Scotland votes no to Independence

[Whistler40145]

I can't get my head around why the SNP has gained more members after the NO vote than before.

 

[Yew]

I disagree. Regional devolution would result in further fragmentation, extra cost, and mainly add another level of interfering bureaucracy designed to create jobs for second-rate hacks.
We do need to work out first what is the problem we are trying to address. IMHO, the issue is that the Westminster Parliament has become too detached from the country, and its members do not understand the job they are there to do. For me, any reform must return MPs to represent their constituency, not their party. Just because South Basset returns a Liberal MP does not mean everyone there supports the Liberals on all issues. It could even be that they support the Liberals on no issues, but rejected the rabid Marxist offered by Labour and the vapid aesthete put forward by the Tories. So this MP must be allowed to vote according to his constituents preferences. First, abolish Whips and "Party Discipline", and make every vote a free vote. Secondly, publish the voting record of all MPs in all votes, to enable the constituents to check that their representative is actually representing them. Thirdly, have a "recall" system, to allow constituents to remove MPs who are not representing them.
That should improve representation. Next, abolish any idea of "Party" within all elected bodies. After all, the "Prime Minister" is meant to be the MP who can command the most support in the House, not necessarily the leader of the largest party. So get the MPs to select the PM. She can then select a cabinet from anyone - Adonis for Transport, Hague for Foreign Office etc. The best result of this would be to abolish "Party Rebels", those naughty children who make a living in the House out of stirring up trouble for troubles sake (Bill cash, for instance).
Finally, address the quality of MPs. Treble (quadruple?) their pay, remove their allowances, and stop them having any other paid employment while MPs. Make it a qualification that they must have been ten years out of full-time education, and must not have worked in any capacity, paid or unpaid, for a political or lobbying organisation for ten years.
I have probably left some things out, but I bet this would improve the quality of Government and MPs no end.

You, sir, have my complete support!

 

[Trog]

I disagree. Regional devolution would result in further fragmentation, extra cost, and mainly add another level of interfering bureaucracy designed to create jobs for second-rate hacks.
We do need to work out first what is the problem we are trying to address. IMHO, the issue is that the Westminster Parliament has become too detached from the country, and its members do not understand the job they are there to do. For me, any reform must return MPs to represent their constituency, not their party. Just because South Basset returns a Liberal MP does not mean everyone there supports the Liberals on all issues. It could even be that they support the Liberals on no issues, but rejected the rabid Marxist offered by Labour and the vapid aesthete put forward by the Tories. So this MP must be allowed to vote according to his constituents preferences. First, abolish Whips and "Party Discipline", and make every vote a free vote. Secondly, publish the voting record of all MPs in all votes, to enable the constituents to check that their representative is actually representing them. Thirdly, have a "recall" system, to allow constituents to remove MPs who are not representing them.
That should improve representation. Next, abolish any idea of "Party" within all elected bodies. After all, the "Prime Minister" is meant to be the MP who can command the most support in the House, not necessarily the leader of the largest party. So get the MPs to select the PM. She can then select a cabinet from anyone - Adonis for Transport, Hague for Foreign Office etc. The best result of this would be to abolish "Party Rebels", those naughty children who make a living in the House out of stirring up trouble for troubles sake (Bill cash, for instance).
Finally, address the quality of MPs. Treble (quadruple?) their pay, remove their allowances, and stop them having any other paid employment while MPs. Make it a qualification that they must have been ten years out of full-time education, and must not have worked in any capacity, paid or unpaid, for a political or lobbying organisation for ten years.
I have probably left some things out, but I bet this would improve the quality of Government and MPs no end.

How about banning members of the legal profession from being am MP, as there is a conflict of interest in making laws and then making a living from them. Not sure about recall, either I fear this would become a way for pressure groups to lean on MP's who did not tow the line. General elections are not that far apart anyway, so any MP who annoys his electorate will have to face the music sooner or later anyway. A little delay would also mean it would be more likely that you could see if he was right or not, than a recall in the heat of the moment.

