it's an NT-set fare.
It just happens to be my regular line.
Folk don't comprehend obscure TOC boundaries and rules.
Hopefully "Rail North" will sort it all out...

Whilst Warrington Bank Quay to Manchester is likely to be on ATW (you could use Northern all the way) it is issued as Warrington Stns to Manchester Stns, which also covers Northern, FTPE and EMT services from Warrington Central.

I don't think the objective is to confuse, just to rip off....

It is to raise revenue, as part of the deal with the DfT to run the service (do not, for one minute, think that if any other company ran the service it would be any different, because it wouldn't).

....If a passenger makes an error because they are confused by the system they risk being charged an excess, being forced to buy a new (higher priced) ticket, charged a penalty fare, accused of fare evasion, issued an £80 'fine', have to make an expensive out of court settlement or be prosecuted.

If a member of staff makes a mistake it's the passenger's fault they have the wrong ticket.....

Actually many staff do use discretion when it is obviously an error, and sometimes even beyond that, this may not be your experience, but it does happen.

:?
So, for example, will the following be affected?

NR Day Rangers - Cheshire, Lancashire, South Pennine
TFGM/System One - Train & Tram Day Saver

There is no information to suggest that the Cheshire/Lancashire/South Pennine Day Rangers are effected. Daysavers will have an evening restriction, as noted in the post you quoted.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't know. I can think of plenty of staff who will take great delight in informing people who ask for evening returns or evening rangers that these products are no longer available, and their only option is one at at least double the old one.

Not so sure that TVMs have that capability though......might be the odd case of a screen getting smashed though

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't know. I can think of plenty of staff who will take great delight in informing people who ask for evening returns or evening rangers that these products are no longer available, and their only option is one at at least double the old one.

I can't speak for everyone, but I will be mentioning it before the day arrives to minimise the effect the change will have.

 

[yorksrob]

Well that really depends on looking at what people pay as an average, and I can tell you that the average price for a single rail journey in the UK is £5.

A meaningless statistic in this context.

Average cost by distance maybe, but then you should take into account local economic circumstances. Northern residents shouldn't be paying the same amount per mile as those from the South East if average wages aren't as high.

 

[Moonshot]

A meaningless statistic in this context.

Average cost by distance maybe, but then you should take into account local economic circumstances. Northern residents shouldn't be paying the same amount per mile as those from the South East if average wages aren't as high.

Which is what happens now and the reason Northern is subsidised in the first place. Of course subsidy equates to government spend, and there are all sorts of different government dpeartments under the same pressure to reduce costs.

Having said that, all the TOCS combined pay a premia of some £500 million to government coffers anyway, so this just increases that figure.

 

[yorksrob]

Having said that, all the TOCS combined pay a premia of some £500 million to government coffers anyway, so this just increases that figure.

And that in turn gets spent on infrastructure. But obviously a far greater proportion of that gets spent in the South East.

 

[Starmill]

I can't speak for everyone, but I will be mentioning it before the day arrives to minimise the effect the change will have.

So you increase your risk of receiving abuse then? Good intentions cannot wash out bad policies.

 

[Moonshot]

And that in turn gets spent on infrastructure. But obviously a far greater proportion of that gets spent in the South East.

Which is a different arguement altogether.

Been a lot of hot air on here tonight , but , rightly or wrongly, the days of less than £2 cheap returns in the evening here in Manchester on the Northern Network are coming to an end, and no amount of discussion on here is going to change that.

 

[GatwickDepress]

A meaningless statistic in this context.

Average cost by distance maybe, but then you should take into account local economic circumstances. Northern residents shouldn't be paying the same amount per mile as those from the South East if average wages aren't as high.

Does this mean I can have lower fares compared to the rest of the South East? In Hastings the average household income is nearly 14% lower than the national average as of 2010!

I know what you're saying though. It's my opinion that this fare exercise won't result in any positive changes.

A concentrated advertising campaign to put bums on seats, or introducing off-peak restrictions for specific overcrowded services, or limiting pass users on evening commuter services would do more than this, which I fear will lead to the railways worsening their public image in this...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So you increase your risk of receiving abuse then? Good intentions cannot wash out bad policies.

Pane of glass between me and the passengers, CCTV and a panic alarm wired to a separate control room, yeah, I'll risk it. Besides which, a couple of weeks notice is better than trying it on the day.

 

[Starmill]

Which is a different arguement altogether.

Been a lot of hot air on here tonight , but , rightly or wrongly, the days of less than £2 cheap returns in the evening here in Manchester on the Northern Network are coming to an end, and no amount of discussion on here is going to change that.

What's the point of this forum if it is not discussion?

 

[Moonshot]

What's the point of this forum if it is not discussion?

thats the whole point.....its a discussion forum. But what this forum doesnt do is set transport policy. Thats governments job.

 

[Starmill]

Pane of glass between me and the passengers, CCTV and a panic alarm wired to a separate control room, yeah, I'll risk it. Besides which, a couple of weeks notice is better than trying it on the day.

Guess it's alright for you then! Wonder if any guards will feel the same way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

thats the whole point.....its a discussion forum. But what this forum doesnt do is set transport policy. Thats governments job.

And this discussion forum has time and again established that they're naff at it. Here is yet more evidence. Case closed!

 

[yorksrob]

Does this mean I can have lower fares compared to the rest of the South East? In Hastings the average household income is nearly 14% lower than the national average as of 2010!

I know what you're saying though. It's my opinion that this fare exercise won't result in any positive changes.

A concentrated advertising campaign to put bums on seats, or introducing off-peak restrictions for specific overcrowded services, or limiting pass users on evening commuter services would do more than this, which I fear will lead to the railways worsening their public image in this...

