Alcohol bans

[wensley]

You quote those figures, there are also BTP at at least some of the drinkers' home stations. Doncaster on a Saturday night will normally have half a dozen BTP, together with sometimes the EC security bods. The only drunk passengers tend to be those arriving, some on local trains presumably heading for a night out in Donny, but the Edinburgh - Doncaster always disgorges loads, some returning from York, some going out to Doncaster.

Oh yes, 1E28 (2150 ex-York) does tend to be lively. If available Doncaster-based BTP officers tend to ride with this from York, or meet it in at Doncaster.

VTEC's security are based at Newcastle and accompany certain trains South and then travel north on the last service of the night. Once they're off York or one of my services I tend to try and forget about 'em ... but their home stations must have fun when they land back.

Not sure who has a night out in Donny like

 

[sheff1]

Not sure who has a night out in Donny like

A night out in Donny has long been legendary. Over recent years you have had the pleasure of the denizens taking a pre-night out trip to York

 

[Hellfire]

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I really do wish that somebody/anybody would come up with a good explanation for *WHY* do people in the UK need to get drunk so much. Most other countries don't have the problem to anything like the same extent - so why do we ?

Read any social history of England and you will find that drunkeness goes back many hundreds of years. Peter Ackroyd in his excellent Biography of London references the city's apprentices getting drunk and disorderly, assaulting the watch and generally spreading mayhem. You can find similar goings on way back to Anglo Saxon times.

In the 18th century we had Hogarth's Gin Lane. 'Drunk for a penny, dead drunk for twopence.'

In the 19th century drink was used by many working class people to try and forget the horrors of working down a mine or other toil for six days a week. There are many accounts in newspapers of that era of drunkeness, fights and assaults on whatever authority was trying to keep the peace.

Today those people in work have more disposable income to spend on drink and alcohol is relatively cheap. My observation is that the majority of problem drinkers are under the age of 30. It just seems to be part of the British character for some of the population to drink to excess.

 

[Paul Duck]

Will be interesting when VTEC introduce their Middlesbrough services in a few years if this helps spread them out.
Be interesting what time they plan their last northbound service through York heading for Middlesbrough. Finding the younger ones are still heading for York and 'older couples' heading for Durham from Eaglescliffe.
It's not fair on the families heading for London for weekend away. Or those returning from long haul flight into London to be met with that lot at York on a Saturday night.
Personal note, still would love to see TP serve Eaglescliffe on a Saturday, trust us they will all travel 5 mins up road from Yarm if not every service stops there on a Saturday. Then bingo, 6 car class 185's plus we don't mind shepherding them all to the ticket office at Eaglescliffe to help with revenue protection.

 

[HowardGWR]

Well, I am leading a sheltered life (thank goodness). I have learned from this thread what 'cop off' means (looked it up on Google). I don't know what PTI means; it meant Physical Training Instructor in the Andrew (a long time ago, that, for me). Is it Ticket Inspection (but I can't guess the P)?

 

[Deepgreen]

Well, I am leading a sheltered life (thank goodness). I have learned from this thread what 'cop off' means (looked it up on Google). I don't know what PTI means; it meant Physical Training Instructor in the Andrew (a long time ago, that, for me). Is it Ticket Inspection (but I can't guess the P)?

PTI in railway parlance is Platform/Train Interface.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See attached the platform awaiting the last Boro last night, about 10mins before departure. Roughly an equal number the other side of the bridge, and that was a quiet night!

That last train of the 'night' must be very early, as it looks fully light.

 

[DarloRich]

.
In my travels (not necessarily by train) I always feel that the 'true drunks' tend to be in the more northern areas - most of the North East, Merseyside, Blackpool, Greater Manchester etc, not so much Yorkshire

....

I really do wish that somebody/anybody would come up with a good explanation for *WHY* do people in the UK need to get drunk so much. Most other countries don't have the problem to anything like the same extent - so why do we ?

Well why do you think people drink?

I think I know some of the reasons people in the north east binge drink:

Less employment (and certainly less "quality" employment)
less good wages
low prospects
less than good educational performance
fractured communities
a working class cultural history of heavy drinking (that has not changed despite the working class communities that used to hold it together being destroyed and not replaced)
exposure to regular heavy drinking from a young age
acceptance of heavy drinking within family units
fewer diversions/reduced ability to enjoy past times/hobbies
earlier starters
reduced social mobility
long term economic depression
higher than normal levels of depression and mental health issues
feelings of helplessness, desertion, isolation and betrayal within the community

I do know that binge drinking in the north east is the highest in the country and for many people getting mortal is an acceptable past time and certainly an integral part of a decent night out. I’m sure some smart alec will be along to say these factors exits in many places but the fact that levels are so high suggests it has the worst impact in the NE.

