AWS and TPWS

[Nick82]

Trying to do some research on signalling and safety systems. I havee been led to believe that the Tyne and Wear Metro do not use AWS and TPWS but share Network Rail lines between Pelaw and Sunderland. Is there a reason for this or am i miss informed.

 

[40129]

My understanding is that like LU, TWM has its own train stop equipment fitted to track and trains and as a self-contained network would not have been equipped with AWS. To accommodate this situation, the signals on the main line between Pelaw and Sunderland are dual fitted with TPWS and TWM's train stop equipment. TPWS is fitted IIRC to all signals on this section to prevent the possibility of a main line train (especially freight) colliding with a light rail vehicle

 

[wensley]

My understanding is that like LU, TWM has its own train stop equipment fitted to track and trains and as a self-contained network would not have been equipped with AWS. To accommodate this situation, the signals on the main line between Pelaw and Sunderland are dual fitted with TPWS and TWM's train stop equipment. TPWS is fitted IIRC to all signals on this section to prevent the possibility of a main line train (especially freight) colliding with a light rail vehicle

Correct. The system in question is called INDUSI.

 

[Nick82]

Correct. The system in question is called INDUSI.

Yes I have heard that, German I believe. So when it comes to qualified drivers I assume Train Crews on the TWM and LU ect, they are not classed as qualified drivers to drive on the main line and still have to under take trainee train driver courses. This due to lack of training and knowledge on these such systems

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What about Richmond, London from the station until where the LO and LU part company? Would the District line drivers who sign that route have to have done any "mainline drivers" course?

 

[A-driver]

Yes I have heard that, German I believe. So when it comes to qualified drivers I assume Train Crews on the TWM and LU ect, they are not classed as qualified drivers to drive on the main line and still have to under take trainee train driver courses. This due to lack of training and knowledge on these such systems

Those such systems and many other things. Same goes for mainline drivers moving to LUL etc-it's a completely different set up so apart from experience of handling trains there is very little transferable knowledge between main line and any light railway.

 

[Domh245]

What about Richmond, London from the station until where the LO and LU part company? Would the District line drivers who sign that route have to have done any "mainline drivers" course?

Don't forget the wimbledon branch and the DC lines as well! But yes, as I understand it, District drivers and Bakerloo drivers, in addition to LU rules and regs, have to do the appropriate NR rules and regs courses for signalling etc. The District dave page on T/Op training has got a brief mention of this - albeit when it was written, it was railtrack.

http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/t_o_training.html

 

[40129]

Notwithstanding that LU is not light rail I agree with what A-driver has just said. I remember when I first did PTS on the main line having previously worked on LU and having to remember that a place of safety was now a position of safety and that the hand signal for emergency stop was different. Also, the emergency stop procedure being completely different due to a fundamental difference between the operating environment of the two different systems.

 

[A-driver]

Notwithstanding that LU is not light rail I agree with what A-driver has just said. I remember when I first did PTS on the main line having previously worked on LU and having to remember that a place of safety was now a position of safety and that the hand signal for emergency stop was different. Also, the emergency stop procedure being completely different due to a fundamental difference between the operating environment of the two different systems.

Well it's not exactly light rail but light rail is a generic term for enclosed railways as opposed to the mainline NR network.

 

[Mojo]

Well it's not exactly light rail but light rail is a generic term for enclosed railways as opposed to the mainline NR network.

I believe "Metro" is the term used to distinguish between "Main Line" services and other urban transport systems.

"Light Rail" is a different term which relates to something quite different and has its own specific meaning.

 

[Nick82]

So after reading these posts am I correct in saying that its not easy as some people make it out to transfer from a metro company to a network rail company in terms of being and classed as a qualified driver.
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So you cant really apply for qualified roles you have to undergo trainee driver courses?

 

[A-driver]

So after reading these posts am I correct in saying that its not easy as some people make it out to transfer from a metro company to a network rail company in terms of being and classed as a qualified driver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So you cant really apply for qualified roles you have to undergo trainee driver courses?

No-mainline and 'non-mainline' are completely different jobs and the qualifications are in no way transferable.

Of course a tube driver will have some transferable skills and lots of relevant experience which will put them ahead of many others in the application process but they would still require the same training as anyone else.

 

[Nick82]

No-mainline and 'non-mainline' are completely different jobs and the qualifications are in no way transferable.

Of course a tube driver will have some transferable skills and lots of relevant experience which will put them ahead of many others in the application process but they would still require the same training as anyone else.

Right ok, So regardless what company you work for you would still have to do a trainee train drivers course

 

[westcoaster]

Right ok, So regardless what company you work for you would still have to do a trainee train drivers course

Yes the full course regardless.

 

[Nick82]

Thanks for that, That is interesting as I hear a lot of people using light railways and Metro experience of driving trains with the impression they can apply for qualified train driver positions

 

[Cherry_Picker]

There's no reason they can't apply but they won't be considered a qualified driver. I'm a mainline driver who also works over LUL metals. If I ever wanted to go to LUL then I'm sure citing my experience of working on their infrastructure would strengthen my application but I'd fully expect to be considered a trainee tube driver when I join.

 

[A-driver]

Right ok, So regardless what company you work for you would still have to do a trainee train drivers course

Depends what you mean by 'company'. A driver working for scotrail can apply for Virgin as a qualified driver. As long as you are qualified on NR metals you are qualified.

