West Coast Railways Suspended (now reinstated)

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I hope it was not a case of corners having been cut to save money as the trips already cost upwards of £200 for primer dining with The Railway Touring Company but are they are so much better than than Compass Tours who also hire from WCR but use MK2 stock.

As being acknowledged as somewhat of an epicurean, may I be so bold as to enquire into exactly what is meant by "primer dining" that I have caused to be emboldened in the extract from your posting shown above.

 

[GatwickDepress]

As being acknowledged as somewhat of an epicurean, may I be so bold as to enquire into exactly what is meant by "primer dining" that I have caused to be emboldened in the extract from your posting shown above.

Dining with a bang.

 

[tsr]

Dining with a bang.

Or in this case, wine on tap (the red being recommended), the countryside speeding by, and the gentle clink of a 125's bodyside panelling falling in somebody's soup bowl.

 

[gazthomas]

As being acknowledged as somewhat of an epicurean, may I be so bold as to enquire into exactly what is meant by "primer dining" that I have caused to be emboldened in the extract from your posting shown above.

A canapé to line ones stomach before the main meal?

 

[D60]

This whole situation (putting the 'primer dining' question to one side for a moment..) is all very concerning.. not just the initial incident, but then also the fact that Network Rail feel that a ban on operations is justified, for all/any of the reasons alluded to by others in earlier posts..

I have travelled on many WCR trips through RTC, Statesman and Compass (albeit never 'primer dining'..), and have marvelled at the logistical complexity of the whole operation..

I'm wondering how far Network Rail's concerns go.. and until their concerns are fully addressed, whether there's any scope for a partial lifting of the ban, thereby allowing any of WCR's several rakes of stock to be made available for booked tours, crewed and operated by another provider..? DRS, Vintage Trains, SRPS..?

For what its worth (next to nothing, I know), we watched Tangmere and the Cathedrals Express depart Temple Meads at the start of the fateful trip in question on 7 March.. and WCR's Southall-based rake of mostly mk2s appeared to the casual observer to be superbly smartly turned out, fresh from winter overhaul and repaint..

Yes, safety on the railway must always be paramount.. and I do hope to see WCR back in action soon with all concerns addressed..

Meanwhile, containers continue to fall off trains..(!)

 

[CharlieSpotted]

The Great Western Railway deployed an early version of the system in 1906. The modern systems are a bit more complex (for a start, they use a non-contact system!) but nevertheless that established the basic principle.

That's really useful context - thank you.

 

[Lord Longhop]

This whole situation (putting the 'primer dining' question to one side for a moment..) is all very concerning.. not just the initial incident, but then also the fact that Network Rail feel that a ban on operations is justified, for all/any of the reasons alluded to by others in earlier posts..

I have travelled on many WCR trips through RTC, Statesman and Compass (albeit never 'primer dining'..), and have marvelled at the logistical complexity of the whole operation..

I'm wondering how far Network Rail's concerns go.. and until their concerns are fully addressed, whether there's any scope for a partial lifting of the ban, thereby allowing any of WCR's several rakes of stock to be made available for booked tours, crewed and operated by another provider..? DRS, Vintage Trains, SRPS..?

For what its worth (next to nothing, I know), we watched Tangmere and the Cathedrals Express depart Temple Meads at the start of the fateful trip in question on 7 March.. and WCR's Southall-based rake of mostly mk2s appeared to the casual observer to be superbly smartly turned out, fresh from winter overhaul and repaint..

Yes, safety on the railway must always be paramount.. and I do hope to see WCR back in action soon with all concerns addressed..

Meanwhile, containers continue to fall off trains..(!)

What an earth has a container falling off a train accidently got to do with a company who have failed to present a good enough safety case to NR ? and have staff who act so badly that had they done the same thing 90 seconds earlier the consequences would have been horrific. Put your house in order or stay off the railways, simple really .

 

[MCR247]

Yeah but the coaches look good so can't we make an exception?

 

[me123]

I couldn't give a toss to be honest, NR wouldn't have taken the decision to suspend them lightly, safety as posted above is paramount, Colwich Junction is what can happen if a train has a SPAD, NR aren't happy with the response from WCR over this so took the decision to suspend them.

