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ECML Disruption - Saturday 27th December

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causton

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When I was in the area there was a big problem with EC terminating at SVG, or waiting there for a long time and blocking both southbound platforms. There were 2 EC trains there for over 20 minutes from what I could see, stuck behind at Hitchin with another 2 EC trains and 2 GN trains and the HT 180 I was on...
 
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amcluesent

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The old ways are the best!

244CD99400000578-0-image-a-36_1419785879756.jpg
 
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carriageline

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How do you think S&T manage to find large numbers of staff when a big failure occurs in the middle of the night?


I have never heard of that, or even experienced it...

And "large numbers"? Most of the hands on staff won't be on call, as generally they are working the next day, or just finished :lol:

Okay you gave the level 1,2,3 on calls but not really any maintenance staff. Unfortunately, we don't have 15 S&T members on call every night. Infact, most areas probably don't even have 15 collectively
 

Robertj21a

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When on call you are "sitting around" or asleep at home and you do not get paid wages for this. You get paid an on call allowance (say £25 a week) plus the monthly line rental of your telephone. If called in, then you get paid your hourly overtime rate for the hours you work. Agreeing to be "on call" is part of your terms and conditions of employment and you have no choice. Typically you will be on call one week in two, three or four and while on call you have to be at or reasonably near home, contactable and abstain from all alcohol.

Its standard practice throughout the engineering side of the railway, including both technicians and management (except the management are often expected to do it without extra renumeration). Its also standard practice in many other industries such as the NHS - almost certainly many of the engineering staff who spent yesterday trying to put the track out of Kings Cross back together would have been on call and called out and had no choice other than to give up their Christmas break and attend.

On call dosen't appear to be standard practice for train crews and station staff, nor for the bus drivers that they hire when it all goes wrong.


The bus drivers were ready and available - but nobody called for them.
 

carriageline

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This wont happen with introduction of ROC's. Or so Network Rail Management think. Time for heads to roll in Ivory Towers? They would be in any other company.


I'm sorry, but that's the typical attitude against ROCs... A ROC has completely nothing to do with what happened at KX, as the issue was overrunning engineering works and passenger numbers at Finsbury work.

Useless rant!
 

Tomnick

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The old ways are the best!

244CD99400000578-0-image-a-36_1419785879756.jpg
Ah yes, taken from another predictably outraged Daily Mail rant which tried to suggest that trains were being "led" by men with flags because of a signal failure. It was actually planned Single Line Working (as already discussed at length), but why let the facts get in the way?!
 

Crossover

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£25 / week plus the cost of their phone line rental seems very little in return for giving up the freedom to do what they choose in their personal time

I work in IT, and provide on-call support. For this, we are paid:
* £25 per weeknight
* £40 per weekend night (if before and/or after midnight is at the weekend, so includes Fri, Sat and Sun nights)
* £40 per weekend day
* £80 per bank hol night (if before and/or after midnight is on a BH).
* £80 per BH day

This comes to £300 for a week without Bank Hols, and £610 for a week where Christmas Day falls on a Thursday.

I have compared the rates with other IT jobs, and ours are not over-generous; so if the railway industry expects people to be very restricted in what they do outside of working hours for £25 per week, then that is very harsh.

Jeez - I will bear this in mind in case I ever have to start on call work (which could happen with current changes that seem to be happening)

When I was on work placement for uni in IT, when I went on call (which consisted of 1 week in every 5 or 6, on for the full week out of office hours (8am-5pm Mon to Fri) to give 24/7 coverage) I got an extra £1k on the salary - something of a pittance it would seem!
 

EM2

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Unfortunately, we don't have 15 S&T members on call every night. Infact, most areas probably don't even have 15 collectively
When I started out in S&T a good few years ago, I'm pretty sure our depot roster was just 15, plus a manager. And that all covered three shifts, with three staff on rest days at any one time.
 

carriageline

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When I started out in S&T a good few years ago, I'm pretty sure our depot roster was just 15, plus a manager. And that all covered three shifts, with three staff on rest days at any one time.


Sorry, bad wording on my behalf. I was meant to say I bet SOME areas don't even have 15 members of staff, nevermind on call.

Either way, I was merely proving there isn't "loads of staff" on call at any time Of the night
 

Crossover

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Anyway - back to the thread. I was on the first of the two Hull Trains diverts today (I don't believe either of the KGX services made it today - one failing at Newark and the other been cancelled) - journey down was busy but a number of spare seats, certainly in Coach C. Sailing past the train jam was great - we passed a HST (which had been sat next to us at Doncaster), a 225 set and a 365 all sat in a procession on the Up Fast. Within less than half an hour, we had gone from 10 mins down at Ally Pally to 5 early at West Hampstead Thameslink (this was after confusing a few EC passengers who seemed to note we were on the Up Slow, to their left one minute, and appeared on the Down, to their right, a few mins later!). A fast turnaround at WHP meant we arrived 12 minutes early at St Pancras (and beat aforementioned HST by about 25 minutes into London!)

