Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

[ainsworth74]

Right well I suppose we'll just have to see if 'Red Ed' is in their back pocket or not then won't we

Also I'm not trying to justify just examining the ideas that are being put forward

I for one am sad to East Coast go but on the other hand I'm excited by what should be delivered by the new franchise. Could East Coast have delivered it? Of course. Would it have been better for DOR and East Coast to do what VTEC are supposed to? I have no idea. Possibly yes but equally possibly not.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Sadly you haven't. You have made a number of statements without any actual evidence. You have made the same statements again above. Have another go......

I have given evidence of my own experiences. The fact is you don't like what I have posted.

I also note that you seem very keen to try to rubbish anyone who doesn't share your opinion. Why is that? Are you unable to debate a point?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! I have given plenty of reasons as to why I favour Virgin Trains and its fleet of Pendolinos. The fact is you have a problem with anyone who enjoys travelling by Virgin, let alone the privatisation process. That is your view point so fair enough. However there is no need to have a hissy fit with other forum members who don't agree with your view point.

 

[WatcherZero]

When did Labour say they'd keep East Coast operated by DOR? I'm asking seriously because everyone appears to be operating under the impression that they would have hence why the Conservatives re-franchised now. I wasn't aware that they had committed to doing that.

They mooted retaining East Coast as a comparator franchise to grade private franchises performance against. They didn't commit to it 100%.

 

[bb21]

There's plenty of examples where different services between two places have the one brand of TOC.

People seem to manage at Edinburgh Waverley/ Haymarket with four different routes to Glasgow in the same ScotRail branding.

Passengers at Liverpool Lime Street have three different routes to Manchester all run by Northern branded trains.

It looks likely that the Transpennine franchise will have two very different Manchester - Hull routes later this decade.

You are not taking into account the fact that no one asks at Edinburgh about the next "ScotRail service", or "Northern service" at Liverpool. People do however use "Virgin service" or similar as a descriptor. I know that because quite a few people around me do that.

You are simply not comparing like with like.

I also did not say that people cannot cope, merely that it can cause confusion and has room for improvement.

 

[WatcherZero]

Back to the franchise win itself, ive not seen anything in the press that wasn't in the original press releases other than the profit margin for the franchise they expect to be 5%(hopefully enough that theres room for poor performance without becoming loss making and defaulting unlike previous operators low margins) and their bid did offer the largest premiums but it was based on aggressively growing passengers and routes hence larger turnover rather than cost cutting or just maintaining the status quo, the East Coast lines modal market share is quite low compared to other intercity lines so there is room for growth.

 

[DarloRich]

I have given evidence of my own experiences. The fact is you don't like what I have posted.

You have suggested only Virgin could "save" or operate the WC so well but cant explain why. Your response was a list of company names then a suggestion that as Northern dont clean trains to your liking they wouldn't be able to run WC.

You have said Virgin offer fantastic customer service. What does that look like? You say you know it when you see it but haven't set that service out.

This week i have traveled on 7 virgin trains across 2 routes. MY ticket has not been checked. I have seen or spoken to precisely none of their staff. Is that good customer service? Every announcement, expect the shop announcement when made has been automated. Is that good customer service?

I travel often from the north west to Milton Keynes on a Saturday evening. My ticket is never checked, even when in first class. Is that good customer service?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! I have given plenty of reasons as to why I favour Virgin Trains and its fleet of Pendolinos. The fact is you have a problem with anyone who enjoys travelling by Virgin, let alone the privatisation process. That is your view point so fair enough. However there is no need to have a hissy fit with other forum members who don't agree with your view point.

Point proven about the rubbishing - i am happy to acknowledge both successes and failures. You wont hear a word said against Virgin. Why is that?

I am a regular traveler with Virgin. I think they offer a good train service. It is frequent, the trains are modern, reliable, technically superb, cleverly engineered and fast. I dont dislike using Virgin.

I am, however, balanced enough to look beyond their spin and understand the benefits they have received from a lot of hard work and investment by others. Are you?