To be fair, there are a couple of arguments for having some sort of cheaper fare to Hastings. To bring in tourism to an economically struggling area. On another note, as house prices are presumably lower than average, there's perhaps an argument for lower fares to help solve the housing shortage for Londoners.

That said, Hastings does have things such as group save and the Network Card which can help to bring down prices in some instances ehich a lot of similar towns in the North don't have.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This has been brewing since the McNulty drivel. Remember that consultation telling us how we have to have a consistant fares policy a couple of months ago? (No prizes for guessing what direction fares will be harmonised in. Clue - extortionate fares on TPE won't be changed).
This whole thing is a product of DaFT.

Co-signed by "Rail North".
It's Part 1 of getting Northern's subsidy under control.

 

[Moonshot]

Guess it's alright for you then! Wonder if any guards will feel the same way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And this discussion forum has time and again established that they're naff at it. Here is yet more evidence. Case closed!

Cased closed.....well considering that the case has never been open in the first place when you look at how the moderators do state that this is a discussion forum. It has absolutely no influence on government decisions whatsoever.

I must admit though, the ticketing section on here is excellent, well worth setting up this forum for in the first place.

 

[yorksrob]

Co-signed by "Rail North".
It's Part 1 of getting Northern's subsidy under control.

Co-signed with a proverbial shot gun to the back no doubt.

As I've mentioned on a couple of occasions, the best way to get the subsidy "under control" would be to not have all the long rural routes and short suburban lines hived off on their own without any main lines to cross subsidise them, but we have this sort of poppycock instead.

 

[Moonshot]

Co-signed with a proverbial shot gun to the back no doubt.

As I've mentioned on a couple of occasions, the best way to get the subsidy "under control" would be to not have all the long rural routes and short suburban lines hived off on their own without any main lines to cross subsidise them, but we have this sort of poppycock instead.

Or maybe just provide something else instead ( like a bus ) which is cheaper to operate and does exactly the same job of getting people from A to B

 

[muz379]

Cased closed.....well considering that the case has never been open in the first place when you look at how the moderators do state that this is a discussion forum. It has absolutely no influence on government decisions whatsoever.

I must admit though, the ticketing section on here is excellent, well worth setting up this forum for in the first place.

You always do that , state your opinon and then when people dont agree with it you point out that it is a discussion forum they are wasting their time and it has no bearing on the real world . If you feel that way dont log on in future . People can discuss things to their heats content that is what this website is here for . Nobody is under the illusion that what they say on here will have any bearing on the real world . But we are all equally entitled to our opinion on it .

 

[GatwickDepress]

To be fair, there are a couple of arguments for having some sort of cheaper fare to Hastings. To bring in tourism to an economically struggling area. On another note, as house prices are presumably lower than average, there's perhaps an argument for lower fares to help solve the housing shortage for Londoners.

That said, Hastings does have things such as group save and the Network Card which can help to bring down prices in some instances ehich a lot of similar towns in the North don't have.

True, and having three routes to/from London does help keep prices artificially low (or high in the case of HS1) from a competitive point of view.

 

[Moonshot]

You always do that , state your opinon and then when people dont agree with it you point out that it is a discussion forum they are wasting their time and it has no bearing on the real world . If you feel that way dont log on in future . People can discuss things to their heats content that is what this website is here for . Nobody is under the illusion that what they say on here will have any bearing on the real world . But we are all equally entitled to our opinion on it .

But none of us with our opinions on here have any influence on policy.

As you say everyone is entitled to their opinion......and nobody has to reply to my posts if they dont want to. In fact, if there was a " block " option on here, feel free to ignore me.

 

[yorksrob]

Or maybe just provide something else instead ( like a bus ) which is cheaper to operate and does exactly the same job of getting people from A to B

Well, it would be slower, you wouldn't be able to do work or even eat a sandwich on it, it would get caught up in the traffic and would have to stop every two minutes to let people on and off, so not really equivalent by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[muz379]

But none of us with our opinions on here have any influence on policy.

As you say everyone is entitled to their opinion......and nobody has to reply to my posts if they dont want to. In fact, if there was a " block " option on here, feel free to ignore me.

so why do you state your opinion then knowing it has no influence on policy ?

 

[Moonshot]

Well, it would be slower, you wouldn't be able to do work or even eat a sandwich on it, it would get caught up in the traffic and would have to stop every two minutes to let people on and off, so not really equivalent by any stretch of the imagination.

Which sounds like a Northern Rail service now !!

 

[yorksrob]

Which sounds like a Northern Rail service now !!

A lovely 156 to Whitby ?

No comparison

 

[Geeves]

Sorry but I for one will not miss telling people it is cheaper for them to buy a return (after 18:30 to locations inside Manchester) than it is to buy a single.

The looks of bemusement never stop! The passengers are normally confused and tell you they don't want to come back, yes we know but its cheaper... Well not for much longer.

Its quite clearly not sustainable in the current climate to have some one paying £2.10 to travel up to 30 miles and £2.50 you can travel all night!

 

[Moonshot]

A lovely 156 to Whitby ?

No comparison

I dont get as far as Whitby......but I do like taking a shower on a 156 when it rains !!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry but I for one will not miss telling people it is cheaper for them to buy a return (after 18:30 to locations inside Manchester) than it is to buy a single.

The looks of bemusement never stop! The passengers are normally confused and tell you they don't want to come back, yes we know but its cheaper... Well not for much longer.

Its quite clearly not sustainable in the current climate to have some one paying £2.10 to travel up to 30 miles and £2.50 you can travel all night!

I ll still be able to sell a duo in that fashion outside of Manchester though !! try explaining that one !!

 

[yorksrob]

I dont get as far as Whitby......but I do like taking a shower on a 156 when it rains !!

But it's lovely to have a bit of ventilation in the summer though isn't it.