 

[St Rollox]

I can't get my head around why the SNP has gained more members after the NO vote than before.

Seems a lot of the new members are from the Labour heartlands.
Anything that helps finish off New Labour in Scotland can only be a good thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Were you up for Portillo" was one of the defining moments of Labour's Landslide General Election victory in 1997.

In the early hours of Friday the Scottish Referendum in my view produced an early result of the same significance albeit on a much reduced scale numerically.

When Eilean Siar emerged from the Gaelic Gobbledygook as a No vote I suspected the game was up for the Yes Camp.

It was heartening to see all the former Conservative heartlands (Borders, Stirling, Perth and Kinross , Angus , Aberdeenshire, Moray, Renfrewshire, Argyll and Bute and of course Edinburgh return to the fold if only vicariously.

The next day I was talking to youngsters who were unaware the Conservatives were once a force in Scotland outwith the urban sprawl. They still control a few Councils , have MSP's and Euro members.

Is there any way back to their former glory ?

Maybe the Tartan Tories could sign up Murphy, Reid and Brown since they did all the work for Scottish Unionism and the local Tory leader (what's her name) was almost invisible.

 

[Butts]

Maybe the Tartan Tories could sign up Murphy, Reid and Brown since they did all the work for Scottish Unionism and the local Tory leader (what's her name) was almost invisible.

I'm not sure where you live, but she wasn't invisible in Scotland. There were a lot of televised debates up here that were not shown in the rest of the UK. You could probably make the same comment about Lamont the Scottish Labour Leader. All the focus seemed to be on Salmond and Sturgeon south of the border.

Ruth Davidson was not alone in being marginalised.

From my perspective the greatest angle was The Scottish Green Party (separate from England and Wales) not winning an MEP in the preceding Euro Elections. As UKIP unexpectedly achieved this feat the SNP were unable to roll out their lack of presence as a major difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

The whole focus of the SNP campaign seemed to centre around focusing on a Conservative Administration in Westminster being the catalyst to lead to a vote for Independence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't get my head around why the SNP has gained more members after the NO vote than before.

Disaffected participants in the Vote who failed to see their ambition realised at the ballot box.

Just remember 28 out of 32 Regions/Cities voted NO

 

[St Rollox]

Wonder if the Tartan Unionists parties will have a pact next year to try and save their seats from the disaffected.

 

[Monty]

Don't assume it's going to go all one way, you never know the SNP may actually loose seats in the up coming election. It will also be interesting to watch what happens to the party after Salmond steps down in the next few months, the party nearly imploded last time he decided to hand the reigns over to someone else.

 

[St Rollox]

With a bit of luck the Tories might oust Jim Murphy.

 

[Emyr]

Just remember 28 out of 32 Regions/Cities voted NO

That metric means nothing.

 

[St Rollox]

I can't get my head around why the SNP has gained more members after the NO vote than before.

Believe the membership is now 72,000 and counting.

 

[Butts]

Believe the membership is now 72,000 and counting.

That won't translate into many seats at Westminster in next years General Election

 

[NotATrainspott]

That won't translate into many seats at Westminster in next years General Election

YouGov predict that the SNP could win 26 seats in 2015 (up from 6). A lot will depend upon just how tactical voters in Scotland are going to be. If the primary concern is the destruction of the Labour party, then even some Tories may vote SNP in order to make a possible Labour minority or coalition government less stable. On the other hand, if Tory voters feel that the Labour party are the least-bad option they may tactically vote for them to keep the SNP out.

 

[Johnuk123]

YouGov predict that the SNP could win 26 seats in 2015 (up from 6). A lot will depend upon just how tactical voters in Scotland are going to be. If the primary concern is the destruction of the Labour party, then even some Tories may vote SNP in order to make a possible Labour minority or coalition government less stable. On the other hand, if Tory voters feel that the Labour party are the least-bad option they may tactically vote for them to keep the SNP out.

I think labour will struggle to get into double figures in Scotland which will make a huge difference in the general election.

