• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ECML Disruption - Saturday 27th December

Status
Not open for further replies.

Aldaniti

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2009
Messages
668
The above does prove that Sir Richard knew the value of good PR (just like carrying passengers on his trains during disruption elsewhere, or when the airlines suffered from the ash cloud etc).

Of course, the situation at Grayrigg was rather more in favour of Virgin in that it was soon apparent that the train hadn't been speeding, and it was merely a victim of poor maintenance. Far easier to manage PR in those situations.

I can't remember what the press release from Network Rail at the time was though, as that's perhaps more relevant.

In the incident over the weekend had happened this time next year, we would of course have seen how Virgin played it - even though Virgin (okay, Stagecoach) might have actually had questions to answer this time around.

Mind you, would anyone dare ask those questions to Mr Branson? Would he be grilled in the same way as Network Rail? Would any paper want to risk falling out with Virgin and run the risk of not be invited to V Festival next year, and get to sit amongst the celebs in the Louder Lounge? ;)

Some fair points, I agree that the two situations are quite different - and that the media give Branson a relatively easy ride - but you get my underlying point. PR is everything these days, like it or not, and Carne and Network Rail have failed miserably. It so frustrating, I just wanted to get hold of Carne, put him in an orange hi-vis, plonk him on the concourse at King's Cross (with appropriate engineering work in the background) and force him to take the media for a guided tour followed by suitable refreshment. This sort of thing is so, so easy but for some it is just too difficult, which brings me right back to Carne's leadership ability.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Ploughman

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
2,996
Location
Near where the 3 ridings meet
Can anyone on here imagine the hassle being directed towards the bodies tasked with being the Engineering Supervisors on these works.

The phone calls and visits from management / Network bosses must be sending them crazy.
I know what it was like when I did that type of role and we looked as if we might overrun by a few minutes.
The phone never stopped with people asking for updates.
 

Red Dragon

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2010
Messages
423
Location
Teddington
I don't get an on-call allowance or indeed O/T on my grade but would certainly go in and sort out time in lieu etc. later. Isn't that part of and parcel of being a professional engineer?

Good Point - I think your point, which was good, was misinterpreted or misunderstood by many re the use of the term "Professional".
Hence the responses !
Regards
Red Dragon
Aka an old FICE of Great George Street, and other places !
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,127
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Well spotted, and very interesting to see what is said about/happens to Dr Francis Paonessa.
A name to put in the MR section of my brain cell !

Residents of Shropshire would be interested to find that they now live in Wales... http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2014/dec/statement-from-network-rail/
Wales
A bridge was replaced a bridge over the River Teme on the line between Hereford and Shrewsbury

To confuse matters, in NR-speak the Marches line is part of the "Wales" route.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,491
Location
UK
Can we leave 7/7 out of this as it really isn't relevant.

Maybe if the events of the last few days were due to outside factors (ie exceptionally bad weather) passengers may be a bit more understanding but can you really imagine anyone from the rail industry or a politician coming on TV and suggesting passengers adopt a Dunkirk spirit and just be grateful if they got to their destination eventually?

No. I was just saying things as I believed them to be, and has been confirmed by someone on one of the trains.

And why do you have a problem with people mentioning 7/7? Most people know on here how close I was to being blown up on a bus (a matter of two buses in front, also on a diverted bus) and I don't feel it in any way inappropriate as I wasn't comparing the incident itself, but rather the chaos caused by it.

For all intents and purposes, the disruption at King's Cross was VERY similar. Neither incident was planned, although you could argue that one (or maybe even both) could have been prevented - but they weren't, which is all that matters here.
 

Monarch010

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2013
Messages
87
Does the ORR not audit the procedures of NR and the TOCs to ensure that their planning and mitigation plans are adequate in case of overruns and cock-ups?
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,425
Does the ORR not audit the procedures of NR and the TOCs to ensure that their planning and mitigation plans are adequate in case of overruns and cock-ups?

