Use of Horns

[alexl92]

Can someone remind me under which circumstances trains should sound their horns around stations? I live relatively near Huddersfield Station and I'm hearing horns from the 185s (I *think* the west-bound trains) every few minutes today - I don't normally hear them this often. Some of them are the full 3 tones as well.

Any ideas why this might be?

 

[Clip]

May be just something as simple as workmen on the line by there

 

[Deepgreen]

Almost certainly workers on the track. When you say "3 tones" do you mean the 2 different notes followed by the first note again?

 

[Ground Frame]

Sounds like 2 tones to warn P Way workers and 1 tone to acknowledge their acknowledgment of the warning.

 

[alexl92]

Almost certainly workers on the track. When you say "3 tones" do you mean the 2 different notes followed by the first note again?

Yeah! The only reason I'm surprised is that I can see part of the viaduct just east of the station from near my house, and whenever I've heard the horns, no train has crossed the bridge in the following seconds - which was why I assumed it was westbound, but westbound trains go straight into the tunnel.

Must be workers though, I think. Possibly in the sidings, which I can't see.

 

[Deepgreen]

Another possibility might be a failed signal with permission to pass - I believe the horn must be sounded before moving the train at visual caution speed. I don't know the location well, so this may not be the case here.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Another possibility might be a failed signal with permission to pass - I believe the horn must be sounded before moving the train at visual caution speed. I don't know the location well, so this may not be the case here.

When passing a signal at danger with the signallers permission, it is one long blast on the horn.

PW workers sounds like the best bet. Two tones to warn, one in response to their wave of acknowledgement.

 

[WCMLaddict]

When passing a signal at danger with the signallers permission, it is one long blast on the horn.

That has been taken out of the rule book.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That has been taken out of the rule book.

They really do love pandering to the NIMBYs don't they.........

 

[455driver]

They really do love pandering to the NIMBYs don't they.........

Yes!
I always find it strange that people buy a house near a railway line (or airport, motorway etc) and then complain about the noise. Why didnt they buy a house in a quieter area, could it be because the house near the railway line (or whatever) is cheaper, but then they miss the point about why the house is cheaper its because it is near the railway line (or whatever) and so will be a bit noisy.!

 

[BritishRail83]

That has been taken out of the rule book.

Not a good idea really. I read somewhere that Drivers only need to sound horns in tunnels now if they know that there are track gangs about? Doesn't make sense to me?

 

[Llanigraham]

Not a good idea really. I read somewhere that Drivers only need to sound horns in tunnels now if they know that there are track gangs about? Doesn't make sense to me?

What's the point of a driver blowing one long when the signalman might be 100 miles away? In AB sections when the Box can see the signal, yes, but we are getting more and more rare.

 

[otomous]

It's for track workers who may think because a signal is at danger that no train will approach.

 

[alexl92]

Yes!
I always find it strange that people buy a house near a railway line (or airport, motorway etc) and then complain about the noise. Why didnt they buy a house in a quieter area, could it be because the house near the railway line (or whatever) is cheaper, but then they miss the point about why the house is cheaper its because it is near the railway line (or whatever) and so will be a bit noisy.!

I'm certainly not complaining. In fact, I just wish I had a clear view of the line!

 

[carriageline]

I always hear it was for the guard incase he wondered why it was passed at danger?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jamesb1974]

That has been taken out of the rule book.

Has it? Wasn't aware. Nevertheless, I WILL still be blowing a long blast on the horn when passing a signal at danger.

What's the point of a driver blowing one long when the signalman might be 100 miles away? In AB sections when the Box can see the signal, yes, but we are getting more and more rare.

You Bobbies might be getting more and more rare, but those men in orange outfits are bloody everywhere! The horn gets blown!

 

[Antman]

Yes!
I always find it strange that people buy a house near a railway line (or airport, motorway etc) and then complain about the noise. Why didnt they buy a house in a quieter area, could it be because the house near the railway line (or whatever) is cheaper, but then they miss the point about why the house is cheaper its because it is near the railway line (or whatever) and so will be a bit noisy.!

