London Bridge reconstruction works

[SF-02]

Ball is already rolling on a small amount of additional stock very soon.

It'll be needed. Is it fair to say some have been caught with their pants down? Was told no need for more stock, and none was announced in the franchise extension or in the months and years leading up to it.

Suddenly the works getting close, cuts are to be introduced, passenger numbers are growing along with the population and some may be thinking 'oh dear'?

I've said before that getting rid of 508s soon after a refurb (then leaving to rot) was a bit silly when even the few networkers used for it could have lengthened peak time metro trains. If things get bad who knows where stock will come from. Could those 317s in store go to Great Northern who give some 365s to southeastern?

 

[acepepper]

I really do feel the works programme has been organised for the convenience of the construction contractors and not for the passengers - which is of course the new 21st Century way of doing projects.

As I understand it -

No trains from the "north side" of the SE (eg via Greenwich) to Charing Cross ever again.

No Thameslink through London Bridge at all for the next several years. This ruins a convenient way from the West End/Canary Wharf etc via the Jubilee Line to Gatwick Airport etc.

No trains to Charing Cross will stop at London Bridge for the next couple of years. Among other things, this means those from Greenwich etc (point above) to Waterloo/Charing Cross cannot even change at London Bridge to get to Charing Cross.

As there have been some ridiculous moment of excessive hype from the PR side of this project in the past, like all the ludicrous puffs about the new viaduct across Borough Market being "completed", and how wonderful that would now make journeys, completely ignoring that although the civils bit was finished no tracks were going to be laid on it for several more years, I presume we are in for more rubbish about what a wonderful improvement the new changes from December are.

That's another thing I've wondered about; what provision, if any, is being made to get these people to CHX? Anyone know?

 

[otomous]

There will be some benefits for SE services yes.

A massive reduction in delay causing conflicts for a start. The Thameslink trains currently block up and down SE trains on 4, 5 and 6 and the through loop on their way to and from the Central side - before blocking Southern trains on the down fast and slow to New Cross Gate. Once we have dedicated and segregated tracks from New Cross Gate all of those should disappear.

There will be dedicated platforms and more concourse space which should simplify passenger flows.

All SE trains will be able to call at London Bridge which they can't now and will have longer dwell times as the platform occupation time won't be quite as critical.

Also by virtue of a number of Southern services being wholly 700 operated a sub lease of 377s will be available for SE to lengthen their longer distance trains and thus cascade Networkers to lengthen metro routes.

Also if you want to stretch a point, access to the City, Clerkenwell, Kings X/St Pancras etc etc could well be improved for SE passengers who come in on Charing Cross services and change, because there will be a large increase in trains to these areas which are currently not served from London Bridge during the peaks. It might mean not having to battle on to the tube for some. The upgrade of the core and the increase in services effectively gives us a new tube-style line across the centre of London. Given the relatively small distance between Cannon Street and Blackfriars it should also make up for the overall loss of Cannon Street trains after 2018.

It is certainly going to be a painful four years, I have come to dread working trains in and out of the Bridge, but I fear we are talking omelettes and eggs...

 

[user15681]

From January, Greenwich users will need to catch a service to Cannon Street. For Waterloo, change at London Bridge for Jubilee line to Southwark and Waterloo. For Charing Cross, go to Cannon Street and get the District/Circle to Embankment. Or buses 381, RV1 or 15.

There's a huge amount of travel advice on the website. It's being updated and added to under the Thameslink section almost daily at the moment. http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/thameslink/january2015/travel-advice/

 

[acepepper]

There will be some benefits for SE services yes.

A massive reduction in delay causing conflicts for a start. The Thameslink trains currently block up and down SE trains on 4, 5 and 6 and the through loop on their way to and from the Central side - before blocking Southern trains on the down fast and slow to New Cross Gate. Once we have dedicated and segregated tracks from New Cross Gate all of those should disappear.

There will be dedicated platforms and more concourse space which should simplify passenger flows.

All SE trains will be able to call at London Bridge which they can't now and will have longer dwell times as the platform occupation time won't be quite as critical.

Also by virtue of a number of Southern services being wholly 700 operated a sub lease of 377s will be available for SE to lengthen their longer distance trains and thus cascade Networkers to lengthen metro routes.

LOL, that's another way of saying they'll be waiting in the queue to get through Borough Market.