There is an auditing process within NR as used for Ipswich Yard Project whether or not it was entirely successful is another matter.
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
4,333
The head of an organisation needs not only to have an overview of operations, but also needs to demonstrate leadership and motivational skills. These engineering overruns - with all the subsequent chaos - seem to happen almost every year at Christmas, so you would expect there to be some contingency. I don't know whether Network Rail had any contingency plans in place, but they should have at least expected the media reaction, ill-informed or not. Mark Carne should have made his way to London on Saturday or Sunday. There is probably little else he could have done, but it would have demonstrated to passengers, the media, it's viewers and readers, that he was in control. He could have explained the problem (many people are sympathetic when they find out what has happened, whoever is at fault, but even now there is still ambiguity). He could have re-assured passengers that action was being taken, and motivated rail staff by demonstrating his control and leadership skills whilst thanking them for doing a difficult job. It might well have taken the sting out of the media reaction. However, he failed to do so, preferring to stay in Cornwall. That is like a red flag to a bull to the media, particularly where the perception is that the head of an organisation is taking a holiday whilst Rome burns. He should have pre-emptied that, and taken the sting out of the subsequent backlash. He didn't and the negative headlines on the rail industry are now being written accordingly. I'm not going to call for anyone's head, but I have to say that Carne's failure to foresee and to lead from the front is not what I would expect from a Chief Executive of Network Rail currently commanding a salary of £675,000 pa.
From working in the NHS I know that the usual way that major organisations arrange contingencies for urgent issues over Christmas and New Year is to have a designated on-call director, which in this case appears to have bern Robin Gisby. They will usually have authority to take decisions across directorates as required. Given that arrangements such as this appear to have been in place, what advantage would there have been in bringing in the Chief Executive? These very arrangements are meant to cover situations such as these. Anyway, the problems that occurred were primarily to do with the TOCs response, not with Network Rail.
 

matacaster

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2013
Messages
1,645
Location
Huddersfield
If the piece of kit is well maintained, the probability will be a very low figure, the impact figure will only be very high figure if the failure means the entire job comes to a standstill and there is no workaround e.g. the hydraulic jacks pushing a new bridge span across the tracks fail completely, now there's a failure you don't want - hundreds of tons of steel dangling across a mainline and no way to pull it back until they are fixed!

If, as has been suggested, it was a crane causing the delay, and there are only 5 such cranes in the country and all are in use at the same time, the cost of the mitigation / contingency plan is so great that you have 2 choices:
1) Don't to the work at all or,
2) Do the work and keep your fingers crossed, when it goes wrong you deal with it as best you can.

The former is not an option, although different ways of doing the work could be looked at. Perhaps a non-Christmas closure and accept the costs of that?

The latter seems naïve but lots of jobs outside railways seem to work on that basis. Many times everything works out fine so you build up an aura of confidence / self-belief or whatever - it hasn't happened in the past, why spend all that money on something that isn't going to happen. Especially if budgets are tight and you are looking to cut costs.



If the piece of kit is well maintained, the probability will be a very low figure, the impact figure will only be very high figure if the failure means the entire job comes to a standstill and there is no workaround e.g. the hydraulic jacks pushing a new bridge span across the tracks fail completely, now there's a failure you don't want - hundreds of tons of steel dangling across a mainline and no way to pull it back until they are fixed!

If, as has been suggested, it was a crane causing the delay, and there are only 5 such cranes in the country and all are in use at the same time, the cost of the mitigation / contingency plan is so great that you have 2 choices:
1) Don't to the work at all or,
2) Do the work and keep your fingers crossed, when it goes wrong you deal with it as best you can.

The former is not an option, although different ways of doing the work could be looked at. Perhaps a non-Christmas closure and accept the costs of that?

The latter seems naïve but lots of jobs outside railways seem to work on that basis. Many times everything works out fine so you build up an aura of confidence / self-belief or whatever - it hasn't happened in the past, why spend all that money on something that isn't going to happen. Especially if budgets are tight and you are looking to cut costs.

**********

I agree with what you say above. An additional problem is the way that successful project delivery may be influenced unduly by the various parties involved. My (extremely simplified) view is as follows

If I look at costs and timescales for job x from different mythical perspectives

1. Transport Secretary - He's got 5 years max before an election, where he
could lose his seat. Voters most important, particularly if those
affected are mainly from his party. The treasury is normally rather
keen on capital projects that carry big numbers as long as it at least
looks like someone has made a decent effort to cost the job and justify
the benefits. Politicians just love grandstanding opportities. Failure of
NR (and TOC's) to implement project successfully can cause early
move to backbenches, loss of seat, unpopularity with fellow MP's. In
event of such failure, a SCAPEGOAT is required by politician, who will
side with public if he has any sense. NR types of all grades only really
of interest if they deliver what he wants and don't foul up.

