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Velaro UK construction progress (New Eurostar rolling stock)

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Can you imagine the public, political and media reaction if the border controls were removed and the hordes who amass at Calais, were just able to walk through?
There's also a fear that those hordes might swell dramatically if the front door was left wide open.
 
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Olaf

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Rather than removing controls, additional measures and systems have both been introduced and are yet to go live. There is also a move against the details of the Shengen agreement within the EU; the UK is not the only nation having difficulties with the uncontrolled flow of migrants. Lastly, there growing threats to the security of the UK, so traveller should expect further measures to be introduced.

Regarding the NoL sets; I believe the book value of these sets was written-off a few years ago based on them having lost their raison d'être. These sets, and the other class 373s are now antiquated technology, and are excessively complex for either new lines or for re-fitting for current tends in European HS services.
 

Noddy

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Rather than removing controls, additional measures and systems have both been introduced and are yet to go live. There is also a move against the details of the Shengen agreement within the EU; the UK is not the only nation having difficulties with the uncontrolled flow of migrants. Lastly, there growing threats to the security of the UK, so traveller should expect further measures to be

Schengen isn't just EU members though. Switzerland, Norway and Iceland (another island nation) are members too. And some of the eastern EU states are not members (yet).

I know people have said its all been discussed before (sorry I am new) but I completly fail to see how there cannot be the demand. Both Greater Manchester and Greater Birmingham have multi-million populations, with multiple daily flights to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam et al. With the new stations being built it should be relatively easy to construct an international platform, which can be opened and closed easily. There are already border guards at the local airports, which are going to be connected to HS2! Hopefully the Greater Manchester and Greater Birmingham regional mayors get their act together and lobby seriously for the connection.
 
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Kite159

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I spotted an unknown 374 down in the tunnel sidings (the part which is next to the main-line to Dover) near Folkstone this afternoon, it looked quite smart.
 

user15681

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I spotted an unknown 374 down in the tunnel sidings (the part which is next to the main-line to Dover) near Folkstone this afternoon, it looked quite smart.

That'll be 4003/04 down at Dollands Moor, been doing testing on HS1 overnight and should have done/should do testing in the tunnel too.
 

507 001

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Does anybody else find it strange that they are retiring perfectly serviceable 20 year old trains?
I realise they are in dire need of internal refurbishment but that's not exactly difficult is it?
 

AM9

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Does anybody else find it strange that they are retiring perfectly serviceable 20 year old trains?
I realise they are in dire need of internal refurbishment but that's not exactly difficult is it?

Not at all. If they have no revenue earning service deployment then they are a dead loss in storage cost. 400 metre long trains cannot just be left behind the shed, they take up valuable track space. You could call it a 'wrong kind of train' problem!
 

Manchester77

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Plus they've been used pretty intensively over the last 20 years - regular high speed running surely takes its toll
 

33Hz

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People need to accept that the only way we'd see Brum/Manchester/wherever getting through trains to Paris would be if no passport checks or luggage screening was required and so the train was essentially a Birmingham - London train that happens to continue to Paris. The chances of that happening though...

Eurostar seems to manage this between Belgium and Lille and a satisfactory arrangement seems to have been found with dedicated coaches for those pax.

Spain and Russia seem to manage with on platform x ray machines for domestic HS trains so I can't see why we don't except dogma.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Plus they've been used pretty intensively over the last 20 years - regular high speed running surely takes its toll

The NoL sets satat around for 6 years, had a leisurely 110 mph run to Leeds and back for 5 years, sat around for another 2 then spent the last 7 back and forth from Paris to Lille and Calais. They must be the most lightly used HS trains in Europe.

They are a newer generation of technology than the Atlantique sets which ply their trade on the Brittany and Bordeaux lines and would be ideal for offering connections there, not least other UK destinations. I'd still look at making short sets with a pair splitting for ECML/WCML/GWML destinations.
 

po8crg

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No-one especially wants to use 373s on UIC GC gauged routes; they're only being used when there's nothing else available.

The Three Capitals sets really have no use any more; the only reason that Eurostar aren't scrapping them all and replacing with 374s is that they can't afford to.