 

[455driver]

I've already given my reasons as to why I feel Virgin are doing in my opinion a very good job of running the WCML franchise. I also compared them to three other TOC's which I either use or have used in the recent past. If I recall correctly it was thenorthern who suggested that only Virgin could have delivered such wonderful performance. Indeed I have already agreed with Deerfold that perhaps thenorthern's suggestion was perhaps a little far fetched.

However, I am concerned that you appear on the face of it to becoming obessed with both myself and the Virgin WCML franchise.

Virgins refusal to allow passengers heading to Euston to board their trains at Milton Keynes despite the fact they stop there anyway (to drop off) and have plenty of room onboard for one thing!
Imagine if First did that with their HSTs at Reading forcing everyone onto the stopping services!

The trains run to shift people, if that is such a problem for Virgin (who want to pick and chose who they carry) then they should be told what to do with their trains.
Most TOCs that share routes will work in the best way for the passengers, Virgin do what is best for their PR machine!

If Virgin were the primary stakeholder on the East Coast (which they are not thankfully) then you can bet that the morning peak up trains would be made set down only at Peterborough (and the evening down trains made set down only) as is the case at Milton Keynes.

 

[MK Tom]

Virgins refusal to allow passengers heading to Euston to board their trains at Milton Keynes despite the fact they stop there anyway (to drop off) and have plenty of room onboard for one thing!
Imagine if First did that with their HSTs at Reading forcing everyone onto the stopping services!

The trains run to shift people, if that is such a problem for Virgin (who want to pick and chose who they carry) then they should be told what to do with their trains.
Most TOCs that share routes will work in the best way for the passengers, Virgin do what is best for their PR machine!

If Virgin were the primary stakeholder on the East Coast (which they are not thankfully) then you can bet that the morning peak up trains would be made set down only at Peterborough (and the evening down trains made set down only) as is the case at Milton Keynes.

As much as I dislike this situation at MK, one does have to accept that London Midland provide a non-stop service to Euston every hour, as well as another with only one stop and another with only two. No comparable ''stopping'' service exists at either Reading or Peterborough.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You have suggested only Virgin could "save" or operate the WC so well but cant explain why. Your response was a list of company names then a suggestion that as Northern dont clean trains to your liking they wouldn't be able to run WC.

You have said Virgin offer fantastic customer service. What does that look like? You say you know it when you see it but haven't set that service out.

This week i have traveled on 7 virgin trains across 2 routes. MY ticket has not been checked. I have seen or spoken to precisely none of their staff. Is that good customer service? Every announcement, expect the shop announcement when made has been automated. Is that good customer service?

I travel often from the north west to Milton Keynes on a Saturday evening. My ticket is never checked, even when in first class. Is that good customer service?

I travel up to Manchester at least twice a month with work and on most occasions my ticket has been checked. Once a month my wife and I travel up to Preston and I can't remember not having my ticket checked. In the times I've used Virgin I cannot recall an incident that had been caused by Virgin or Alsthom. I would suggest that they run their services very well, is that not good customer service? If we've needed to ask them about connections to Blackburn when our service has been running late they have been very helpful. I'm sorry if that wasn't the response that you were looking for.

I don't see why you have a problem with automated announcements. When have you had a problem with the Virgin service that has caused you to need to speak to a member of staff. Or do you just want a good old chin wag?

I never suggested that only Virgin could run the WCML franchise as a success, that was thenorthern. However I did compare them against other TOC's.

Point proven about the rubbishing - i am happy to acknowledge both successes and failures. You wont hear a word said against Virgin. Why is that?

I am a regular traveler with Virgin. I think they offer a good train service, it is frequent, the trains are modern, reliable technically superb, cleverly engineered and fast. I dont dislike using Virgin.

You say that you don't dislike Virgin but in the past have criticised the internal design of the trains. So clearly you do have a problem with the trains. I read with interest your account of your recent travels and seem to be remember that before embarking on your adventure you stated that you wished to avoid using the Pendolino's. If indeed you didn't say that then I stand corrected.

I allegedly won't have a word said against Virgin because I have never had a problem with their service. I think the bias shown against Virgin by some forum members is unfair, when in fact their dislike is in reality targeted towards the owners rather than the franchise.