 

[otomous]

Well hopefully not as they should have their own shiny pair of tracks over a sparkly new viaduct

It can't be worse than leaving the low level 15 minutes late and waiting for an up Thameslink to clear Spa Road junction so that you can be a mere 18 minutes late then catching up with an Overground doing never more than 15mph seemingly then waiting for all 12 coaches of a down Thameslink from Tulse Hill to clear the Crystal Palace spur. Yours looking forward to 2018.

 

[fromthemurkyde]

Hi all, I've been writing about the works for a while now, particularly focusing on the Greenwich line.

With final timetables out it looks like a substantial cut from January in what I regard, as a frequent user, as the high peak PM hour - 5:30pm - 6:30pm. Can someone tell me if I've got the numbers wrong as if not there may possibly be big problems come January.

Headline figure is a reduction in passenger capacity from 9521 to 7680 from London terminals out along the Greenwich line at that busy time.

9 trains are cut to 6. The remaining 6 all stop at Woolwich Dockyard so can't be longer than 10 car. Can someone confirm that as I'm still told 10 is the max but ANY chance of a workaround?

Currently there's 4x Class 376 10 car running, 4x 8 car Networkers and 1x 6 car networker. Assuming all 6 remaining trains become 10 car class 376 that gives the drop in capacity mentioned above - about 20%.

However 2 of the remaining 6 will go on to Gravesend. Is it still the case that Class 376 will be prevented from running this far? I've been told they will now run that far, and indeed I was on a 376 from Charing X to Medway the other day so assume that it is ok.

One other thing I cover in my blog is new developments. Almost every station on the Greenwich line is having large developments going up right now for occupation in 2015. It may be a bit of a nightmare. Some may take the DLR or change patterns but the scale of cuts at the busiest PM hour seems so great that issues will occur.

I've long said the work is needed, but if 12 cars are not running on the line then sthat's very poor form as the issue should have been sorted over recent years.

 

[acepepper]

Well hopefully not as they should have their own shiny pair of tracks over a sparkly new viaduct

It can't be worse than leaving the low level 15 minutes late and waiting for an up Thameslink to clear Spa Road junction so that you can be a mere 18 minutes late then catching up with an Overground doing never more than 15mph seemingly then waiting for all 12 coaches of a down Thameslink from Tulse Hill to clear the Crystal Palace spur. Yours looking forward to 2018.

Only joking Yes there will be a lot of improvements in the next few years, (Crossrail etc). In all my time on the railway, I've never seen so much investment. We were always the poor relations to the roads.

But I still have this nagging feeling that SE passengers are going to be far from satisfied with the difference it makes to their journeys, considering all the chaos that will be inflicted on them in the next few years.

 

[Class377/5]

Only joking Yes there will be a lot of improvements in the next few years, (Crossrail etc). In all my time on the railway, I've never seen so much investment. We were always the poor relations to the roads.

But I still have this nagging feeling that SE passengers are going to be far from satisfied with the difference it makes to their journeys, considering all the chaos that will be inflicted on them in the next few years.

There'd be far more chaos long term if the bottleneck isn't fixed. And London Bridge is a massive bottleneck.

 

[acepepper]

There'd be far more chaos long term if the bottleneck isn't fixed. And London Bridge is a massive bottleneck.

But that's my point, the bottleneck hasn't really been fixed for SE passengers, there just won't be quite so much going through it. I thought that in times of stock failure, signal problems etc, when Boro Market becomes a nightmare, there would be a way round with the new lines. But there won't. It will be the same old drag through there that it's always been.

 

[Class377/5]

But that's my point, the bottleneck hasn't really been fixed for SE passengers, there just won't be quite so much going through it. I thought that in times of stock failure, signal problems etc, when Boro Market becomes a nightmare, there would be a way round with the new lines. But there won't. It will be the same old drag through there that it's always been.

I don't agree. Its making things simpler. As pointed out you can't just add more capacity as its Charing Cross that's actually a bigger problem. As for more lines, there is physically no space give four tracks the whole way. Adding in two new lines was difficult enough with planning permission. As for same old drag, not really in the new layout as there's no real conflict on the Charing Cross allowing more trains through.

 

[swt_passenger]

But that's my point, the bottleneck hasn't really been fixed for SE passengers, there just won't be quite so much going through it. I thought that in times of stock failure, signal problems etc, when Boro Market becomes a nightmare, there would be a way round with the new lines. But there won't. It will be the same old drag through there that it's always been.

There definitely will be running junctions and crossovers allowing use of the 'other lines' in order to deal with stock failures and planned engineering works. The Thameslink and Charing Cross routes will still be provided with all the necessary flat crossings as well as the grade separation at Bermondsey for normal operations.