I don't think it unreasonable to complain about excessive noise and train horns can be heard some distance away from the railway line

 

[muz379]

I don't think it unreasonable to complain about excessive noise and train horns can be heard some distance away from the railway line

Depends what you are calling excessive .
I sometimes hear train horns from a railway line about 1.5 mile away from my house if the wind conditions are right etc however I would never complain it is excessive because it is fairly faint .

Like with airports its only people under the flight path that suffer excessive noise however if you bought a house under the flightpath of any major airport what did you expect to be the case ?


Id say to get noise of excessive volume from a railway one would have to live relatively close to the source .

 

[Delta558]

I don't think it unreasonable to complain about excessive noise and train horns can be heard some distance away from the railway line

I think you are confusing 'excessive' with 'unnecessary'. I have no problem with unnecessary noise being eliminated, but I think that priorities have been shifted in a bad way - take (for example) the removal from the rule book of the need to blow the horn when entering a tunnel. It keeps the locals happy, as they can enjoy their picnic in the back garden with no interruption. However, for that one-in-a-million time, somebody has to protect their train and is entering a tunnel. The horn would echo through and give them a chance to get into a refuge.

We were taught to work to the worst case scenario in every situation - what could happen, rather than what normally happens. Odds of one in a million are good, but try telling that to the family of that one when they have to identify his / her body.

 

[Anchorman_02]

I think you are confusing 'excessive' with 'unnecessary'. I have no problem with unnecessary noise being eliminated, but I think that priorities have been shifted in a bad way - take (for example) the removal from the rule book of the need to blow the horn when entering a tunnel. It keeps the locals happy, as they can enjoy their picnic in the back garden with no interruption. However, for that one-in-a-million time, somebody has to protect their train and is entering a tunnel. The horn would echo through and give them a chance to get into a refuge.

We were taught to work to the worst case scenario in every situation - what could happen, rather than what normally happens. Odds of one in a million are good, but try telling that to the family of that one when they have to identify his / her body.

If you are protecting inside a tunnel, you would know which of the two lines presented a risk to you and you would definitely know if a train entered a tunnel. These changes have been done for a reason and are long overdue. It's all well and good saying that the railway was there before the houses but people aren't always lucky enough to have their viewing coincide with a train passing and even if they did, they wouldn't necessarily associate the sounding of a horn with the presence of a whistle board (which should with very few exceptions, be removed IMO). Imagine what that would mean for those people that have kids or are on shift work. There are very few reasons why the use of horn can be justified these days with the exception of the presence of p'way or a few special horn codes. And for somebody to state that they will continue to sound the horn when passing a signal at danger as above is just a demonstration of their lack of understanding. The only time I have done it since the rules changed was when there were men working beyond the signal. I gave a pop on the horn just to confirm I was on the move and they were very quick to respond. Providing everyone has followed the rules, the signaller should know when there are men working on the line and he won't send you past a signal unless they are aware of the situation.

 

[Mintona]

You may think whistle boards should be removed, but I'd say they are pretty useful at foot and occupational crossings, especially those on a bend in the track. A trial is currently taking place with 2 whistle boards fitted to each post to remind drivers to blow both tones when passing said post, so I imagine this will be an industry standard soon (back to the way it was).

 

[DelayRepay]

Like with airports its only people under the flight path that suffer excessive noise however if you bought a house under the flightpath of any major airport what did you expect to be the case ?

What if, like me, you bought a house near the airport but not under the flight path, then the airport changed the flight paths so now planes fly directly over the house? I'm not bothered - the noise doesn't bother me and the airport is very convenient for weekends away But some of my neighbors who have lived here for 30 years + are unhappy and I sympathise.

Not as bad as my last house though which I rented - directly under Heathrow's flight path but I did both viewings when the ash cloud problem had closed the airport.

Like I say, not really bothered, it's part and parcel of modern life. The same as train noise.

