Reading 61306 'Mayflower' Incident 13/6/15

[Minilad]

Looks like another train operated by WCR has caused a bit of a kerfuffle. At Reading this time

 

[168lover]

Looks like another train operated by WCR has caused a bit of a kerfuffle. At Reading this time

Early reports suggest that a steam special operated by West Coast Railways may of moved a couple of metres whilst passengers were leaving the train and the guard was on the platform. Does not look good for west coast...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I would strongly suggest that there be no further comment or speculation on what happened, as it could be prejudicial to any formal enquiry or rail staff's careers.

Rumours can be exceptionally damaging and aren't welcome.

 

[BestWestern]

If indeed there was an incident, this could in fact be an opportunity for the newly enlightened WCR to demonstrate that it does now have the capacity to conduct itself in the appropriate manner. In which case, I would expect little more to come of it, assuming that it was a simple operating incident of the sort suggested above.

 

[BestWestern]

I don't think there's cause for concern here.

I agree that there are times when inappropriate 'chatter' may cause issues, if an allegation is made or an otherwise 'unseen' matter is placed in the public domain. But in an incident such as this, the precise details of what did or did not happen will be richly available to those who need them, via a variety of reliable and rather indisputable data sources.

So, I don't think we need be too jittery this time.

 

[the-gog]

Of the uk.railway newsgroup:

I was on that train, and I think all the doors were closed when the train slowly moved forward a yard or so and then stopped smoothly (no sudden braking). Passengers detraining had all left the train by then, and the doors closed. We were overdue to depart, so it was no surprise that the train moved off.

It had a green signal, but apparently the guard disagreed with the driver's decision to leave, and stopped the train. I don't know what step hadn't been taken, but I'm assuming WCR staff are bending over backwards to follow all the rules to the letter now, and Reading isn't a station where errors would be unobserved.

I still don't know what the problem was. Perhaps it was something like a lack of confirmation that all doors were locked? I don't think anything dangerous happened, and it certainly wasn't a SPAD, but WCR is obviously trying to do everything by the book now, and is presumably being carefully observed, specially at major stations like Reading.

We then sat there for over half an hour, with a lot of faffing around with many orange vests and BTP in attendance. No-one seemed to be able to agree whether we could move off or not, but pax were then offered the option of crossing the platform to board a 165 (2x2 car) fGW Paddington stopper (shown as being for Ealing Broadway, of course). We were advised that the steam train might be delayed for some time, so I think most pax moved across -- I certainly did. I suspected it would be cancelled, if only because the loco would be running low on water by then, and as we now know, it was.

Until then, it had been a smooth, punctual trip, with the only delays due to late running fGW trains in the single track sections of the Cotswold line.

 

[Dhassell]

Apparently Last Night 1Z27 WCRC's 'The Cotswold Venturer' Being Hauled by 61306 'Mayflower' Whilst stopped at Reading got a Green Signal from ahead. then apparently they might have mistaken a whistle for another platform as theirs and started moving as people where still alighting! anyone currently know if this is True or if there is any more information?

 

[Aictos]

Haven't heard details but at the moment, seeing as they are under very close observation by the RAIB for a previous incident, I can't see Network Rail agreeing any time soon to permit WCRC to operate anywhere on the National Network indeed I suspect that depending on the outcome of the investigation this might be the straw that broke the camel's back and it's bye bye WCRC.

 

[Harlan Cage]

I can recall a few times in the long distance past where a train has moved very slowly for short distance at a station and stopped by a quickly. No one was hurt and no fuss was made and whilst I am not condoning this type of incident we do need to get a sense or perspective when issues occur. WCRC are currently walking on eggshells with a lot of people looking for something to for then to fail and point fingers and get some perverse pleasure for some obscure secure reason!
I wonder if any other trains in the UK rolled a small distance at slow speed at a station yesterday without anyone batting a eyelid? When everyone is watching you and looking for issues they will find one and you are know this is occurring staff potential are far more anxious which can in itself create issues.
So let's wait for the RAIB report which I assume there will be and hope that this issue (if it was one ) was a very minor violation of the rules and then we move on.

