Bournemouth/Poole to the West (Was 'Dorchester stations')

[fairysdad]

A thought occurred to me while on the Weymouth - Gloucester line earlier on today.

I remember somebody saying that it was odd that the two Dorchester stations had names as they do, particularly Dorchester South which isn't that much more South than Dorchester West is, and why have 'South' and 'West' as station names.

The thought that occurred to me was: Were they named like this because Dorchester West was served by the Great Western Railway, and Dorchester South by the Southern Railway? (Wiki tells me that Dorchester South received its suffix in 1949; no such note is made for West so I assume it always had its name)

 

[30907]

South is definitely East of West, which is slightly North of South.

Seriously, both names are post nationalisation.

 

[Greenback]

That doesn't preclude the names being used to refer to the Western Region and the Southern Region.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

South is definitely East of West, which is slightly North of South.

An answer worthy of "Sir Humphrey"...

 

[HowardGWR]

The real issue here instead of the trivial one is the need for a chord between West and South across a car park..

 

[30907]

That doesn't preclude the names being used to refer to the Western Region and the Southern Region.

Sorry, my serious point was meant to be agreeing with that!
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The real issue here instead of the trivial one is the need for a chord between West and South across a car park..

Why? To close West? To improve connections?

 

[HowardGWR]

Why? To close West? To improve connections?

No not close West. No, to enable a through Plymouth to Southampton / Brighton via Bournemouth service (with instatement, finally, of Yeovil Jcn southern chord). Bournemouth / Poole / Christchurch is the second biggest conurbation in the South West.

Also good for Bournemouth to Bath / Bristol service.

 

[LateThanNever]

No not close West. No, to enable a through Plymouth to Southampton / Brighton via Bournemouth service (with instatement, finally, of Yeovil Jcn southern chord). Bournemouth / Poole / Christchurch is the second biggest conurbation in the South West.

Also good for Bournemouth to Bath / Bristol service.

Can only say I unequivocally support your suggestion. Driving along the South Coast is a nightmare!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The real issue here instead of the trivial one is the need for a chord between West and South across a car park..

No chance of having a chord through there, the area to the north of the station has been developed (doesn't show on Google Earth but does on Google Streetview). Any chord would have to start to the east of the town, going west/north west of the town

 

[HowardGWR]

No chance of having a chord through there, the area to the north of the station has been developed (doesn't show on Google Earth but does on Google Streetview). Any chord would have to start to the east of the town, going west/north west of the town

My line would go through the old police station.

 

[Greenback]

Sorry, my serious point was meant to be agreeing with that!

Oops, sorry, my mistake!

My line would go through the old police station.

I can see the benefit of a chord at both Dorchester and Yeovil, but would it be financially viable given the costs?

 

[HowardGWR]

I can see the benefit of a chord at both Dorchester and Yeovil, but would it be financially viable given the costs?

I think as much as any other railway line, but more a strategic decision in an urban area where the costs would be naturally higher. Another possibility is a new station near the Football Ground / Tesco O.O.T. shopping area. That would be a genuinely 'South' station. There, trains could reverse and the car parks being constructed there for P and R could also serve the new station. The station would be useful for locals too. The alternative is to go down to Weymouth and reverse and that would be probably be the best CBR. It would add a good half hour to the suggested Bournemouth / Bristol and Plymouth services though. Other than that, just a reversing siding south of Dorchester South could do it.

But the chord at Yeovil really is a no-brainer. Unfortunately the local county councils are dodos and have only just included the idea as a suggestion in their transport planning.

 

[fairysdad]

I think as much as any other railway line, but more a strategic decision in an urban area where the costs would be naturally higher. Another possibility is a new station near the Football Ground / Tesco O.O.T. shopping area. That would be a genuinely 'South' station. There, trains could reverse and the car parks being constructed there for P and R could also serve the new station. The station would be useful for locals too. The alternative is to go down to Weymouth and reverse and that would be probably be the best CBR. It would add a good half hour to the suggested Bournemouth / Bristol and Plymouth services though. Other than that, just a reversing siding south of Dorchester South could do it.

A 'Money-No-Object-Pie-In-Sky' idea I had a while ago is to put a station on the junction of the two lines to replace both existing stations, both dual-track (sideline: another thing that's often confused me there is the fact that the GWR line branches off the double-track SR line as a single, then immediately returns to double track for the station). The SR line would be platformed the 'wrong' way so that both the SR track and the GWR track to Weymouth would share an island platform (plats 2 and 3) so that passengers from Dorchester who want to go to Weymouth won't have to work out which platform they need when they arrive at the station, while the outside platforms would be Platform 1 for Bristol (& the west if the Yeovil chord is built!) and Platform 4 for Bournemouth and London etc..