2. NR Director - costs, timescales and success vital.
Regardless of political persuasion, brownie points for implementing on
time to cost and it works within 5 year timeframe of whichever Govt in
power. ie big bonus, better job or a knighthood beckon. Failure will result
in appointment by Transport Secretary to role of SCAPEGOAT and he
knows it. Has some interest in staff welfare, but probably only in so much
as he knows that failure to show some interest will reap unpleasant
rewards in due course. Unlikely to be keen on unions as they get in the
way and increase project costs if they can.

If estimated costs
-too high (but that's a very subjective thing and he has to decide on
the basis of reasonableness and what he thinks he might get away
with), the project won't get approved by Gov't, or will be descoped.
He likes to have plenty of contingecy in war chest, but as cost is too
high, that's usually one of the early things to be trimmed.
But what if that project is VITAL to lots of other developments???
If actual costs turn out to be much higher than estimated costs,
-he loses his bonus (or possibly job). But he has got the vital job
done and facilitated other dependent gains.
Similarly for timescales,
-estimated timescale too long, Govt will tell director to do it quicker.
If he says he can't, they'll either scrap project, reduce its scope or
replace him with a new director who says he can do it in the cost and
time frame politicans want.
-actual timescale too long, that's an overrun and likely to be major
problems with disgruntled passengers, Minister, knock on effect on
other projects, possible demotion / loss of job in serious cases.

Big project complete failure to successfully implement- bye, bye director.

3. Project Manager
He really is in the middle here. The contractors and NR men with
spades, signals and trains etc want as much time as possible to do
job and the most associated money (with [limited] overtime rather
popular) , His boss the director wants the opposite. The unions and
many of the staff want the status quo in terms of working practices,
which may not suit new ways of working without considerable
'bribes'. If it goes well, he'll likely get big bonuses, promotion, great
CV for future jobs. If it goes tits up, its very bad news. Unlikely to
run a big project again for a long time as the project will be all over
the media and future employers will be aware.

Has to do his master's bidding and likely feels somewhat squeezed,
but is likely much closer to the guys and gals doing the work and
probably rather more appreciative of what they do [or should be].

4. Unions will try very hard to use any proposed deviance from normal
working as a means to ramp up their members rewards in some way.
I suppose its understandable really, but doesn't make life easy when
NR need someone at 01.30 in the morning and there's no negotiated
agreement in place. However, often will help facilitate project
progress as long as not outside confines of existing agreements.

5. Drivers, signallers, civils - project cost irrelevant to them, want as much
time as they can get to do the job so they can be certain of
completing job on time. Generally like to do a good job and are
prepared to work hard for it. Other than overtime and perhaps a
small bonus though, they often don't get significant reward for
project success, so may well be not as enthused as some of the
types higher up the food chain who might benefit more. Used to
working on 'operational' tasks under clearly defined rules, so find
one-off 'project' type working a bit foreign at times.


The above is just an outsiders very simplistic take on the differing kind of mindsets which might occur on an NR project and I'm sure many of you will disagree with many or all of the above. The reason i've shown these possible different perspectives howeever is to show how indirect pressures on major players can be very significant, particularly from above and that not all influences are actually to the benefit of the project, indeed many are towards the individual themselves and their personal situation. The outcome is that well-worked out plans can be challenged with simple questions like "Is that crane really likely to have a x% chance of failing???", there being an implicit 'It's pretty obvious that I think it's too bloody high'. A good Project Manager will review that chance of failure and if the result is the same, stick with it, if not, revise the plans. A bad one lacking confidence, or full of their own importance, may well try to pursuade those who supplied the estimates to come up with a 'new' lower figure to court poularity with his boss or railroad meetings to their viewpoint. I know very little about the workings of the GRIP project system and I am sure there will be some controls and balances to avoid strong 'personalities' riding roughshod over the views of their colleagues, but do they always work?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yep, at our last management meeting before Crimbo, our CIO took a note of who would be in UK during the holiday weeks if there was a problem. I don't get an on-call allowance or indeed O/T on my grade but would certainly go in and sort out time in lieu etc. later. Isn't that part of and parcel of being a professional engineer?