The NoL sets could be used on electrified UK mainlines, but they're expensive to run compared to 140mph trains (390s and 801s). The only sensible use I could see for them would be as classic-compatible sets once HS2 has been built. There aren't enough of them to cover all the CC diagrams, and it would make little sense to cut the CC order short by seven to use by-then thirty-year-old trains. It might be sensible to mothball them if HS2 phase one is anticipated to need more CC trains than will be needed after phase two is complete - the NoL trains could then cover the additional diagrams for the five years or so between the phases rather than forcing an oversized order and ending up with surplus CC trains in 2031.
 

AM9

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No-one especially wants to use 373s on UIC GC gauged routes; they're only being used when there's nothing else available.

The Three Capitals sets really have no use any more; the only reason that Eurostar aren't scrapping them all and replacing with 374s is that they can't afford to.

The NoL sets could be used on electrified UK mainlines, but they're expensive to run compared to 140mph trains (390s and 801s). The only sensible use I could see for them would be as classic-compatible sets once HS2 has been built. There aren't enough of them to cover all the CC diagrams, and it would make little sense to cut the CC order short by seven to use by-then thirty-year-old trains. It might be sensible to mothball them if HS2 phase one is anticipated to need more CC trains than will be needed after phase two is complete - the NoL trains could then cover the additional diagrams for the five years or so between the phases rather than forcing an oversized order and ending up with surplus CC trains in 2031.

I can just hear the wails of "why does the North get 30 year-old Eurostar cast-offs when London gets brand new HS2 stock!"
 
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Does anybody else find it strange that they are retiring perfectly serviceable 20 year old trains?
I realise they are in dire need of internal refurbishment but that's not exactly difficult is it?

It's more than just an internal refurbishment that's needed, or even an external refresh. There's a lot of electrical work needed and they need bringing up-to-date in several respects.

With regard to Eurostar's "Three Capitals" sets; if they weren't getting the new Velaros, then it's probable that the whole fleet of 28 would have received the refurbishment, rather than just the 14 that they mentioned last week.
Although the new trains will be used on new routes, they're also going to be used to "supplement" the 373's on the Paris and Brussels routes. That allows Eurostar to retire the older, surplus stock.

For any train with a projected service life of 30 years, it will be expected that refurbishment, major overhaul and possibly more involved updating work, will need to take place at certain stages in the trains useful lifetime.
The Eurostar 373's had an internal refurbishment about 10 years ago and they are now overdue for another, plus a major overhaul and updating. That will probably be the last time serious money will be spent on them, as it won't make any sense to do it next time round, when they'll be at, or near to being life expired.


...If they have no revenue earning service deployment then they are a dead loss in storage cost. 400 metre long trains cannot just be left behind the shed, they take up valuable track space. You could call it a 'wrong kind of train' problem!

Quite so. There is no work for the surplus trains.
It costs money to store unused stock, especially if it has to be kept in a condition that would allow them to be brought back into service, rather than being left to rot in the open air.
Even if they did, the longer they are left in store, the less likely the case to spend money on them to bring them back into service, as there'll be less and less useful life left in them as time goes on.
As there are newer trains available, the chances of any stored trains ever being revived, are virtually nil.


Plus they've been used pretty intensively over the last 20 years - regular high speed running surely takes its toll
I doubt any of the 373s have been as intensively used as the HSTs or even the 91s.

HS trains usually don't have as long an expected lifetime as classic type trains such as 125's and 225's.
Earlier HS trains in Japan (Shinkansen), France (TGV) and Germany (ICE), have been retired from as early as 16 years in some cases, but more usually between 20 to 28 years old.




--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The NoL sets satat around for 6 years, had a leisurely 110 mph run to Leeds and back for 5 years, sat around for another 2 then spent the last 7 back and forth from Paris to Lille and Calais. They must be the most lightly used HS trains in Europe.

They are a newer generation of technology than the Atlantique sets which ply their trade on the Brittany and Bordeaux lines....

It is more than a little sad that the NoL sets have been wasted for much of their lives. It was a tragic mistake to have built them in the first place and a huge waste of money. However the cost has long been written off and the wasted money can never be recovered.
The present day reality is that the whole episode is now just a small footnote in history and of little relevance to what happens to these trains today or in the future.
The fact that the trains have not been used for a third of their lives, may be of little consequence.

It would be great if some sensible use could be found for them, rather than some of the fairyland ideas we often see in these pages, but that would still involve a lot of money having to be spent, particularly on trains that have virtually no asset value.
Financially that doesn't work very well, so there's very little chance of an economic case being made to bring them back in to service.