Thinking about it though, your idea of a station slightly further south would make more sense, as it's more realistic as there isn't a road and a cemetery in the way, and it'd, again, have a single platform for Weymouth-bound trains and a shared one for Bristol- and London-bound ones. Make it an island platform, and people changing from SWT to FGW wouldn't have to clamber over a footbridge! (If not having to walk through the town wasn't good enough )

 

[Taunton]

No not close West. No, to enable a through Plymouth to Southampton / Brighton via Bournemouth service (with instatement, finally, of Yeovil Jcn southern chord). Bournemouth / Poole / Christchurch is the second biggest conurbation in the South West.

Also good for Bournemouth to Bath / Bristol service.

There's a perfectly adequate and in fact shorter Plymouth to Southampton/Brighton route already, via Salisbury, which has never generated much through traffic to warrant through trains.

Bournemouth to Bristol via Dorchester, Yeovil and Trowbridge is a long way round worthy of Castleman's Corkscrew. The old S&D in the days before road traffic dominance had trains on this axis by a notably shorter route which ran empty for nine months of the year.

Yeovil Junction station may have a name of a large town but is in actual fact in the middle of farmland miles away from its namesake (Pen Mill is just about the furthest east building in the town as well).

 

[MarkyT]

Gentlemen, I bring you the Dorchester Southern Bypass Loop:

http://www.townend.me/files/dorchester.pdf

 

[yorksrob]

There's a perfectly adequate and in fact shorter Plymouth to Southampton/Brighton route already, via Salisbury, which has never generated much through traffic to warrant through trains.

Bournemouth to Bristol via Dorchester, Yeovil and Trowbridge is a long way round worthy of Castleman's Corkscrew. The old S&D in the days before road traffic dominance had trains on this axis by a notably shorter route which ran empty for nine months of the year.

Yeovil Junction station may have a name of a large town but is in actual fact in the middle of farmland miles away from its namesake (Pen Mill is just about the furthest east building in the town as well).

Wasn't there a long standing through train from Brighton to Plymouth (which used to run via Okehampton) ? There must have been enough passengers to justify a through train at one time or else it wouldn't have existed.

 

[Taunton]

Wasn't there a long standing through train from Brighton to Plymouth (which used to run via Okehampton) ? There must have been enough passengers to justify a through train at one time or else it wouldn't have existed.

Yes there was. Just one a day. By an existing route. Which didn't last. Not a justification for a curve ay Yeovil and ripping up half the town at Dorchester.

Furthermore its principal traffic flow was Naval personnel travelling between Portsmouth and Plymouth, a traffic which has fallen right away.

 

[yorksrob]

There's a perfectly adequate and in fact shorter Plymouth to Southampton/Brighton route already, via Salisbury, which has never generated much through traffic to warrant through trains.

Bournemouth to Bristol via Dorchester, Yeovil and Trowbridge is a long way round worthy of Castleman's Corkscrew. The old S&D in the days before road traffic dominance had trains on this axis by a notably shorter route which ran empty for nine months of the year.

Yeovil Junction station may have a name of a large town but is in actual fact in the middle of farmland miles away from its namesake (Pen Mill is just about the furthest east building in the town as well).

Yes there was. Just one a day. By an existing route. Which didn't last. Not a justification for a curve ay Yeovil and ripping up half the town at Dorchester.

Furthermore its principal traffic flow was Naval personnel travelling between Portsmouth and Plymouth, a traffic which has fallen right away.

Navel personnel notwithstanding, I wonder whether such a service might be easier to justify today with a modern long distance DMU.

 

[Hornet]

I remember, and have been on an up train, having to reverse into the up platform at Dorchester South (a la Killarney ex Tralee), before the up platform was built on the curve. The main Station buildings were on the, now long gone, up platform.

 

[HowardGWR]

Gentlemen, I bring you the Dorchester Southern Bypass Loop:

http://www.townend.me/files/dorchester.pdf

Unfortunately it goes through the northern border of the AONB. Mind that didn't stop them building the disgraceful Weymouth Relief Road (which does not relieve it) so maybe it's a goer. Well done Mark.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What about a chord to the North with a new station to the east before the chord splits off (on the outskirts of the town), the new station serving both routes?