BBC artical http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-32167724

I don't doubt that NR have not taken this decision lightly. If you read my initial comment, you'd have seen that I'm not questioning the integrity of the decision.

However, I'd feel sorry for the many people in Fort William and Mallaig who rely on the tourist trade, as one of their main attractions is at threat of withdrawal. It's not their fault that this is the case, but they could suffer financially as a result of it. And I do give a toss about them. For the benefit of the local community, I hope that a steam service, which is safe for all rail users, can be maintained.

Interesting spelling of the word "article".

 

[D60]

What an earth has a container falling off a train accidently got to do with a company who have failed to present a good enough safety case to NR ? and have staff who act so badly that had they done the same thing 90 seconds earlier the consequences would have been horrific. Put your house in order or stay off the railways, simple really .

Not "a container", but 4 instances involving a similar design of wagon, and possible failings in procedure.. and despite "guidelines" being in place, containers continue to fall off trains when it gets windy... and to me, this is equally as shocking and avoidable as any spad.. and the potential consequences are just as horrific as you envisage for a spad... Yes, put your house in order or stay off the railway, as WCR have been ordered to..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah but the coaches look good so can't we make an exception?

As far as I'm aware, no concerns have been raised about the condition or safety of WCR's coaching stock..

 

[lincolnshire]

Loads will poo poo this , but it could be the start of a good excuse to stop all steam trains operating on Network Rail as they would just love it to get rid of the past to get the modern image out there to the general public, as all they are interested in is image.

Network Rail masterminded the getting rid of Jarvis by not paying bills so made them go under and no money left to pay off the staff so the redundancy money had to come from the Government. Its amazing how they found other companies to take on the work straight away, forward planning or brown envelopes?

We will just have to wait and see how it turns out but it could be the start of the end of steam and charter trains etc. not good for the image you know.

 

[mtbox]

Loads will poo poo this , but it could be the start of a good excuse to stop all steam trains operating on Network Rail as they would just love it to get rid of the past to get the modern image out there to the general public, as all they are interested in is image.

Network Rail masterminded the getting rid of Jarvis by not paying bills so made them go under and no money left to pay off the staff so the redundancy money had to come from the Government. Its amazing how they found other companies to take on the work straight away, forward planning or brown envelopes?

We will just have to wait and see how it turns out but it could be the start of the end of steam and charter trains etc. not good for the image you know.

I will be the first.

What you have written above is total rubbish.

 

[theblackwatch]

Loads will poo poo this , but it could be the start of a good excuse to stop all steam trains operating on Network Rail as they would just love it to get rid of the past to get the modern image out there to the general public, as all they are interested in is image.

Network Rail masterminded the getting rid of Jarvis by not paying bills so made them go under and no money left to pay off the staff so the redundancy money had to come from the Government. Its amazing how they found other companies to take on the work straight away, forward planning or brown envelopes?

We will just have to wait and see how it turns out but it could be the start of the end of steam and charter trains etc. not good for the image you know.

This is nothing to do with getting steam trains off the Network, it is about running a safe railway and a TOC which is not up to scratch, and - as per the letter from NR - the response by WCRC senior management to an incident. There are three other TOC's which run steam on the network who are unaffected by this.

 

[LAX54]

I would have thought one thing is certain, the Driver of this train, will not be driving anymore !

 

[lincolnshire]

Not "a container", but 4 instances involving a similar design of wagon, and possible failings in procedure.. and despite "guidelines" being in place, containers continue to fall off trains when it gets windy... and to me, this is equally as shocking and avoidable as any spad.. and the potential consequences are just as horrific as you envisage for a spad... Yes, put your house in order or stay off the railway, as WCR have been ordered to..

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why haven,t they banned these wagons then till something is done to stop the containers coming off them in windy weather, even if they said that no empty containers could be transported unless they was on the wagons that could be locked into position.

Is it that the freight companies are too big a customer to upset? or with a bit of luck the metal container will operate the track circuits of the line they fall on to
if we lucky enough.

West Coast Railways is the David of the Goliath of operating companies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I will be the first.

What you have written above is total rubbish.

You wait and see what happens.