Yes!:p:
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,840
No. I was just saying things as I believed them to be, and has been confirmed by someone on one of the trains.

And why do you have a problem with people mentioning 7/7? Most people know on here how close I was to being blown up on a bus (a matter of two buses in front, also on a diverted bus) and I don't feel it in any way inappropriate as I wasn't comparing the incident itself, but rather the chaos caused by it.

For all intents and purposes, the disruption at King's Cross was VERY similar. Neither incident was planned, although you could argue that one (or maybe even both) could have been prevented - but they weren't, which is all that matters here.

I just cannot see any connection to 7/7, obviously nobody would blame the rail industry for any delays on that day but they certainly will for delays over the last few days
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,491
Location
UK
I think you're missing the point. I'm not saying what happened on 7/7 is connected to a cock up of planned engineering work - but rather the disruption caused and how plans were made to manage it.

I also mentioned how people did accept it, and how people got on with things. Maybe nobody made a delay repay claim after 7/7 but will have done this time, but that's not relevant.

Anyway, for the benefit of others reading this thread now and seeing mentions of 7/7 and wondering what the hell it's all about, I am happy to drop it. I think I made my point and now it's wandering off on a tangent and not adding anything to the discussion.
 

Aldaniti

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2009
Messages
668
From working in the NHS I know that the usual way that major organisations arrange contingencies for urgent issues over Christmas and New Year is to have a designated on-call director, which in this case appears to have bern Robin Gisby. They will usually have authority to take decisions across directorates as required. Given that arrangements such as this appear to have been in place, what advantage would there have been in bringing in the Chief Executive? These very arrangements are meant to cover situations such as these. Anyway, the problems that occurred were primarily to do with the TOCs response, not with Network Rail.


As I've already said, its about leadership and the perception of leadership. Putting aside the fact that Gisby's media performances were mediochre at best.
 

SimonS

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2012
Messages
30
As I've already said, its about leadership and the perception of leadership. Putting aside the fact that Gisby's media performances were mediochre at best.

Having already decided to leave he was yesterday's man the obvious fall guy and dispensable.

Poor media performances as you say - bearing in mind the frequency of these situations media training should be a priority to avoid more of Gisby's I this and I that performances which showed him to be a touch arrogant.

Even then there had to be a good old NR fiasco over whether he was or wasn't eligible for a pay off when he leaves.
 

Oxfordblues

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
868
After this experience I'd be surprised if any big projects will be planned for next Christmas, at least in London. I'd expect more blockades outside holiday periods despite the huge disruption to commuters and business travel. At least passengers and freight customers would then be able to plan in advance to minimise the effects. And lots more contingency and recovery time might be added to possessions.
 

Chrism20

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2013
Messages
1,351
After this experience I'd be surprised if any big projects will be planned for next Christmas, at least in London. I'd expect more blockades outside holiday periods despite the huge disruption to commuters and business travel. At least passengers and freight customers would then be able to plan in advance to minimise the effects. And lots more contingency and recovery time might be added to possessions.

I don't think it will put them off, what we may see though is a little more contingency time being put into the timetables.

For example midday handovers on the 27th instead of 5am etc in time for the first turn of the day.
 

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,870
After this experience I'd be surprised if any big projects will be planned for next Christmas, at least in London. I'd expect more blockades outside holiday periods despite the huge disruption to commuters and business travel. At least passengers and freight customers would then be able to plan in advance to minimise the effects. And lots more contingency and recovery time might be added to possessions.

IF there are any, then they will have already been planned some 2 years + ago
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,127
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Having already decided to leave he was yesterday's man the obvious fall guy and dispensable.
Poor media performances as you say - bearing in mind the frequency of these situations media training should be a priority to avoid more of Gisby's I this and I that performances which showed him to be a touch arrogant.
Even then there had to be a good old NR fiasco over whether he was or wasn't eligible for a pay off when he leaves.

Another group entirely absent over the weekend was the Rail Delivery Group.
They are the ones who are supposed to be "the face of the industry".