Note that the refurbishment of the "Three Capitals' sets, is reported to be costing Eurostar around £200 million (14 trains).


 
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Noddy

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What are the open access options for the Tunnel and High Speed lines these days? I'm kind of surprised that Richard Branson/Virgin haven't tried to come and buy them on the cheap (like they tried with Concord) to run High Speed services.
 
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What are the open access options for the Tunnel and High Speed lines these days?

There are spare paths available on HS1. I can't say about the networks on the other side of the channel.

The Channel Tunnel is heavily used with car shuttles and lorry shuttles during the daytime, but I've no idea about any spare paths during that part of the day. There must be some, otherwise the proposed new services to Amsterdam etc, wouldn't be in prospect.
There's capacity late at night, when freight trains run through, but the access costs are high.

There hasn't exactly been a queue of prospective operators announcing plans though, suggesting there is virtually no interest.


I'm kind of surprised that Richard Branson/Virgin haven't tried to come and buy them on the cheap (like they tried with Concord) to run High Speed services.

Branson's Concorde plans were purely a publicity stunt.
There was no possible way for the airline (which Virgin Group only half own) to have been able to put Concorde aircraft into service. Even with buying them for the £1 a plane he touted.
He was seizing on a PR opportunity presented by the Daily Wail type "Shock Horror, Concorde to be retired" headlines.
It was just another PR attack on BA and another attempt to bolster the All-British Good Guy image that Branson worked tirelessly to bestow on his various Virgin branded interests.

Quite importantly, Airbus, who had inherited the role of providing the manufacturer's technical support for Concorde, had announced that they were no longer going to continue supporting the aircraft in the future. It was costing them too much and making a loss.
Even without the disastrous crash, BA and Air France would have had to stop operating without a supply of spare parts and Airbus' technical support.


 
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ainsworth74

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The Channel Tunnel is heavily used with car shuttles and lorry shuttles during the daytime, but I've no idea about any spare paths during that part of the day. There must be some, otherwise the proposed new services to Amsterdam etc, wouldn't be in prospect.
There's capacity late at night, when freight trains run through, but the access costs are high.

My understanding is that during day time the Tunnel is nearing capacity (but isn't full yet even with the extra services from Eurostar and DB) but it isn't near its absolute capacity as signalling upgrades could yield additional paths if required.
 

D6975

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The NoL sets satat around for 6 years, had a leisurely 110 mph run to Leeds and back for 5 years, sat around for another 2 then spent the last 7 back and forth from Paris to Lille and Calais. They must be the most lightly used HS trains in Europe.

York, not Leeds. I had a ride on one a couple of times between Doncaster and York.
 

starrymarkb

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The NoL sets satat around for 6 years, had a leisurely 110 mph run to Leeds and back for 5 years, sat around for another 2 then spent the last 7 back and forth from Paris to Lille and Calais. They must be the most lightly used HS trains in Europe.

I think that's the Dutch V250 ;) 3 weeks in service and now being scrapped ;)
 

Rational Plan

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The real reason for the Tunnel's lack of traffic has been politics. Not just the usual stuff about schengenn etc either. Eurostar was a three way venture between the British, French and Belgian railways, where it remained silo'd as a little monopoly between them. The high charges for additional services through the tunnel, by a company overwhelmed by debt, did not help either.

Eurostar was not exactly an entrepreneurial organisation.

I suspect the biggest hurdles to new services has been the excessive safety requirements of the tunnel and the requirement of special trains, and prior to HS1 the British loading gauge.

As these hurdles have fallen the barriers to new entrants have gotten smaller.

SNCF will still provide opposition to new entrants, but here new laws from Europe allow new services to be launched through others territory.

At the moment though even the new relaxed tunnel standards are still inhibiting new train services. It's certainly delaying DB's new services.

But at least this has provided impetus for Eurostar invest in new trains and look at new routes.

I'm not sure that Schengen is such a big problem, more that it's an excuse for some good old fashioned turf battles within Whitehall and the Border force is proving especially stubborn. The problem is there is no political upside to forcing changes through now in these febrile times. People don't know what they are missing, if it's not available in the first place.
 

Olaf

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Schengen isn't just EU members though. Switzerland, Norway and Iceland (another island nation) are members too. And some of the eastern EU states are not members (yet).

Correct, I am aware of that, but nor does that contradict what I have said; even the instigators of the treaty have suggested that changes need to be made to the agreement to tighten controls.