 

[Tomnick]

Providing everyone has followed the rules, the signaller should know when there are men working on the line and he won't send you past a signal unless they are aware of the situation.

Not if (as many do, quite legitimately) they're working "red zone" - on a line open to traffic. My understand is that one of the reasons for the long blast on the horn was for their benefit, where they might otherwise be led to conclude that a train standing at a signal at danger doesn't pose any immediate danger to them. That's certainly less relevant nowadays, not least because of the vastly reduced number of semaphore signals (it's not often possible to tell whether a colour light signal's at danger when standing in advance of it!) and possibly much greater emphasis on the importance of not relying on one's own observation of signals anyway!

 

[DelayRepay]

A question for drivers: Fast trains through busy platforms usually give a honk or two of the horn as they approach the station to warn people waiting on the platform to stand back. Is this mandatory or is it at the driver's discretion?

(Just a query, not a complaint before someone gets on their high horse!)

 

[Mintona]

A question for drivers: Fast trains through busy platforms usually give a honk or two of the horn as they approach the station to warn people waiting on the platform to stand back. Is this mandatory or is it at the driver's discretion?

(Just a query, not a complaint before someone gets on their high horse!)

It's certainly not mandatory. I only do it if I'm approaching a station I'm not calling at and I can see somebody the wrong side of the yellow line. I'm sure other drivers do it more or less often, but that works for me.

 

[Anchorman_02]

You may think whistle boards should be removed, but I'd say they are pretty useful at foot and occupational crossings, especially those on a bend in the track. A trial is currently taking place with 2 whistle boards fitted to each post to remind drivers to blow both tones when passing said post, so I imagine this will be an industry standard soon (back to the way it was).

That seems odd when they've only recently changed it as an industry standard to use of the single tone of the horn. Do you know of such a location or better still a photo? Why would we need two boards if it was an industry standard and why is two tones better at some crossings than others?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I was taught that the rulebook was basically a list of incidents, if there was a rule, there was a reason for the rule.

.... I read somewhere that Drivers only need to sound horns in tunnels now if they know that there are track gangs about? Doesn't make sense to me?

.... The horn would echo through and give them a chance to get into a refuge....

If you are protecting inside a tunnel, you would know which of the two lines presented a risk to you and you would definitely know if a train entered a tunnel....

If I were protecting a train and had to go through a tunnel, especially one that is not dead straight, I'd want as much noticed as I could possibly get. The sound of a train that has, by that point, already entered the tunnel would be far less good to me than the sound of a train blowing it's horn before entering the tunnel.

But it's not just workers in the tunnel, it's also workers at the mouth of the tunnel. When I was a trainee driver, about ten years ago, the rule about blowing horns for tunnels was being removed. About week before the official change of rule, I was at the controls of a train heading south through Balcombe Tunnel. When I blew the horn on approach to the exit, an orange arm appeared at the mouth. Those who know Balcombe Tunnel will know that the banking on either side of the southern end is quite steep, when I left the tunnel I saw three orange men there. On the train back later the signaller called me, on approach to Balcombe station, to warn me that they were there.

After the rule change, I decided that I "deemed it necessary" to use the horn in that situation, because I might not know who is there.

....And for somebody to state that they will continue to sound the horn when passing a signal at danger as above is just a demonstration of their lack of understanding....

Or yours.

....The only time I have done it since the rules changed was when there were men working beyond the signal. I gave a pop on the horn just to confirm I was on the move and they were very quick to respond....

And if those workmen were around, but you couldn't see them, would you have blown your horn?

....Providing everyone has followed the rules, the signaller should know when there are men working on the line and he won't send you past a signal unless they are aware of the situation.

If they are just arriving on site, the signaller might not know they are there when letting a train pass. And if they didn't follow the rules.....

What if, like me, you bought a house near the airport but not under the flight path, then the airport changed the flight paths so now planes fly directly over the house? I'm not bothered - the noise doesn't bother me and the airport is very convenient for weekends away But some of my neighbors who have lived here for 30 years + are unhappy and I sympathise....