 

[acepepper]

There definitely will be running junctions and crossovers allowing use of the 'other lines' in order to deal with stock failures and planned engineering works. The Thameslink and Charing Cross routes will still be provided with all the necessary flat crossings as well as the grade separation at Bermondsey for normal operations.

I hope you're right, it would make more sense, but we were told on a recent brief that that wouldn't be the case.

 

[ComUtoR]

thought that in times of stock failure, signal problems etc, when Boro Market becomes a nightmare, there would be a way round with the new lines. But there won't. It will be the same old drag through there that it's always been.

Even though its 1 up and 1 down across the new viaduct and no doubt a metro train will be cursing the mainline as he gets the road. There is still an option to use Thameslink lines through to Charing Cross as a get out of jail free card.

I only remember once when a train managed to get stuck across met jn and effectively trapped everyone in Charing Cross. Funny, but hell on earth.

 

[swt_passenger]

I hope you're right, it would make more sense, but we were told on a recent brief that that wouldn't be the case.

I'm only going by the layout in the Network Change Notice that's been discussed in earlier threads on this subject. If SE reckon none of the facilities will actually get used, perhaps even at this late stage NR could shave some more off the overall project cost?

There are insiders who post here that know far more than me though, I'd expect someone will be along before too long...

 

[Bald Rick]

There are insiders who post here that know far more than me though, I'd expect someone will be along before too long...

Here sir! Been busy watching the football. Wish I'd had that 4/1 on England win and both teams score.

Not much to add to what has been said. But I will anyway.

1) Borough market isn't the main bottleneck for Charing Cross services - trains can be timed to follow 90 seconds apart, and regularly beat that. The bottlenecks are Charing Cross platforms, Thameslink trains crossing at Met Jn and Spa Rd Jn, and SE trains crossing from slow side to Charing X or fast side to Cannon St on the eastern approaches. All being fixed save for the CHX platforms.

2) there was much argument about providing point work between the TL lines and Charing Cross lines both at Met Jn and east of London Bridge. It will be installed but only ever used for planned engineering work, or in extremis to deal with a major failure. They won't be used during most disruptive incidents, as it will spread delays from SE to TL or vice versa. London Bridge will have four separate railways: Southern into platforms 10-15, SE CHX into 6-9, Thameslink on 4&5, SE CST 1-3. There will be no interaction between the services at all, indeed they will be controlled by 3 or 4 different signallers (tbc).

3) the new viaduct is for CHX services. As a by product it gets a line speed improvement which will shave a small amount of time off all services to/from CHX. The main benefit of this is slightly improved junction clearance times at Borough Market and Met Jns.

4) it won't just be a new station. It will be the best station in the country, arguably Europe (from my experience).

 

[ComUtoR]

From 2018 will New Cross and Deptford services be Calling at Charing Cross ?

Will all those services be able to use the new Diveunder ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Do you think that most normal commuters have any idea of the disruption they'll face for the next few years? For instance how many, I wonder realize that no Charing Cross services will stop at London Bridge, (up or down) for 18 months?

Well at Abbey Wood, staff were handing out leaflets today to commuters leaving the station this afternoon. If that's being repeated elsewhere, I'd suggest most people won't have an excuse for not knowing. And there are big posters about it all over the Waterloo East exits.

 

[Bald Rick]

From 2018 will New Cross and Deptford services be Calling at Charing Cross ?

Will all those services be able to use the new Diveunder ?

Cheers in advance.

In a word no, not in normal operation.

 

[user15681]

Well at Abbey Wood, staff were handing out leaflets today to commuters leaving the station this afternoon. If that's being repeated elsewhere, I'd suggest most people won't have an excuse for not knowing. And there are big posters about it all over the Waterloo East exits.

Part of 20 or so 'Meet the Manager' evening sessions at a lot of effected stations, predominantly in the Metro area. Perfect opportunity for people to ask questions about the works.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can't see two up platforms speeding things up to be honest. There are two up platforms for Cannon St, but still only one train at a time can leave. It will be the same on the CX side.

I think it'll be huge. At the moment, because there's only one regular CX-up platform, when a CX-bound train stops at London Bridge, it blocks all the trains behind it (except for the small number that skip LBG) until it leaves the station. During the day that's not a problem, but during the morning rush hour there are normally so many people wanting to get on and off every such train that dwell times end up being massive. As I understand it, that's basically the reason why in the morning so many CX-bound trains end up queuing and crawling the last mile or two into London Bridge. But when the improvements are complete, there'll be two side by side platforms, so it'll no trouble for trains to simply alternate between the platforms, so two trains can be loading/unloading at once. The fact that they both will leave onto the same track, so they can only leave one at a time doesn't matter because it's the loading/unloading time - not the time leaving the platform - that causes the bottleneck.