The return working was even quieter - I was in First Class and there was a number of free seats and Coach E reportedly had about 3 people in after leaving Retford. We got held as we waited for a path across the Overground lines, but again had a clean run approaching (and getting held) outside Stevenage to be regulated from 2 early to RT. The train jam was still little better even by this time
 

EM2

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Sorry, bad wording on my behalf. I was meant to say I bet SOME areas don't even have 15 members of staff, nevermind on call.

Either way, I was merely proving there isn't "loads of staff" on call at any time Of the night
Oh no, I agree! We were a decent-sized depot with a large patch, there's no way we'd have been able to rustle up those sort of numbers at short notice.
 

Crossover

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Oh, and possibly one of my favourite pictures of the year - the irony is wonderful!
 

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causton

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Anyway - back to the thread. I was on the first of the two Hull Trains diverts today (I don't believe either of the KGX services made it today - one failing at Newark and the other been cancelled) - journey down was busy but a number of spare seats, certainly in Coach C. Sailing past the train jam was great - we passed a HST (which had been sat next to us at Doncaster), a 225 set and a 365 all sat in a procession on the Up Fast. Within less than half an hour, we had gone from 10 mins down at Ally Pally to 5 early at West Hampstead Thameslink (this was after confusing a few EC passengers who seemed to note we were on the Up Slow, to their left one minute, and appeared on the Down, to their right, a few mins later!). A fast turnaround at WHP meant we arrived 12 minutes early at St Pancras (and beat aforementioned HST by about 25 minutes into London!)

The return working was even quieter - I was in First Class and there was a number of free seats and Coach E reportedly had about 3 people in after leaving Retford. We got held as we waited for a path across the Overground lines, but again had a clean run approaching (and getting held) outside Stevenage to be regulated from 2 early to RT. The train jam was still little better even by this time

Sounds like I should have gone today, and stayed at home yesterday if it was that quiet! :( think yesterday scared everyone off!
 

Crossover

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Sounds like I should have gone today, and stayed at home yesterday if it was that quiet! :( think yesterday scared everyone off!

It was very enjoyable and First Class was very rateable too. Probably the best Weekend First offering available on any TOC!
Whether (so I was told) the MD of Hull Trains travelling with us had anything to do with it, I wouldn't know...)

For anyone interested
1110 Hull - St Pancras was the Up service we used (the guard had to think twice, nearly announcing just "Kings Cross")
1505 St Pancras - Hull was the return (At St Pancras, "Platform 2 for the East Mid.....Hull Trains service....." was also heard!)
 

infobleep

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Currently discussing what happened and what should change on LBC.

One caller, Chris, an engineering contractor, who works on rail infrastructure projects, is saying Network Rail are just putting sticky plasters over sticky plasters, given the age of our railways and people should have a better service than this.

Nicolas Soams said earlier on LBC that some senior managers in Network Rail should be sacked. As a politician he would say that of course.
 

NotATrainspott

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Clearly a bad day for the railways, and clearly we will now have to endure the deep irony of politicians of various parties on TV pontificating about the railways they have done nothing but screw up or "re-organise" over the last 25 years !

But somehow I feel we are all missing the point. Surely the real issue here is that there is no proper terminus station to run these trains into. When you look at the maps north of Gare du Nord, or various other European Termini, there are masses of lines running in and out of those stations.

I'm speaking not as an expert, clearly, but surely there is some argument for building the capacity to run these major termini in a sort of A/B format, so that if the A Lines are down for whatever reason, accident, engineering work, power failure, train failure, the B lines can still run and operate some level of service. By that I mean separate everything, Signalling, Power, the lot. Such systems are quite common in various industries where overall failure isn't an option. And clearly, you'd never attempt engineering work on both segments at the same time !

Or if not, building small links to at least allow a Southbound train or two to terminate in St Pancras, or Liverpool Street, (and the same links for the other main termini to deal with issues at any of the other lines.) A kind of Orbirail I guess, but with a North and South spur to each of the great main lines.

In other words, just shouting at a contractor and promising it's all fixed now doesn't do anything to improve the long term resilience of the overall system. That's what needs addressed.