Warning to all that want to live in a perfect World - You are going to be very dissapointed for the rest of your lives!

HC

 

[Dhassell]

Haven't heard details but at the moment, seeing as they are under very close observation by the RAIB for a previous incident, I can't see Network Rail agreeing any time soon to permit WCRC to operate anywhere on the National Network indeed I suspect that depending on the outcome of the investigation this might be the straw that broke the camel's back and it's bye bye WCRC.

It Does Seem Extremely Unlucky for WCRC

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is the stock that WCR uses equipped with central locking?

 

[route:oxford]

Apparently Last Night 1Z27 WCRC's 'The Cotswold Venturer' Being Hauled by 61306 'Mayflower' Whilst stopped at Reading got a Green Signal from ahead. then apparently they might have mistaken a whistle for another platform as theirs and started moving as people where still alighting! anyone currently know if this is True or if there is any more information?

That sounds unfortunate.

But also doesn't sound right... A reasonable driver would be aware of the timescale it takes for passengers to first alight then board a train.

Was there an indolent straggler perhaps?

 

[Dhassell]

That sounds unfortunate.

But also doesn't sound right... A reasonable driver would be aware of the timescale it takes for passengers to first alight then board a train.

Was there an indolent straggler perhaps?

Not sure about any of the main details. This is what ive heard from a friend who's friend was there when it happened.
But No it doesn't really sound right.

 

[Essexman]

I thought the whistle was to hurry up passengers and trains were despatched by the guard or platform staff. All sounds a bit Thomas the Tank Engine - was there a lady in a green dress that the driver mistook for a green flag?

 

[thelongestroad]

was there a lady in a green dress that the driver mistook for a green flag?

You should see the new FGW/GWR uniform then.

 

[ComUtoR]

A reasonable driver would be aware of the timescale it takes for passengers to first alight then board a train.

How long was the train at a stand ?

 

[sbt]

From postings on the National Preservation forum...

Absolutely established that driver was relieved of duties or unable to continue and the train (the Cotswold Venturer) was cancelled and diesel hauled back to base.
Photograph stated by photographer as taken at moment, or close to, moment of motion shows green but the 'Right Away' light unlit.
People who were there witnessed about 3 to 4 feet of motion.

Apparently the usual dispatch method at Reading for trains without Guard-Driver comms is to use the RA button and light. However, less solidly, apparently WCRC have a Guard-Driver radio system that they use.

 

[ExRes]

'Unlucky' and 'unfortunate' don't really make it as descriptions if, and I stress if, this happened as stated by the OP

Are we to believe that the driver is so stupid as to pull away just because he heard a whistle blow at a main line station ?, if the answer is yes then the sooner WCRC and the driver involved depart the railway scene for good, the better for all

 

[BestWestern]

Is the stock that WCR uses equipped with central locking?

I believe - and I'm happy to be corrected - that there are manual bolts inside the doors, which the onboard staff operate. The train was formed of WCR MK1s, which I would very much doubt have CDL.

 

[sbt]

There are two threads running on this so here is what I have gleaned from postings on the National Preservation forum (which mirrors some info on this thread)...

Absolutely established that driver was relieved of duties or unable to continue and the train (the Cotswold Venturer) was cancelled and diesel hauled back to base.
Photograph stated by photographer as taken at moment, or close to, moment of motion shows green but the 'Right Away' light unlit.
People who were there witnessed about 3 to 4 feet of motion.

Apparently the usual dispatch method at Reading for trains without Guard-Driver comms is to use the RA button and light. However, less solidly, apparently WCRC have a Guard-Driver radio system that they use.

I think the key new info is the one about Guard-Driver radio, assuming that it is correct.

PS: Manual bolts is correct, they don't have CDL.