 

[Butts]

YouGov predict that the SNP could win 26 seats in 2015 (up from 6). A lot will depend upon just how tactical voters in Scotland are going to be. If the primary concern is the destruction of the Labour party, then even some Tories may vote SNP in order to make a possible Labour minority or coalition government less stable. On the other hand, if Tory voters feel that the Labour party are the least-bad option they may tactically vote for them to keep the SNP out.

In the 2010 General Election, which was a year after Scottish Parliamentary Elections, the SNP barely moved at all. People with longer memories will recollect them almost being wiped in 1979 after the 1978 referendum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think labour will struggle to get into double figures in Scotland which will make a huge difference in the general election.

That's about as likely as UKIP achieving the same in a UK Election.

 

[NotATrainspott]

In the 2010 General Election, which was a year after Scottish Parliamentary Elections, the SNP barely moved at all. People with longer memories will recollect them almost being wiped in 1979 after the 1978 referendum.

Yes, but politics has moved on quite a bit in five years. One of the main reasons that people haven't voted SNP in general elections is that they are not confident enough that they would not just be spoiling the Labour vote and helping the Tories win instead. In the 2015 election, since so many people want to vote SNP on their own merit - they're on approximately 40% of the vote against Labour at 30% - that the tables have turned and it's quite possible that many Labour voters will go SNP to ensure that the Tories can't get in either even if they do not want independence. When an entire nation has to vote tactically it does make a complete mockery of the FPTP system and that's one of the reasons that people voted Yes: the Holyrood system of proportional representation actually seemed to work, and far better so than what we're stuck with at Westminster.

Also, the most recent Scottish Parliament election was in 2011 and the complete failure of the three UK parties was what made the SNP so successful. In all likelihood the three of them are going to bumble along in exactly the same way, allowing the SNP to win once again.

 

[dcsprior]

Maybe the Tartan Tories could sign up Murphy, Reid and Brown since they did all the work for Scottish Unionism and the local Tory leader (what's her name) was almost invisible.

Really? I thought Ruth Davidson got a lot of coverage - probably because she (even from my Yes-voting, non-Tory perspective) performed very well

In fact many of the politicians that're generally seen to have had "a very good referendum" are those who whilst big names, aren't the very biggest - for instance I'd say that Davidson, Sturgeon and Harvie outshone Salmond, Darling and Lamont.

If you want a better example of a party leader who was invisible, may I suggest Wullie Rennie?

 

[St Rollox]

Butts,

Think your a wee bit confused with your dates.

The last Scottish election was in 2011 a year after the 2010 UK general election.
Labour were left with 15 FPTP seats.

The referendum was held in March 1979.
The UK general election was held weeks later.

 

[reb0118]

.........may I suggest Wullie Rennie?

Whae?

 

[ExRes]

I doubt there will be any comment from those with the loudest of voices in the Yes campaign, but I don't think todays news of oil prices should go without mention

Brent Crude was $115 per barrel in June and had fallen to $87 yesterday, the expectation is that it will probably fall further to $77, with no other income that Salmond was prepared to talk about how would an independent Scottish economy have survived with this sort of reduction in tax income ?

 

[St Rollox]

Will be interesting next May when the Better Together vote splits 3/4/5 ways.
Maybe the unionists should think about a pact to save some of their MPs having to join a foodbank.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you want a better example of a party leader who was invisible, may I suggest Wullie Rennie?

Is this person any relation to "Oor Wullie" of D. C. Thomson fame....

 

[Butts]

I doubt there will be any comment from those with the loudest of voices in the Yes campaign, but I don't think todays news of oil prices should go without mention

Brent Crude was $115 per barrel in June and had fallen to $87 yesterday, the expectation is that it will probably fall further to $77, with no other income that Salmond was prepared to talk about how would an independent Scottish economy have survived with this sort of reduction in tax income ?

Contrary to popular belief the whole Scottish Economy is/would not be dependent on Oil alone
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is this person any relation to "Oor Wullie" of D. C. Thomson fame....