 

[455driver]

As much as I dislike this situation at MK, one does have to accept that London Midland provide a non-stop service to Euston every hour, as well as another with only one stop and another with only two. No comparable ''stopping'' service exists at either Reading or Peterborough.

The Cheltenhams, Bristols etc could be classed as stoppers with the Cardiffs, Swanseas and South West services being made pick up only to ease overcrowding on these services.

At Milton Keynes the extra capacity that Virgin could provide would go a long way to ease the load off LM but Virgin choose to ignore LMs problems to suit their PR machine, I mean we cant have the great MKC unwashed infecting Virgins superior passengers can we!
Can you come up with a legitimate reason for Virgin not to pick up during the morning peak at MKC, they pick up Euston bound later on in the day when its not really needed?
Oh and an ORCATs raid is not a legitimate reason!

 

[DarloRich]

I travel up to Manchester at least twice a month with work and on most occasions my ticket has been checked. Once a month my wife and I travel up to Preston and I can't remember not having my ticket checked.

but that is my point - both views are subjective. If you asked me next week i might have had 5 or 6 ticket checks.

In the times I've used Virgin I cannot recall an incident that had been caused by Virgin or Alsthom. I would suggest that they run their services very well, is that not good customer service?

they are good at passing on the blame. The reality isn't always quite how they make out.

I don't see why you have a problem with automated announcements. When have you had a problem with the Virgin service that has caused you to need to speak to a member of staff. Or do you just want a good old chin wag?

I dont have a problem per se with automated announcements but to me a real voice is much more welcoming. Is that not good service? Again all subjective.

I never suggested that only Virgin could run the WCML franchise as a success, that was thenorthern. However I did compare them against other TOC's.

You did, i think suggest that. However you have helpfully clarified your position.

You say that you don't dislike Virgin but in the past have criticised the internal design of the trains. So clearly you do have a problem with the trains. I read with interest your account of your recent travels and seem to be remember that before embarking on your adventure you stated that you wished to avoid using the Pendolino's. If indeed you didn't say that then I stand corrected.

I dont like their interior design. I think it was lazy and rushed and not as good as it should have been. A little thought could have made a much better environment for the passenger. For instance the lighting and decor could have been coloured differently.

And i didn't want to travel often by Virgin on my rover mainly because i spend so much time on them, though both work and leisure travel. i dont own a car so go everywhere by train. I didn't fancy a total busmans holiday

I allegedly won't have a word said against Virgin because I have never had a problem with their service. I think the bias shown against Virgin by some forum members is unfair, when in fact their dislike is in reality targeted towards the owners rather than the franchise.

You have never had a cancelled train, or a broken down train or a train terminated early? You have been lucky. Can you let me know your itinerary for the next moth

I am not biased against them (i wouldn't use their trains as often as i do! This week. Birmingham and back, a Crewe and back, to Coventry and Manchester and back) I would just prefer a more "equal" reporting of the situation.

Anyway - In the spirit of reconciliation lets us agree to shake hands and move on.

 

[455driver]

I allegedly won't have a word said against Virgin because I have never had a problem with their service. I think the bias shown against Virgin by some forum members is unfair, when in fact their dislike is in reality targeted towards the owners rather than the franchise.

maybe if Virgin shared the load with LM people who can see past the PR wouldnt get on their backs, their services are usually comfortably loaded because they wont let certain people on (the afore mentioned PU only at MKC for one) meaning those passengers have to catch other services (LM) causing them to be crush loaded!
LM could improve the environment on a lot of their trains by making them PU only at MKC as well but where would the passengers go then?
Its all well and good doing Virgins trick to leave passengers behind (and their PR machine will always turn it into a positive for all) but the passengers forced to stand on the LM service as a result might disagree with you!

 

[RichmondCommu]

but that is my point - both views are subjective. If you asked me next week i might have had 5 or 6 ticket checks.



they are good at passing on the blame. The reality isn't always quite how they make out.



I dont have a problem per se with automated announcements but to me a real voice is much more welcoming. Is that not good service? Again all subjective.



You did, i think suggest that. However you have helpfully clarified your position.