 

[HowardGWR]

What about a chord to the North with a new station to the east before the chord splits off (on the outskirts of the town), the new station serving both routes?

You really are into landscape protection difficulties there (Frome valley) and that's aside from the unsuitability of a location for a station there. Dorchester relies on tourism and visitors and workers from Weymouth.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No not close West. No, to enable a through Plymouth to Southampton / Brighton via Bournemouth service (with instatement, finally, of Yeovil Jcn southern chord). Bournemouth / Poole / Christchurch is the second biggest conurbation in the South West.

Also good for Bournemouth to Bath / Bristol service.

I can see the benefits of an Exeter-Bournemouth service. I have no personal knowledge of the local area, but Google maps appears to show that Yeovil Junction station is basically in the middle of nowhere (and not actually particularly close to Yeovil). That's unlike Yeovil Pen Mill, which, while not being particularly central, is at least on the edge of the town.

Would that not be a potential disincentive to providing a loop that could cause more trains to call at Yeovil Junction? Would that be an additional issue that might need to be solved somehow with your proposal, given the importance of Yeovil as one of the largest population centres in the area?

 

[LateThanNever]

I can see the benefits of an Exeter-Bournemouth service. I have no personal knowledge of the local area, but Google maps appears to show that Yeovil Junction station is basically in the middle of nowhere (and not actually particularly close to Yeovil). That's unlike Yeovil Pen Mill, which, while not being particularly central, is at least on the edge of the town.

Would that not be a potential disincentive to providing a loop that could cause more trains to call at Yeovil Junction? Would that be an additional issue that might need to be solved somehow with your proposal, given the importance of Yeovil as one of the largest population centres in the area?

Think of Yeovil Junction as what would now be deemed Yeovil Parkway - just unfortunate that it's down a country lane!

Bournemouth/Poole is the second population centre (after Bristol) in the South West but is a nightmare to get to by rail - not great by road either - from anywhere to/from the West of it. The South Western curve ex Yeovil Jncn, which exists - although never built originally, is ripe for instatement owing to changing travel and of course other closed (rail) connections.

 

[drinnicksiding]

No not close West. No, to enable a through Plymouth to Southampton / Brighton via Bournemouth service (with instatement, finally, of Yeovil Jcn southern chord). Bournemouth / Poole / Christchurch is the second biggest conurbation in the South West.

Also good for Bournemouth to Bath / Bristol service.

Agreed. There is a good opportunity here as the road connections are poor too. There is no easy way from the Westcountry to the Solent other than on the back of a crow.

There's a perfectly adequate and in fact shorter Plymouth to Southampton/Brighton route already, via Salisbury, which has never generated much through traffic to warrant through trains.

Quicker how? This involves changing also. The fact is, a direct route would stimulate demand for long distance travellers, allowing the Somerset-Dorset service to increase as a by-product and thus increase patronage. Trains to Bristol from Bournemouth would also be beneficial. There needs to be best-fit service or mixture of services.

Gentlemen, I bring you the Dorchester Southern Bypass Loop:

http://www.townend.me/files/dorchester.pdf

Getting a service (to gauge demand) needs to be secured first I think. My thoughts would be:
Re the Yeovil Jcn Chord, would the journey be so less attractive (to the extent the capital outlay on the chord is easily recoverable) to have a reversal at Yeovil Pen Mill (assuming the journey is permitted). It would add 20 minutes but serve Yeovil (40,000 pop) properly.
Re the Dorchester debate, a bypass would be controversial and costly. I favour the idea of a siding to the south the junction to reverse at, then continue on the existing lines (cheaper and more realistic) - whilst I know of the need for Westcountry-Solent connections, I don't know Dorchester well enough to know whether a new station (further South of the current two) would work

 

[HowardGWR]

There is a half hourly bus service between the junction, the town and Pen Mill during 'daylight' hours (0700 -2000). Apart from that I usually notice taxis waiting when I go through there. The bus also fits in a 'round the streets' service in between, so I expect some pax can just stay on it if they are destined for one of those areas.

It's like the push pull train still existed. Had it not been closed, I doubt that Yeovil Town, bang in the centre, and the direct line to Taunton would now be closed, as it also would serve growing commuter villages, now towns, like Martock and Langport. I think a local service from Taunton to Weymouth would sit alongside a fast(er) service from Weymouth to Bristol, plus these east- west services to Bournemouth and south coast, mentioned above. Yeovil rail joinings need our colleague @MarkyT to come up with his crayon!