No, he is not the one of "the bucket".....more of a Muppet

 

[chorleyjeff]

Contrary to popular belief the whole Scottish Economy is/would not be dependent on Oil alone
--

Clearly not. But the post independence Shangri La was predicated on very very substantial oil income.

 

[St Rollox]

Oil won't mean much to the various Labour and LibDem MPs who find themselves out the door next May.

 

[ExRes]

Contrary to popular belief the whole Scottish Economy is/would not be dependent on Oil alone

I seem to remember that the question of the Scottish economy post independence was kept as low profile as possible during the campaign, if oil revenue income wasn't the major plank of the economic plan then what on earth was ? haggis exports to Japan ? kilts to Taiwan ? first edition Burns poems to North Korea ?

 

[Butts]

I seem to remember that the question of the Scottish economy post independence was kept as low profile as possible during the campaign, if oil revenue income wasn't the major plank of the economic plan then what on earth was ? haggis exports to Japan ? kilts to Taiwan ? first edition Burns poems to North Korea ?

Food and Beverages (including no doubt haggis) but largely Glenfiddich et al I would imagine represents exports in the Billions.

 

[ExRes]

Food and Beverages (including no doubt haggis) but largely Glenfiddich et al I would imagine represents exports in the Billions.

Ah yes, but you'd have had to have kept your fingers crossed on that one

If Scotland had become independent they would have lost the tariff-free export arrangement for export of Scotch Whiskey to members of the EU, around 40%-50% of total exports, which would have had to have been renegotiated by Scotland if it had been accepted as a member state

How long do you think that lot would have taken ?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Ah yes, but you'd have had to have kept your fingers crossed on that one

If Scotland had become independent they would have lost the tariff-free export arrangement for export of Scotch Whiskey to members of the EU, around 40%-50% of total exports, which would have had to have been renegotiated by Scotland if it had been accepted as a member state

How long do you think that lot would have taken ?

So Scotland would fall below Switzerland on the scale of European integration, without the consent of its population? No one was ever seriously suggesting that Scotland wouldn't be in the EEA.

 

[ExRes]

So Scotland would fall below Switzerland on the scale of European integration, without the consent of its population? No one was ever seriously suggesting that Scotland wouldn't be in the EEA.

I think you'll find you have to apply for EEA membership, or is Scotland such a special case that it would, if the situation had arisen, be granted immediate membership ?

 

[DownSouth]

I seem to remember that the question of the Scottish economy post independence was kept as low profile as possible during the campaign, if oil revenue income wasn't the major plank of the economic plan then what on earth was ? haggis exports to Japan ? kilts to Taiwan ? first edition Burns poems to North Korea ?

Irn-Bru is certainly available in small quantities some supermarkets here in Australia, usually in a small segment grouped with various other international drinks and snacks not available here in huge volumes rather than in the normal soft drink aisle alongside the ranges from Coca-Cola, PepsiCo and their cheaper competitors.

I think the market for Irn-Bru here is mostly British expats, it's certainly not well-loved here and generally thought of as a joke or something you would drink only as punishment for losing a trivial bet.

I'm pretty sure it's imported from Scotland, but with the way the beer market is going (lots of Euro beers, and most infamously Corona, are made locally under license by breweries in Australia and New Zealand) there's a fair chance that Irn-Bru is made under license by some local company. I'll have a look at the cans to find out for sure next time I see them.

South Australia stands alongside Scotland as one of the few places in the world where Coca-Cola is outsold by another drink, and the only place in the world where that Coke-beating drink is a milk drink.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you'll find you have to apply for EEA membership, or is Scotland such a special case that it would, if the situation had arisen, be granted immediate membership ?

Surely just a case where an application for membership would be granted almost immediately. All the big economic powerhouses of Europe would see it in their best interests to have tariff-free access to the markets of a net importer like Scotland.

Scotland's accession to the WTO would be a lot more protracted though, like EU membership it would be very convenient for certain countries (the UK, Spain, Greece etc) to use as a 'big stick.'