Having said that, Gisby is quite good under the cameras. So are people like Tim O'Toole and David Higgins.
But ATOC and RDG are very poor. They always try and defend the indefensible.

But time moves on.
The press, having put Network Rail through the wringer on a slow news day, has now moved on to disasters and business failures (with our friend Mick Cash finding a non-rail outlet for his ire!).
Tomorrow it will be about whether the people getting New Year honours really deserve them (I hope Mark Carne isn't getting a knighthood...;)).
Parliament and DfT, however, have longer memories.
This, and the burgeoning crisis on electrification costs, won't have done much for NR's reputation in Whitehall.
 
Last edited:

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
16,485
It'll be back to rail on Friday over the fares increases though!
 

PG

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
3,289
Location
at the end of the high and low roads
It'll be back to rail on Friday over the fares increases though!
Going back to my earlier post #507 the Daily Wail will be blaming fare increases on Network Rail then!!
Daily Mail said:
...led to fresh calls from MPs for heads to roll at Network Rail. The infrastructure firm, which taxpayers fund with £5billion a year, was already under fire for announcing 'rip-off' new year fare rises.
 

SimonS

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2012
Messages
30
Another group entirely absent over the weekend was the Rail Delivery Group.
They are the ones who are supposed to be "the face of the industry".

Having said that, Gisby is quite good under the cameras. So are people like Tim O'Toole and David Higgins.
But ATOC and RDG are very poor. They always try and defend the indefensible.

Dear old Tim O'Toole. Probably best sticking to the day job for now.

With the rate First Group are losing franchises he will soon be an ex-railwayman anyway.

Still he is probably surviving on his own mega pay increase in the middle of 2014. Or at least surviving better than the shareholders who have seen the First Group share price fall by around 75% under his leadership.

Who would want to transfer that 'success' to the wider railway.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
10,945
Location
here to eternity
For example midday handovers on the 27th instead of 5am etc in time for the first turn of the day.

Even a mid-day handover ("handback" is actually the correct term) would have been no use in this case - it overran by about 24 hours!
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,847
Hilarious interview, Murnaghan desperately going at him on misinformed "you get 75% off your train travel", yes Dermot, on an annual season ticket to work, everybody at NR has that benefit if they want it....
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
33,045
Carne announces on Sky News he will not take his £135,000 bonus after late-running Christmas track works caused chaos at the weekend. - http://news.sky.com/story/1399707/network-rail-boss-mark-carne-to-turn-down-bonus

Odd, I thought that was for the 'Remuneration Committee' to decide...

The remuneration committee may decide he should get part of his bonus. They'll follow their own rules, not some media witch hunt.

It won't be dependent on what happens on one day of the year. So he's pre-emptively deciding not to take it to hopefully avoid the flack...
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,840
Hilarious interview, Murnaghan desperately going at him on misinformed "you get 75% off your train travel", yes Dermot, on an annual season ticket to work, everybody at NR has that benefit if they want it....

Isn't that exactly what an interviewer is supposed to do?
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,320
Location
Bolton
Add what's going on over there!? I'm on the 1130 EUS - GLC and it's full and standing in First Class, with hordes of mostly very elderly Scottish people. 11 car and I hear there's a brawl in Standard, plus someone has already had a bag pinched. It's boiling too. Apparently we will set down only at the first 3 stations due to carrying East Coast passengers, that's what the TM says but it doesn't sound right to me. I'm not going to make it to Glasgow on this train...
 

Stats

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2009
Messages
943
More problems on ECML today with no services between Edinburgh and Berwick due to overhead wire problems near Dunbar. Some services diverted via Carlisle and a shuttle service is operating between Newcastle and Berwick.
 

SimonS

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2012
Messages
30
Carne announces on Sky News he will not take his £135,000 bonus after late-running Christmas track works caused chaos at the weekend. - http://news.sky.com/story/1399707/network-rail-boss-mark-carne-to-turn-down-bonus

Odd, I thought that was for the 'Remuneration Committee' to decide...

What a difference a day makes.

Yesterday it was for the RemCom to decide and his interviews were on the phone.

Today he has made the decision himself and he is seen looking busy at Reading in a hi-viz jacket.

Nothing like a good u turn.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top