By the way, on the last, the contention there was little market for the Bournemouth route service is not borne out by the facts. It's just that the market is served only by road now, or by long rail deviation, there being no alternative.

 

[MarkyT]

Yeovil rail joinings need our colleague @MarkyT to come up with his crayon!

We discussed Yeovil here I recall:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1810838&postcount=30

Electronic crayons are being marshalled for the task!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Electronic crayons are being marshalled for the task!

http://www.townend.me/files/yeovil2.pdf

First quick draft of Yeovil idea. I'll add some further labels and details later. Would add just over 3 miles in total to a Waterloo - Exeter journey or a Dorchester - Exeter Journey compared with direct via Yeovil Junction (including a new curve in the case of Dorchester). With additional allowance for reversing, that should cost no more than about 10 minutes journey time assuming Yeovil Junction stop also avoided so approach and departure in either direction can remain at good speed. New station entrance approx. 250m from main bus station in town centre, with a fairly level walk between. Similar in-out and reverse concept could apply for Dorchester - Exeter using Penn Mill station, with or without also diverting the Waterloo trains.

 

[PhilipF]

Three years ago we needed to journey from Paignton to Poole. Perfect trip, via Taunton to Castle Cary, down to Dorchester, quick walk across to south station, then on again. Not the slightest problem at all. Might I agree, be a little different in the reverse direction, not such a good service on the HoWL. But in that case I'd think of changing at Weymouth, and have a little refreshment while waiting for a train to carry us up to Castle Cary.

Matter of interest; last week we happened to be sat at Dorchester West, and got in conversation with a lady who was on her way to Weston-Super-Mare. We were traveling on the 17.43 so not very early in the day.

The intention of this lady was to change at Castle Cary, then catch her final train up to Weston at Taunton. When I suggested it might be better if she carried on our train up to Bristol, and on to Weston that way. I gather she had done this trip via Taunton previously and found it quicker. Hope she did take our advice. Not sure I'd fancy hanging around Castle Cary for a connection:roll:

 

[HowardGWR]

Three years ago we needed to journey from Paignton to Poole. Perfect trip, via Taunton to Castle Cary, down to Dorchester, quick walk across to south station, then on again. Not the slightest problem at all. Might I agree, be a little different in the reverse direction, not such a good service on the HoWL. But in that case I'd think of changing at Weymouth, and have a little refreshment while waiting for a train to carry us up to Castle Cary.

Matter of interest; last week we happened to be sat at Dorchester West, and got in conversation with a lady who was on her way to Weston-Super-Mare. We were traveling on the 17.43 so not very early in the day.

The intention of this lady was to change at Castle Cary, then catch her final train up to Weston at Taunton. When I suggested it might be better if she carried on our train up to Bristol, and on to Weston that way. I gather she had done this trip via Taunton previously and found it quicker. Hope she did take our advice. Not sure I'd fancy hanging around Castle Cary for a connection:roll:

That's interesting and the Transport Direct site, when it existed, used to advise the walk across the market car park as a recommended journey. Alright if you (like me) are a John Betjeman type, have all day, and want to experience the delights of the west country towns.

I hope Mark (thanks by the way) has another think about Yeovil and I will come back on this.

I wonder if Mods could consider this as Bournemouth Western Links - or some such title, as then we could cover all the issues that @PhilipF and others are mentioning. I know that Bournemouth booking clerks are sending people via Upwey and Castle Cary westwards to Plymouth as I actually encountered several when doing station counts at Upwey (!!!!). Not an interchange with much in the way of facilities (don't enquire further).

Of course, the ORR picks up none of this sort of nonsense.

 

[drinnicksiding]

First quick draft of Yeovil idea. I'll add some further labels and details later. Would add just over 3 miles in total to a Waterloo - Exeter journey or a Dorchester - Exeter Journey compared with direct via Yeovil Junction (including a new curve in the case of Dorchester). With additional allowance for reversing, that should cost no more than about 10 minutes journey time assuming Yeovil Junction stop also avoided so approach and departure in either direction can remain at good speed. New station entrance approx. 250m from main bus station in town centre, with a fairly level walk between. Similar in-out and reverse concept could apply for Dorchester - Exeter using Penn Mill station, with or without also diverting the Waterloo trains.

The sidings and platform layout could surely facilitate a reversal at Pen Mill for much lower cost and only a little change to the track layout. Would having a station that much closer to the old site increase demand to extent the capex is worth the bother? Don't know the frustrations of Yeoviltonians well enough