I dont like their interior design. I think it was lazy and rushed and not as good as it should have been. A little thought could have made a much better environment for the passenger. For instance the lighting and decor could have been coloured differently.

And i didn't want to travel often by Virgin on my rover mainly because i spend so much time on them, though both work and leisure travel. i dont own a car so go everywhere by train. I didn't fancy a total busmans holiday



You have never had a cancelled train, or a broken down train or a train terminated early? You have been lucky. Can you let me know your itinerary for the next moth

I am not biased against them (i wouldn't use their trains as often as i do! This week. Birmingham and back, a Crewe and back, to Coventry and Manchester and back) I would just prefer a more "equal" reporting of the situation.

Anyway - In the spirit of reconciliation lets us agree to shake hands and move on.

I tell you what; good luck for Darlo tomorrow who ever you are playing! We (the Rams) are away at Leeds. If my children can be bothered to scrape themselves out of their pits in Nottingham, Cambridge and Whitehaven (not joking) I'll shall see them there. I'm afraid they have turned into posh kids but they love Derby as much as I do.

I'll look out for your result and hope you get a win. I remember watching your lot play at Fulham in the mid 1990's. I can't remember the score but the Cottage was certainly nothing like it is today. Fair play DarloRich.

 

[The Ham]

maybe if Virgin shared the load with LM people who can see past the PR wouldnt get on their backs, their services are usually comfortably loaded because they wont let certain people on (the afore mentioned PU only at MKC for one) meaning those passengers have to catch other services (LM) causing them to be crush loaded!
LM could improve the environment on a lot of their trains by making them PU only at MKC as well but where would the passengers go then?
Its all well and good doing Virgins trick to leave passengers behind (and their PR machine will always turn it into a positive for all) but the passengers forced to stand on the LM service as a result might disagree with you!

Given the "image" of Virgin amongst many people how well loaded do you think that their trains would be if they picked up from MK? Do you really think that everyone will carry on using the LM trains.

Of course it depends on when the Virgin Train service runs. A few minutes after the non stop LM service and it wouldn't matter. 15 minutes after the fast service and it would likely be rammed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, there is a big difference between MK and Reading. In that at present there is very little in the way of people changing at MK compared to Reading. It is better to stop all services at Reading rather than have lots of passengers travelling into London to then head back out again. (Aside from the fact that MK has 90k less people living there).

Do I think that MK could benefit from a better service, yes. Do I think that saying it should have the same level of service as somewhere else with very different circumstances just because it works well there, no.

 

[Hellfire]

Totally agree. In my opinion a disgrace that there was zero reporting from the BBC on prime time news slots for one of Britains most lucrative rail franchises.

But the BBC was reporting it all day. It received prominent coverage on the BBC website, plenty of links to it on this thread, and across the BBC News Channel.

Just because you didn't see it on the half hour bulletin you watched doesn't mean it wasn't covered in some depth.

In any case, I would suggest that the vast majority of the travelling public couldn't care less what name is on the side of their train. They just want it to turn up on time and offer a seat.

 

[Deerfold]

I think all the dogma centres around the retention of railways under government control not the other way around. Anyone with experience of the railways under BR will know why nationalisation is a bad idea.

Nope. I caught trains every weekday and some weekends from 1985 to 1992. My experience was of a line where the frequency went from 1tph (plus a couple of extra peak services) to 4tph for most of the day with reliability improving massively on the line (which then went downhill for several years after privatisation to the point where I mostly caught the bus for a couple of years).

I appreciate that not everyone had such a good experience but you seem to be spouting drivel again by claiming to speak for everyone.

 

[Masboroughlad]

It was the overheads and waste that needed sorting out for BR. There is no reason why thus couldn't have been done under a state run company.

 

[Hellfire]

There are those who hold the view that railways in this country should be nationalised. There are those who hold the opposing view that railways are better off run by the private sector.

There are good arguments on both sides but neither holds a monopoly on being right.

There are good TOCs and bad TOCs and I suggest that views on that are very much a matter of personal preference.

If it had not been for private enterprise and private companies we may never have had a rail system at all. It wasn't the government who built the GWR, LMS and all the other lines.