 

[Darandio]

I'd respectfully suggest that the container discussion has no place here, it already has a dedicated thread.

 

[GB]

Why haven,t they banned these wagons then till something is done to stop the containers coming off them in windy weather, even if they said that no empty containers could be transported unless they was on the wagons that could be locked into position.

Empty containers are now banned from those wagons unless they have been pinned UFN.

...and for the record, procedures had been followed at the train involved in the last incident was traveling at 40mph....20mph below the guidelines.

 

[DaleCooper]

Not "a container", but 4 instances involving a similar design of wagon, and possible failings in procedure.. and despite "guidelines" being in place, containers continue to fall off trains when it gets windy... and to me, this is equally as shocking and avoidable as any spad.. and the potential consequences are just as horrific as you envisage for a spad... Yes, put your house in order or stay off the railway, as WCR have been ordered to..

Does anyone know the "incidences per million miles" (or whatever the measure is) for container trains versus WCR? I'd guess WCR's are far greater.

 

[carriageline]

No body is asking what is worse. It's how WCR Have apparently deal with this whole situation which has forced Network Rails hand.

 

[theblackwatch]

I'd respectfully suggest that the container discussion has no place here, it already has a dedicated thread.

Correct - any further posts where people drift onto the container incident will be deleted.

 

[Clarence Yard]

NR just want operators to be safe users of their network. They want them to have adequate controls in place to manage safety properly and if things go wrong to respond to the problems in an effective and timely manner.

West Coast Railways have been found wanting and this action will not have been taken lightly. I am quite sure that both the RAIB and the ORR will have been involved in discussions leading up to this suspension. This kind of thing always has to be proportionate to the issues found and suspension is a very big deal.

The problem with one fault in your SMS is that doubt is then shed on the rest of it, maybe including loco and rolling stock maintenace procedures. Unfairly perhaps, but then you have to go the extra mile when the external safety auditors come to look at your SMS. This is what tends to happen with all sizes of operator these days.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if this isn't the key rather than what may or may not have happened on the footplate? I think it became fairly obvious that the main reason that WCRC had a steam ban applied to them over Network Rail London North Eastern metals was that NR LNE lost all faith in WCRC management's ability to operate safely over their network. WCRC's MD went so far as to forbid his staff to communicate with NR LNE about this issue!

It seems to me that something similar is playing out here. NR are, obviously, concerned by what happened on the footplate but I wonder if they aren't more concerned by the management that is behind the whole thing. This would explain why their letter clearly focuses on management at WCRC.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Nail on head here.

If their employer's s management and processes are up to scratch, individuals behaving in a risky way will probably be identified before a serious incident occurs and offered support to work in a better way, or if necessary removed from duties they may be unsuitable for. If a serious incident does occur the employer needs to co-operate with inquries and implement corrective actions. These procedures are collectively part of the Safety Management System that the operator needs to have in order to be allowed to run.

This isn't about one individual or even several, it's about the company as a whole either not having a suitable SMS or not doing what the SMS says it will do.

 

[D60]

Correct - any further posts where people drift onto the container incident will be deleted.

Apologies for (possibly spuriously) drawing attention to other topical safety issues on the railway... I am always interested in wider contexts... And Clarence Yard's post above goes a long way in that respect... and probably also goes a long way in answering my earlier query about any possible availability of WCR's stock to other operators while the ban is in force..

 

[Hadders]

Surprised to hear this story on the Radio 2 news. They said that 'West Coast Railways' have been suspended over safety breaches. I wonder how many people will think it's Virgin Trains that have been suspended, particularly as many services this weekend are suspended!

A bit of an own goal here. Surely NR press office should be making clear that West Coast Railways is a charter operator etc.

I wonder what'll appear in the Daily Mail.

 

[me123]

Loads will poo poo this , but it could be the start of a good excuse to stop all steam trains operating on Network Rail as they would just love it to get rid of the past to get the modern image out there to the general public, as all they are interested in is image.

Network Rail masterminded the getting rid of Jarvis by not paying bills so made them go under and no money left to pay off the staff so the redundancy money had to come from the Government. Its amazing how they found other companies to take on the work straight away, forward planning or brown envelopes?