 

[Nick82]

Depends what you mean by 'company'. A driver working for scotrail can apply for Virgin as a qualified driver. As long as you are qualified on NR metals you are qualified.

I mean as in a company like TWM and london underground

 

[A-driver]

I mean as in a company like TWM and london underground

No, those are different.

 

[142094]

Beg to differ, there are quite a few former Tyne and Wear Metro drivers who have gone over to other TOCs/FOCs as qualified drivers without the need to do trainee driver training again.

As has been said, Tyne and Wear Metro uses Indusi train stop equipment which is fitted to all signals, as well as speed control equipment in certain sections of the Sunderland line.

 

[A-driver]

Beg to differ, there are quite a few former Tyne and Wear Metro drivers who have gone over to other TOCs/FOCs as qualified drivers without the need to do trainee driver training again.



As has been said, Tyne and Wear Metro uses Indusi train stop equipment which is fitted to all signals, as well as speed control equipment in certain sections of the Sunderland line.

Sorry but that isn't the case. Tyne and Wear metro driving wouldn't be recognised as a qualified driver by a TOC or FOC. They would still need the bulk of a trainee course and most companies would make them sit the entire course to be sure.

 

[142094]

Sorry but that isn't the case. Tyne and Wear metro driving wouldn't be recognised as a qualified driver by a TOC or FOC. They would still need the bulk of a trainee course and most companies would make them sit the entire course to be sure.

As I said previously, I know for a fact that there are currently drivers who have transferred as qualified drivers and are currently working for other TOCs in the Arriva Trains UK group and at least two different FOCs.

 

[A-driver]

As I said previously, I know for a fact that there are currently drivers who have transferred as qualified drivers and are currently working for other TOCs in the Arriva Trains UK group and at least two different FOCs.

Not without training they won't be.

 

[142094]

There is quite a big difference between the training they will have required and needing to do :

the bulk of a trainee course

There will be the obvious training such as traction and route knowledge, and perhaps some freight-specific issues that drivers from any other of the TOCs would have to undergo if they transferred to another TOC or FOC.

Seeing as the line between Pelaw Junction and South Hylton is owned, maintained and signalled by Network Rail to Network Rail standards, Tyne and Wear Metro drivers undergo training in both the Network Rail rule book and a specific rule book that applies to Metro infrastructure.

 

[Nick82]

So what your saying is if there is a driver with experience of driving a metro car with a maximum speed of 60-80 Km/h, with lets say 5 years experience. If a vacancy position came available for lets say VTEC and they applied, they would be taken in consideration for the qualified train drivers role.

 

[Llama]

No, they would need to meet the same medical and psychometric standards as all other non-qualified new entrants would. Then they would need the full training course and post-qualifying period as all other new entrants would.

 

[Nick82]

So they are not classed as a qualified driver and hold the key. So what would the process be for a non qualified entrant applying for a company like XC, GC and VTEC
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So they are not classed as a qualified driver and hold the key. So what would the process be for a non qualified entrant applying for a company like XC, GC and VTEC

And would the process differ as two of the FOCs mentioned are all linked within Arriva and DB

 

[A-driver]

So they are not classed as a qualified driver and hold the key. So what would the process be for a non qualified entrant applying for a company like XC, GC and VTEC
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




And would the process differ as two of the FOCs mentioned are all linked within Arriva and DB

Same as any other TOC. The speed of the train makes absolutely no difference. You can be a trainee driver at any TOC. Ok not many intercity TOCs take trainees off the streets as there is enough applicants from qualified and internal candidates but they do recruit trainees from within from time to time. So a catering host could become a train driver and their first experience of driving a train would be at 125mph. I assume that is what you are getting at?

Speed makes very little difference to driving a train. You don't start on slower trains and work you r way up to faster ones. Trainees at GTR go straight into 100mph running.

The parent company also makes no difference as all drivers need to meet the standards set centrally.

 

[Nick82]

Same as any other TOC. The speed of the train makes absolutely no difference. You can be a trainee driver at any TOC. Ok not many intercity TOCs take trainees off the streets as there is enough applicants from qualified and internal candidates but they do recruit trainees from within from time to time. So a catering host could become a train driver and their first experience of driving a train would be at 125mph. I assume that is what you are getting at?

Speed makes very little difference to driving a train. You don't start on slower trains and work you r way up to faster ones. Trainees at GTR go straight into 100mph running.

The parent company also makes no difference as all drivers need to meet the standards set centrally.

I know speed makes no difference and I agree with what you are saying. But I dont understand why some people think you can move from being train crew on the tyne and wear metro then applying for a position to be a qualified train driver for lets say Northern or VTEC with out doing a trainee train drivers course

 

[HowardGWR]

A very interesting thread and reminds me of when we had steam, that AFAIK, it was not necessary for a qualified driver to train for specific steam traction, but that was due to the fact that he would have spent perhaps decades as a fireman and would have worked all the traction by the time he was raised to driver. That's different now with single manning but with company-specialised traction (typically) he /she (note the she) would probably now have to learn new traction on switching companies. Is there a certificate system to shew for which traction one is qualified? Can one take that from one, say, FOC, to another, e.g. class 66?

This is apart from route learning and signalling of course.