I know people have said its all been discussed before (sorry I am new) but I completly fail to see how there cannot be the demand. Both Greater Manchester and Greater Birmingham have multi-million populations, with multiple daily flights to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam et al. With the new stations being built it should be relatively easy to construct an international platform, which can be opened and closed easily. There are already border guards at the local airports, which are going to be connected to HS2! Hopefully the Greater Manchester and Greater Birmingham regional mayors get their act together and lobby seriously for the connection.

As I said; there is as part of the technical specifications, provision to be made in the design of the stations to allow for immigration control facilities on the HS2.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What are the open access options for the Tunnel and High Speed lines these days? I'm kind of surprised that Richard Branson/Virgin haven't tried to come and buy them on the cheap (like they tried with Concord) to run High Speed services.

DB has stated that they will introduce direct services from London to Koln and Frankfurt, but teh dates have slipped - I am not sure what the current target dates are at the moment.

An Italian operator also investigated options, but that I think was a no-starter.

The tunnel is not heavily used; utilisation has not stretched the design capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The real reason for the Tunnel's lack of traffic has been politics. Not just the usual stuff about schengenn etc either. Eurostar was a three way venture between the British, French and Belgian railways, where it remained silo'd as a little monopoly between them. The high charges for additional services through the tunnel, by a company overwhelmed by debt, did not help either.

Eurostar was not exactly an entrepreneurial organisation.

I suspect the biggest hurdles to new services has been the excessive safety requirements of the tunnel and the requirement of special trains, and prior to HS1 the British loading gauge.

As these hurdles have fallen the barriers to new entrants have gotten smaller.

SNCF will still provide opposition to new entrants, but here new laws from Europe allow new services to be launched through others territory.

At the moment though even the new relaxed tunnel standards are still inhibiting new train services. It's certainly delaying DB's new services.

But at least this has provided impetus for Eurostar invest in new trains and look at new routes.

I'm not sure that Schengen is such a big problem, more that it's an excuse for some good old fashioned turf battles within Whitehall and the Border force is proving especially stubborn. The problem is there is no political upside to forcing changes through now in these febrile times. People don't know what they are missing, if it's not available in the first place.

Another aspect is that the operational costs of high speed rail and the competition from low-cost airlines makes it difficult to build business cases except for connections between large conurbations. Unfortunately, the 3-4 hour limit restricts the candidates for direct connections from the UK.
 
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...DB has stated that they will introduce direct services from London to Koln and Frankfurt, but teh dates have slipped - I am not sure what the current target dates are at the moment.....

When DB announced its plans to operate to London and brought the ICE 3 to St. Pancras in 2010, they were hoping for a 2012/13 start date. They even muted that they might be able to start in time for the 2012 Olympic Games; which seemed a tad ambitious as the new trains they intended to use (Velaro D) hadn't even been built at the time.

Later on that proposed start date was put back to 2015, but with the ongoing problems with introducing the new trains into service, DB subsequently put the date back again to late 2016 at the earliest.

In February this year, DB officially announced an indefinite delay and that they were reconsidering whether to continue with the plan at all, citing "a change in the market" and "None of us anticipated that we would have such major problems with certification. In the meantime, the business environment has changed.".
Eurostars announcement of its plans to start an Amsterdam service has also scuppered DB's own business case.
It is thought that if a DB Frankfurt service eventually goes ahead, it won't be until the end of this decade at the very earliest (2020+).

At the Eurostar e320 event at St. Pancras last week, Eurostar said that the Koln/Franfurt service would be a connection from Eurostar to DB at Brussels, rather than through services.


Another aspect is that the operational costs of high speed rail and the competition from low-cost airlines makes it difficult to build business cases except for connections between large conurbations.

Off topic, but on the subject of competition from low cost airlines.
It has irked me somewhat to see that competition from low cost airlines is generally cited as one of the reasons why the Regional Eurostar services didn't go ahead, back in the late 1990's.
While the other economic arguments that killed of that plan were totally valid, it's the repeating of this particular aspect that's become a constant source of irritation for me. If I may just get it off my chest, I'd like to see an end to this myth (or lie?) being perpetuated.

Facts....

The scale of the low cost airlines was still quite small until the early 2000's, when they're growth rates exploded. This was long after the ill fated Reg. E* had been canned.