The railways have actually only been state owned for 45 years of the 210 years since Trevithick ran his first locomotive hauled train. That's not counting the war years when special conditions applied.

Personally I don't care who runs the railways as long as they run properly. However I am convinced of three things.

1) The present franchising system is broke and the DfT seems incapable of putting it right
2) It is an absolute nonsense that foreign state owned companies can bid to run our railways but a British state controlled organisation cannot.
3) The system whereby one company runs the trains, another runs the infrastructure and yet a third owns the rolling stock is wasteful and inefficient. (That's not an argument for nationalisation)

I would like to see DOR maintained as a body and be allowed to compete for franchises in the future. If it proves it can successfully run them then that's healthy competition for the private sector. But it should be a level playing field.

And, I use VT a lot and I like their customer service ethos and their trains

 

[northwichcat]

I think if East Coast were to be branded as such, it can cause confusion if West Coast were not suitably rebranded.

Imagine someone asking, "When will the next Virgin service to London be"? Most passengers will likely refer to both as Virgin Trains, whether "East Coast" is appended to the end or not. While East Coast can be easily identified, how do you identify a West Coast service to an average punter without making that explicit?

Maybe something like:

EAST COAST TRAINS
a Virgin Group venture

?

To get the Virgin name in there but to not use the same branding as Virgin Trains with the company structure being different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe something like:

EAST COAST TRAINS
a Virgin Group venture

?

To get the Virgin name in there but to not use the same branding as Virgin Trains with the company structure being different.

You rather miss the point. With such a low stake, it's pretty much certain that Virgin is only involved for the branding. So it getting any sort of Stagecoach branding, unless Virgin withdraw, is infinitessimally unlikely.

Neil

 

[thenorthern]

If I recall correctly it was thenorthern who suggested that only Virgin could have delivered such wonderful performance. Indeed I have already agreed with Deerfold that perhaps thenorthern's suggestion was perhaps a little far fetched.

I never suggested that only Virgin Trains could deliver a wonderful performance, I said that I thought that Virgin Trains delivered improvements that I didn't think any other company would have done such as I doubt there would be tilting trains now if it wasn't for Virgin and I wouldn't be surprised if the Class 90s were still used if another operator had that franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgins refusal to allow passengers heading to Euston to board their trains at Milton Keynes despite the fact they stop there anyway (to drop off) and have plenty of room onboard for one thing!
Imagine if First did that with their HSTs at Reading forcing everyone onto the stopping services!

The difference is that MKC has pretty quick stopping services. While I expect Crossrail would put the kibosh on it as it will operate a high frequency stopping service (though because of the lack of a need to change to get much closer to the city some may well transfer to it anyway in the manner of Thameslink at Bedford), one way to solve GW peak overcrowding would be to do exactly that and run 12-car 3+2 seated EMUs every 20 minutes non-stop Reading-Paddington (or Reading-Slough-Paddington) and thus provide enough capacity for these commuters.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to run long IC trains out to places like Penzance if they are half-empty after stopping at Reading.

Of course IEP might help with this - you could run two long-distance 5-car services together and split them further down the line with u/s at Reading, then run a dedicated Reading commuter service in the freed-up path. The inability to couple two HSTs in service has limited this option so far - but IMO it makes absolute sense.

If Virgin were the primary stakeholder on the East Coast (which they are not thankfully) then you can bet that the morning peak up trains would be made set down only at Peterborough (and the evening down trains made set down only) as is the case at Milton Keynes.

If it is causing an overcrowding problem and the capacity and speed can be provided on the commuter services, why not?

Neil

 

[lincolnshire]

I never suggested that only Virgin Trains could deliver a wonderful performance, I said that I thought that Virgin Trains delivered improvements that I didn't think any other company would have done such as I doubt there would be tilting trains now if it wasn't for Virgin and I wouldn't be surprised if the Class 90s were still used if another operator had that franchise.

But doesn,t the rolling stock and its specifications in this case tilting trains go with the franchise when its awarded? So if the plan was to buy tilting trains for the West Coast franchise then who ever got it would get tilting trains reguardless of what colour and what name they had on the side of them.