 

[Dhassell]

Does not look too serious from this video https://www.flickr.com/photos/danwarman1/18789584972/in/dateposted/ But still could be the end of WCRC

 

[BestWestern]

A video has been posted this morning on the 'other' thread, and it would seem that there was very definitely no RA lit at the point the train moved. I'm rather curious about this idea of radios, not least because I would think it a rather unreliable method of communication whilst stood on the footplate of a roaring steam locomotive! As for using them at Reading, the use of the RA would be an instruction carried in the Sectional Appendix, and thus mandatory (unless some form of derogation has been granted). Flags to platform staff and then RA to Driver; works well enough with an HST.

 

[Tomnick]

Haven't heard details but at the moment, seeing as they are under very close observation by the RAIB for a previous incident, I can't see Network Rail agreeing any time soon to permit WCRC to operate anywhere on the National Network indeed I suspect that depending on the outcome of the investigation this might be the straw that broke the camel's back and it's bye bye WCRC.

Why not wait to find out the details, then, before indulging in such dramatic speculation? The critical thing, as far as the ORR and Network Rail are concerned, will be how the management deal with the situation, not the incident itself (which, in turn, sounds relatively minor considering the potential consequences of the SPAD at Wootton Bassett). In the meantime, Network Rail don't have to agree to permit WCRC to operate on the national network - rather, if they have further valid concerns, they can withdraw their right to do so, as they did previously.

 

[BestWestern]

Very, very unlikely that this will have any wider consequences for WCR. It wouldn't be considered a major incident if it happened with any other operator (which, incidentally, it has done, plenty), and neither NR, RSSB nor anybody else can just 'decide' it will be considered more serious this time, simply because they 'dont like' West Coast. An operator is either safe to run trains or they aren't, if they've been deemed safe then anything which occurs day to day can be dealt with only in the same manner as it would be with anybody else - provided it isn't part of a bigger problem.

The initial response to the incident appears to have been perfectly reasonable and proper; the crew were relieved and a contingency was put into place to remove the train in as swifter fashion as was reasonably possible. Provided the management conduct a full and proper investigation and act on any findings, I really can't imagine it will cause any wider issues.

 

[SPADTrap]

Ironically exactly the same thing happened at Kings Cross but as it was DBS..?

 

[Dhassell]

Ironically exactly the same thing happened at Kings Cross but as it was DBS..?

People are Watching WCRC though after what happened at Wootton Basset.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I believe - and I'm happy to be corrected - that there are manual bolts inside the doors, which the onboard staff operate. The train was formed of WCR MK1s, which I would very much doubt have CDL.

I'd assumed that absolutely all passenger stock, preserved or not had to have central locking as the old slam-door stock that was used on the Lymington branch had central locking installed. Can central locking (on any slam-door stock) be tied into either the DRA and/or TPWS so that the driver can't take power if the doors aren't locked?

 

[richa2002]

I'd assumed that absolutely all passenger stock, preserved or not had to have central locking as the old slam-door stock that was used on the Lymington branch had central locking installed. Can central locking (on any slam-door stock) be tied into either the DRA and/or TPWS so that the driver can't take power if the doors aren't locked?

Thankfully not. Secondary door locking (manual bolts) is fine on the mainline with the relevant derogation and there are no restrictions on preserved lines.

 

[BestWestern]

The only practicable way of tying doors into the Driver's role would be some form of hazard light, fitted where it was visible in the cab and could be checked as part of the dispatch procedure - but of course, this would require the coaching stock to be fitted with Central Locking, which they aren't. Even if they were, such a system hasn't been deemed necessary even on the HST fleet, so I'd think the chances of anything similar appearing on heritage stock are very slim.

Just to add some wider context to this incident, mainline HST operators are very familiar with 'train moved in the platform' incidents; it isn't a daily occurrence but it certainly isn't unheard of either.

 

[BestWestern]

People are Watching WCRC though after what happened at Wootton Basset.

Indeed, but this could have occurred anywhere (and does). So long as the crew aren't found to have been completely incompetent or following some dangerous obscure operating procedure (unlikely, given recent events), this shouldn't be any more of an issue here than it ever is anywhere else.