For the Reg E* services that were proposed, there were no low cost operators flying from the regional departure points to those respective European cities. Only so called "full fare" operators.

Low cost flights from Manchester and Leeds to Paris have only been operating in the last 5 or 6 years; the Leeds service can only muster 4 flights a week.
These flights started 10 years or more after the cancellation of Reg. E*.
Manchester is the biggest market, but is predominately flown by the full fare operators.

There have never been low cost flights between Manchester or Leeds to Brussels, Cologne or Frankfurt, only full fare operators on these routes.
In fact Leeds has not had any flights to theses cities for long periods of time over the last 2 decades.

There have never been low cost flights from Birmingham to Paris, Brussels, Cologne or Frankfurt, despite the regular full fare operations.
Birmingham to Amsterdam low cost flights have been on and off over the years and really haven't taken a foothold against KLM's service.

Incidentally, low cost airline operations have not really prospered on the London to Paris, Brussels and Frankfurt markets either, despite being very busy air routes.

OK now I've got that off my chest, back to the topic........



 
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33Hz

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I don't understand how Eurostar promoting a change to DB at Brussels changes the situation at all. In fact if they are talking about everyone having to detrain at Lille for 60-90 minutes on the way back from Amsterdam, that's worse than the current situation where there is a 35 minute connection from the Thalys to the last Eurostar. I've done both Amsterdam and Frankfurt several times.

Re the issues that DB are having: Aren't their trains and the e320s similar enough that Siemens should essential be able to get both into international service simultaneously?
 
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paul1609

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Schengen isn't just EU members though. Switzerland, Norway and Iceland (another island nation) are members too. And some of the eastern EU states are not members (yet).

I know people have said its all been discussed before (sorry I am new) but I completly fail to see how there cannot be the demand. Both Greater Manchester and Greater Birmingham have multi-million populations, with multiple daily flights to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam et al. With the new stations being built it should be relatively easy to construct an international platform, which can be opened and closed easily. There are already border guards at the local airports, which are going to be connected to HS2! Hopefully the Greater Manchester and Greater Birmingham regional mayors get their act together and lobby seriously for the connection.

Check out how many seats are on these "multiple daily flights to Paris" from Manchester and Birmingham. Id suggest that the average daily loading from both cities is not enough to fill one Eurostar and this is with journey times of 1 h30 by air as opposed to around 6 hours from Manchester by Rail.
The through Eurostar tickets sales from the North are very low. I think its less than a 1000 tickets a month from East Coast destinations.
 

Class83

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If the Nightstar had happened it could have got a fair chunk of Scottish/Northern English passengers. Eurostar plus connection over 5 hours from Northern English Cities, flying (even with check-in/security) is less than 3. And pricewise Eurostar is similar to KLM/AF not Easyjet/Ryanair.
 

ainsworth74

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The through Eurostar tickets sales from the North are very low. I think its less than a 1000 tickets a month from East Coast destinations.

Though part of that is probably down to a failure of advertising more than anything. When's the last time anyone saw an advert for buying a through ticket from say Newcastle to Paris? If people don't know it exists then they certainly won't use it. I also wonder how many people might travel from an East Coast destination to the continent but buy separate tickets because they don't know you can get through tickets?

Don't get me wrong I'm completely sure that until/unless the price of air travel rises significantly then flying will always be the main mode of travel for most that wish to go to the continent from the North/Scotland/Wales/South West and probably for plenty in the South East also. But I do think that Eurostar aren't exactly trying very hard to drum up custom either.
 

92002

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Though part of that is probably down to a failure of advertising more than anything. When's the last time anyone saw an advert for buying a through ticket from say Newcastle to Paris? If people don't know it exists then they certainly won't use it. I also wonder how many people might travel from an East Coast destination to the continent but buy separate tickets because they don't know you can get through tickets?

Don't get me wrong I'm completely sure that until/unless the price of air travel rises significantly then flying will always be the main mode of travel for most that wish to go to the continent from the North/Scotland/Wales/South West and probably for plenty in the South East also. But I do think that Eurostar aren't exactly trying very hard to drum up custom either.

Have just booked a ticket from Glasgow to Amsterdam for £62 return.

Journey time of 1h 30m, as opposed to 7h 30m minimum.

That's how it is a no brainer to even consider the train.
 
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ainsworth74

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I thought I made it clear I was well aware of how it's a 'no brainer' to fly rather than take the train?
 
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