The rail network has been forced to work more and more efficiently, running more services than ever before on less infrastructure than ever before, in an attempt to make it in some way able to pay its way as an individual business rather than a necessary component of the UK national infrastructure. This might be wonderful when it all works but when it doesn't, things collapse as they have done over the past few days. Funding the sort of infrastructure necessary to keep services resilient for when things go wrong is expensive and it is unlikely to ever pass a normal business case assessment. If Network Rail wants to build in the capability to run emergency services from a different London terminus than normal there would need to be a business case to run these services everyday, and once they exist as an everyday concern their value as an emergency backup diminishes as they then have to deal with their normal passengers on top of the disrupted ones.
 

infobleep

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The head of Network Rail is retiring early next year with a golden goodbye according to LBC. I'm sure many journalists will be outraged on behalf of their readers/listeners and/or viewers.
 

jon0844

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I think we need to know what went wrong before we can conclude what could, or couldn't, have been done.

If it was a failure of special equipment, with no spares, then perhaps a 'plan b' with the required funding for staff etc would have been a better idea than if something totally unexpected, but normally totally manageable, had occurred when you could - perhaps - just say it was bad luck.

Hearing staff at Finsbury Park moaning to control (or whoever they were talking to) about the poor information and incorrect screens - and that it was happening time and time again (and also quite telling, that trains were regularly shown out of sequence on a Sunday), and so on did show that there was - as usual - bad planning somewhere and some of it might be happening regularly.

Even after a full day of chaos, there were still many issues today. The only reason they weren't so bad was perhaps because there were so few people travelling (but I do still wonder about the post football demand at FPK when a sizeable number of Spurs fans would be heading home) - oh and that the press had done their story and moved on to something else.

GTR had no shortage of staff out though, including teams of uniformed and plain clothed RPIs, but I don't think they were doing revenue duties - just extra bodies on the ground. Possibly the ones out of uniform weren't even on duty but just came to help. And a lot of the staff (wearing FCC uniforms, hats etc) also wore 'Train Presentation' hi-vis and were indeed cleaning trains before they started off, which was good.
 
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Crossover

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Even after a full day of chaos, there were still many issues today. The only reason they weren't so bad was perhaps because there were so few people travelling (but I do still wonder about the post football demand at FPK when a sizeable number of Spurs fans would be heading home) - oh and that the press had done their story and moved on to something else.

The simple fact that they didn't have to detrain all and sundry at FPK today probably helped somewhat
 
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jon0844

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The simple fact that they didn't have to detrain all and sundry at FPK today probably helped somewhat

Yes, but a fair few GN services were still ending and starting to FPK. Probably quite a few people were coming by tube, which is what I did - albeit from Tottenham Hale.

The most noticeable thing was that people didn't seem fussed. There were trains turning up. Often not the one on the board, and often changing platform (most of the trains from Moorgate kept saying they'd be platform 7 and then changed to 8 on approach, which is what I'd always expect them at) but the staff kept everyone informed.

And, obviously, platform 7 to 8 isn't a big deal in terms of platform changes.
 

Crossover

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Yes, but a fair few GN services were still ending and starting to FPK. Probably quite a few people were coming by tube, which is what I did - albeit from Tottenham Hale.

The most noticeable thing was that people didn't seem fussed. There were trains turning up. Often not the one on the board, and often changing platform (most of the trains from Moorgate kept saying they'd be platform 7 and then changed to 8 on approach, which is what I'd always expect them at) but the staff kept everyone informed.

And, obviously, platform 7 to 8 isn't a big deal in terms of platform changes.

Maybe people were a little more prepared today, expected the worst after the media storm yesterday and actually found things weren't so bad in the end
 

jon0844

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I expect most people didn't travel unless they had to. So no leisure trips into London, for example.

My train, which was just 4 cars, was pretty empty. Possibly one person for every 10 seats. I had 6 to myself!

But I am not sure the football fans would be anywhere near as forgiving, so I hope the signalling problems that were causing delays was fixed an hour or two after I left. I haven't bothered to check RTT or similar to see how it panned out.
 

Crossover

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I expect most people didn't travel unless they had to. So no leisure trips into London, for example.

My train, which was just 4 cars, was pretty empty. Possibly one person for every 10 seats. I had 6 to myself!

But I am not sure the football fans would be anywhere near as forgiving, so I hope the signalling problems that were causing delays was fixed an hour or two after I left. I haven't bothered to check RTT or similar to see how it panned out.

I heard that the signalling problems had been fixed at around 16:00, just after we had come off the GOBLIN, although I'm not quite sure of what the signalling problems actually amounted to!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The head of Network Rail is retiring early next year with a golden goodbye according to LBC. I'm sure many journalists will be outraged on behalf of their readers/listeners and/or viewers.

That would be Robin Gisby, Managing Director of Network Operations (ie he runs the day-to-day railway), and as far as I can see is a seriously good guy.
He was the one who sorted out the shambles at Rugby in 2007/8.
He is being replaced in the new year by Phil Hufton, currently COO of London Underground.
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...anaging-director-network-operations-215c.aspx
 

The Planner

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Gisby isnt the head of NR, Mark Carne is. As said above, he is a good bloke and knows his stuff and he announced he was leaving months ago.
 
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