As wasn,t that why B.R. developed the tilting train concept to run on the West Coast main line? the only reason it was not a sucess was the lack of investment from the B.R. Board who only had one pot of money to play with as against been able to borrow money or go into a financial partnership with other train building companies etc to raise the funding to complete the project.

Who ever eventually gets the West Coast franchise also gets the trains don,t they? or are we going to find a big shed to put them all in and get out a load of old coaches and electric engines to run the service on the franchise when its re-let?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But doesn,t the rolling stock and its specifications in this case tilting trains go with the franchise when its awarded? So if the plan was to buy tilting trains for the West Coast franchise then who ever got it would get tilting trains reguardless of what colour and what name they had on the side of them.

It does now. But back in the days of the first round of franchising, which trains were used was part of the bid. I don't remember what other WCML bids there were, but I doubt all of them chose Pendolinos and Voyagers.

Who ever eventually gets the West Coast franchise also gets the trains don,t they? or are we going to find a big shed to put them all in and get out a load of old coaches and electric engines to run the service on the franchise when its re-let?

Now they've been built, yes. But in the late 1990s they hadn't been built yet.

Neil

 

[Darandio]

But doesn,t the rolling stock and its specifications in this case tilting trains go with the franchise when its awarded? So if the plan was to buy tilting trains for the West Coast franchise then who ever got it would get tilting trains reguardless of what colour and what name they had on the side of them.

Not at all.

Virgin won the franchise, bought the tilting technology back from the Italians then designed, built and paid for the trains themselves. They then paid (out of their own pocket) for around £9bn of infrastructure upgrades in an effort to utilise their 140mph top speed.

How would you not know this?

 

[Stats]

I never suggested that only Virgin Trains could deliver a wonderful performance, I said that I thought that Virgin Trains delivered improvements that I didn't think any other company would have done such as I doubt there would be tilting trains now if it wasn't for Virgin and I wouldn't be surprised if the Class 90s were still used if another operator had that franchise.

The modernisation plan for the West Coast mainline agreed in 1996 before it was franchised committed Railtrack to upgrade the infrastructure to allow successful bidders for the ICWC to run tilting trains at 125mph running by 2002 and an option to run tiliting trains was required to be presented as part of the franchise bid.

http://www.lgcplus.com/investment-promises-reduced-journey-times-for-west-coast/1536081.article

The ICWC Information Memorandum invites pre-qualified bidders to submit bids for an unconditional 15 year franchise term for each of two options - tilting trains and conventional rolling stock. The ICWC franchise was introduced to the market on 11 June 1996. There were fourteen applications to the Franchising Director's invitation to pre-qualify to bid. The target date for the award of the franchise to a private operator is March 1997. Bidders are expected to make an initial presentation of their proposals to OPRAF by mid-November 1996.

 

[thenorthern]

Who ever eventually gets the West Coast franchise also gets the trains don,t they? or are we going to find a big shed to put them all in and get out a load of old coaches and electric engines to run the service on the franchise when its re-let?

I have heard people say that so many times about when Virgin Trains lost the franchise in 2012 how Virgin wouldn't let anyone else use their trains.

If First had taken over in 2012 I have no doubt they would be running the Pendolinos that are on the WCML now.

 

[Darandio]

If First had taken over in 2012 I have no doubt they would be running the Pendolinos that are on the WCML now.

Of course, they aren't owned by Virgin and never have been.

The issue for many is that Virgin would like you to think otherwise...

 

[Andyh82]

Is there anything stopping some of these service improvements starting next year rather than 2018?

For example the 0640 & 0715 from Leeds run off depot to start these, one or both of these could easily start these back at Bradford, Huddersfield, Harrogate etc assuming paths existed, which they probably do at that time of the morning.

Obviously a rejig of diesel and electric diagrams might be needed if both those are electric services.

 

[thenorthern]

The issue for many is that Virgin would like you to think otherwise...

The amount of people who think that companies who operate one franchise will use the same type of stock if they win another franchise such as Arriva were going to use Sprinters and Pacers on CrossCountry from 2007 because they do on Arriva Train Wales.

I wonder what people would have though if Serco-Abellio had bid and won the West Coast Franchise.