When the Railway lay a new track through you back garden, you have my sympathy. If you moved in with the track already there, you don't.

A question for drivers: Fast trains through busy platforms usually give a honk or two of the horn as they approach the station to warn people waiting on the platform to stand back. Is this mandatory or is it at the driver's discretion?

(Just a query, not a complaint before someone gets on their high horse!)

When I was a trainee, the rule was that you were required to blow the horn if a train was stationary on an adjacent line, I don't know if this is still a rule.

 

[mtbox]

A question for drivers: Fast trains through busy platforms usually give a honk or two of the horn as they approach the station to warn people waiting on the platform to stand back. Is this mandatory or is it at the driver's discretion?

(Just a query, not a complaint before someone gets on their high horse!)

The driver can sound the horn any time he deems necessary.

 

[driver9000]

While it is true the prescribed use of the warning horn in the Rule book has been watered down in recent years the rule still carries the words whenever the Drivers deems necessary.

This means if I deem it necessary to sound the horn passing a signal at danger, passing through a station, entering/exiting a tunnel, a shunting move on an adjacent line or sounding both tones at Whistle boards (all removed from the book) then I will do. I treat each occasion on merit and if I decide to sound the horn then I will do. It doesn't show a lack of understanding it shows that I am capable of using my brain when presented with a situation. My use of the warning horn has never been called into question and you should never be shy of using it effectively.

 

[Anchorman_02]

Hmmm, well it's a pity you haven't kept up with your rules knowledge. Sounding the horn when passing a train in a station wasn't removed in the last round of changes to the rules surrounding the use of the horn, it was removed years ago.

Rules changes aren't done for the sake of it or to confound the opinion of those that think they know better - they are done for a reason and by people that think carefully about changing them and are highly qualified to do so. The railway is a safer place as a result.

I was taught that the rulebook was basically a list of incidents, if there was a rule, there was a reason for the rule.


If I were protecting a train and had to go through a tunnel, especially one that is not dead straight, I'd want as much noticed as I could possibly get. The sound of a train that has, by that point, already entered the tunnel would be far less good to me than the sound of a train blowing it's horn before entering the tunnel.

Well it might be in that situation but it's academic because they won't be doing it if you are unlucky enough to find yourself in that situation. In any case, you know which line is safe to walk on and you know what to do if a train enters the tunnel or at least you should do.

But it's not just workers in the tunnel, it's also workers at the mouth of the tunnel. When I was a trainee driver, about ten years ago, the rule about blowing horns for tunnels was being removed. About week before the official change of rule, I was at the controls of a train heading south through Balcombe Tunnel. When I blew the horn on approach to the exit, an orange arm appeared at the mouth. Those who know Balcombe Tunnel will know that the banking on either side of the southern end is quite steep, when I left the tunnel I saw three orange men there. On the train back later the signaller called me, on approach to Balcombe station, to warn me that they were there.

After the rule change, I decided that I "deemed it necessary" to use the horn in that situation, because I might not know who is there.

Just for you, p'way are not allowed in a tunnel without a possession so there is no need for you to break the rules any longer. Whether you choose to is down to your professionalism.


Or yours.

Not my opinion, it is the rules.

And if those workmen were around, but you couldn't see them, would you have blown your horn?

Only if they were in view when I started the train, otherwise no. There is a very clear instruction for that very event. If I sight any p'way men I will use both tones of the horn. They should acknowledge and move to a position of safety. If they don't, there are specific instructions on how to proceed and as a belt and braces I will be travelling at a speed that will allow me to stop short of any obstruction. You see the rule makers did think about it! Sounding the horn is pointless if there is nothing to sound it at. It's just a nuisance.

If they are just arriving on site, the signaller might not know they are there when letting a train pass. And if they didn't follow the rules.....

It's their problem. That's a daft comment really.


When the Railway lay a new track through you back garden, you have my sympathy. If you moved in with the track already there, you don't.

Nice.


When I was a trainee, the rule was that you were required to blow the horn if a train was stationary on an adjacent line, I don't know if this is still a rule.