In effect, once the works are done, any CX train that wants to enter LBG won't have to wait until the previous train has left the platform - it'll only need to wait until the last-but-one train has left the platform, which in practice would probably mean trains queuing will be the exception, not the rule.

(I'm not an expert, so please correct me if I've got any of that wrong).

 

[Bald Rick]

I think it'll be huge. At the moment, because there's only one regular CX-up platform, when a CX-bound train stops at London Bridge, it blocks all the trains behind it (except for the small number that skip LBG) until it leaves the station. During the day that's not a problem, but during the morning rush hour there are normally so many people wanting to get on and off every such train that dwell times end up being massive. As I understand it, that's basically the reason why in the morning so many CX-bound trains end up queuing and crawling the last mile or two into London Bridge. But when the improvements are complete, there'll be two side by side platforms, so it'll no trouble for trains to simply alternate between the platforms, so two trains can be loading/unloading at once. The fact that they both will leave onto the same track, so they can only leave one at a time doesn't matter because it's the loading/unloading time - not the time leaving the platform - that causes the bottleneck.

In effect, once the works are done, any CX train that wants to enter LBG won't have to wait until the previous train has left the platform - it'll only need to wait until the last-but-one train has left the platform.

(I'm not an expert, so please correct me if I've got any of that wrong).

Spot on.

 

[ComUtoR]

In a word no, not in normal operation.

So its permanent that passengers will change at London Bridge ? If that is the case then how about extending New Cross Station on to the Fast lines ?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

4) it won't just be a new station. It will be the best station in the country, arguably Europe (from my experience).

Care to elaborate? I'm intrigued by this, since I've looked at the pictures of what the new station is supposed to be like, and while it looks nicer and more spacious than the current one (not hard really since LBG has been quite a mess for a long time), I didn't notice anything that made me think, 'wow, best in Europe'.

 

[Bald Rick]

So its permanent that passengers will change at London Bridge ? If that is the case then how about extending New Cross Station on to the Fast lines ?

Not enough lines, or space to build the platforms. Fast lines will have the entire Charing cross service, 28-30 trains an hour. Would need two platforms for each direction, and all trains to call.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Care to elaborate? I'm intrigued by this, since I've looked at the pictures of what the new station is supposed to be like, and while it looks nicer and more spacious than the current one (not hard really since LBG has been quite a mess for a long time), I didn't notice anything that made me think, 'wow, best in Europe'.

You'll just have to wait and see.

 

[30yearsadriver]

In the 80's I was so confident that I would be stopped a Borough Market Junction that I would leave the book I was reading on my drivers desk after I had left Charring Cross, as the chances were high, I would be stopped on a red for several minutes once in reached the junction. For a few years in the early 90's the redesign of Charring Cross station seemed to ease congestion but since the introduction of trains through the core, it seems to be more congested than ever. The figment of Driver Advisory System to the class 700 units will I am confident, improve regulation and reduce train delay.

 

[Bald Rick]

In the 80's I was so confident that I would be stopped a Borough Market Junction that I would leave the book I was reading on my drivers desk after I had left Charring Cross, as the chances were high, I would be stopped on a red for several minutes once in reached the junction. For a few years in the early 90's the redesign of Charring Cross station seemed to ease congestion but since the introduction of trains through the core, it seems to be more congested than ever. The figment of Driver Advisory System to the class 700 units will I am confident, improve regulation and reduce train delay.

The 700s will be driving themselves at Borough Market Jn from 2018, so that book can be dusted off again.

(Except of course Drivers will still be required to keep a sharp lookout of the road ahead under ATO).

 

[ComUtoR]

SE are also getting a Driver Advisory System. Not sure which units it will be fitted to. Electrostars most likely as they have the Mitrac.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 700s will be driving themselves at Borough Market Jn from 2018, so that book can be dusted off again.

Do you think its possible you can lean your foot against the door close button and have a kip till Kentish Town...

 

[FlippyFF]

Once all the work are completed, will Charing Cross become a Southeastern Mainline only station i.e. no Metro services?

TIA

 

[Bald Rick]

Once all the work are completed, will Charing Cross become a Southeastern Mainline only station i.e. no Metro services?

TIA

Same as now, except no Greenwich services.