We will just have to wait and see how it turns out but it could be the start of the end of steam and charter trains etc. not good for the image you know.

Up here in Scotland alone, Steam Trains operate a popular tourist service between Fort William and Mallaig (as has been extensively mentioned, as it is operated by West Coast Railways). Scotrail are going to launch specific steam journeys for tourists coming up. I don't think steam is going to make a comeback to mainstream rail journeys, but it's rather foolish to think that steam specials are going away. There is clearly a market for them, and I think in some instances they can support local rail services (for example, I reckon a significant number of people travelling to Fort William by train will subsequently catch the Jacobite to Mallaig).

 

[Tracky]

It is not a conspiracy to get rid of steam.

DB are still licenced to operate steam traction on the mainline and will continue to operate trains for Belmond (British Pullman), UK Railtours, Patchfinder and Torbay Express Ltd. Hopefully they will also have the resources to pick up some of the work WCR are unable to complete.

I suspect The Railway Touring Company are looking to them for assistance with the week long tour of Britain. Let's hope DB still have some good will and RTC have some cash flow!

The Scottish operations are interesting. Abelio were going to promote the steam services with WCR as operator on a trial basis. I suspect that if sucsesful, and in the much longer term, their aim would be to bring it in house and have their own drivers passed for steam.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.westcoastrailways.co.uk/download/Important.pdf

Dear Fellow Traveller
Passenger safety is our number one priority.
You may have read or seen news relating to Network Rail (owners of the lines used by West Coast Railways) and West Coast Railways.
A recent breach of safety regulations involving one of our trains crossing a red light has lead to discussions by both parties to establish how this happened and more importantly the preventative measures in place to ensure it can’t happen again. Although no one was injured in any way West Coast Railways consider this to be sufficient to carry out a full internal enquiry with the support of Network Rail and at this time will not be running trains under their current used licence.
However all trips remain unaffected and will run as normal under licence of another operator, using the same vintage Mk2 carriages, passengers will not be affected and all schedules including the Jacobite will continue as normal.
Safety is a primary importance to both west Coast Railways and Network Rail and as such both parties MUST be absolutely satisfied with the safety measures in place to prevent any such future happenings, through continued discussions and when both parties are satisfied it is hoped that West Coast Railways will resume operation under licence.

 

[infobleep]

Absolutely.

As I have said in previous posts safety in the rail industry is something to be very proud of. While at times I complain about 'red tape' the huge cost and constant management of rail safety management is in my view absolutely justified and the incidents which have led to today's action are very serious and justify the action being taken.

I have held concerns about the industry - feeling for some time that promoters were taking risks in having all their eggs in one basket.

Vintage Trains own a train and mainline locos but they are all vacuum braked only and DB no longer operate vacuum braked equipment so they are at the mercy of west coast.
Steam Dreams dumped DB following resourcing issues. They would in my view, have done well to work with DB to create a schedule which complemented DBs resources.

Problem is, again and again WCR charged less and were far more flexible so won the work.

What is required is a company who is prepared to be flexible and safe.

Of course it's not cheap to run trains so I can understand why a charter company would go with a cheaper operator as they can sell cheaper train tickets.

 

[CosherB]

Loads will poo poo this , but it could be the start of a good excuse to stop all steam trains operating on Network Rail as they would just love it to get rid of the past to get the modern image out there to the general public, as all they are interested in is image.

Network Rail masterminded the getting rid of Jarvis by not paying bills so made them go under and no money left to pay off the staff so the redundancy money had to come from the Government. Its amazing how they found other companies to take on the work straight away, forward planning or brown envelopes?

We will just have to wait and see how it turns out but it could be the start of the end of steam and charter trains etc. not good for the image you know.

utter rubbish and no doubt libelous. lawyers would have a field day with you.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ihttp://www.westcoastrailways.co.uk/download/Important.pdf

That reads as though WCR has suspended itself, not as the result of an action by Network Rail.
It is also badly drafted with several spelling mistakes.
"Crossing a red light"?

 

[scotsman]

That reads as though WCR has suspended itself, not as the result of an action by Network Rail.
It is also badly drafted with several spelling mistakes.
"Crossing a red light"?

Sounds like desperate spin.