 

[HowardGWR]

Actually, looking at the number of trains and the numbers packed onto them, we only appear to be referring to a few hundred sots, as not all will be in that state. When you compare that with the populations of the cities involved, it is not a huge number. I appreciate that is no help to those poor people trying to cope with them, but to draw the conclusion that most of the youth of the NE is beyond hope seems to be not substantiated, on this evidence.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well why do you think people drink?

I think I know some of the reasons people in the north east binge drink:

Less employment (and certainly less "quality" employment)
less good wages
low prospects
less than good educational performance
fractured communities
a working class cultural history of heavy drinking (that has not changed despite the working class communities that used to hold it together being destroyed and not replaced)
exposure to regular heavy drinking from a young age
acceptance of heavy drinking within family units
fewer diversions/reduced ability to enjoy past times/hobbies
earlier starters
reduced social mobility
long term economic depression
higher than normal levels of depression and mental health issues
feelings of helplessness, desertion, isolation and betrayal within the community

I do know that binge drinking in the north east is the highest in the country and for many people getting mortal is an acceptable past time and certainly an integral part of a decent night out. I’m sure some smart alec will be along to say these factors exits in many places but the fact that levels are so high suggests it has the worst impact in the NE.

Thanks. I asked 'WHY' as I simply didn't know and didn't wish to make unwarranted assumptions. That said, your very exhaustive list certainly aligns with what I had *assumed* might well be many of the causes.

I suppose the most disheartening aspect of all this is that there doesn't appear to be any quick fixes to many/most of those issues.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Well why do you think people drink?

I think I know some of the reasons people in the north east binge drink:

Less employment (and certainly less "quality" employment)
less good wages
low prospects
less than good educational performance
fractured communities
a working class cultural history of heavy drinking (that has not changed despite the working class communities that used to hold it together being destroyed and not replaced)
exposure to regular heavy drinking from a young age
acceptance of heavy drinking within family units
fewer diversions/reduced ability to enjoy past times/hobbies
earlier starters
reduced social mobility
long term economic depression
higher than normal levels of depression and mental health issues
feelings of helplessness, desertion, isolation and betrayal within the community

I do know that binge drinking in the north east is the highest in the country and for many people getting mortal is an acceptable past time and certainly an integral part of a decent night out. I’m sure some smart alec will be along to say these factors exits in many places but the fact that levels are so high suggests it has the worst impact in the NE.

Those are very negative reasons. Why do you assume that all alcohol consumption is a bad thing?

Quite simply, going out for the day or night and having a few beers with your mates is a very fun and enjoyable social event. Many people - myself included - remain perfectly well-behaved and considerate of others even after a few drinks. Just because a tiny proportion of drunks indulge in anti-social behaviour is no reason to demonise everyone who enjoys alcohol and impose draconian alcohol bans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those are very negative reasons. Why do you assume that all alcohol consumption is a bad thing?

I don't think he does. He says that binge drinking is a bad idea, not a few pints in the pub with your mates.

Alcohol consumption that drives people to fighting and to throwing up/urinating all over the place is bad, I would agree.

 

[DarloRich]

Those are very negative reasons. Why do you assume that all alcohol consumption is a bad thing?

Quite simply, going out for the day or night and having a few beers with your mates is a very fun and enjoyable social event. Many people - myself included - remain perfectly well-behaved and considerate of others even after a few drinks. Just because a tiny proportion of drunks indulge in anti-social behaviour is no reason to demonise everyone who enjoys alcohol and impose draconian alcohol bans.

I don't assume that at all! I do assume there is a problem within the north east specifically and this country in general with excessive (binge) alcohol consumption.

Oh and don't lump me in with the puritanical section of this board. I am more than happy to have a drink and for others to drink! Occasionally i may even drink to much :-0

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I don't think he does. He says that binge drinking is a bad idea, not a few pints in the pub with your mates.

Alcohol consumption that drives people to fighting and to throwing up/urinating all over the place is bad, I would agree.

Yes but as the official definition of "binge drinking" is consuming a mere 8 units (or 4 pints) in a single session then pretty much anyone who has an evening out in the pub is a binge drinker! The issue here is not how much people drink but the antisocial behaviour the tiny minority who've drunk too much get up to.

 

[meridian2]

I think that an outright ban is unnecessary; what we have at the moment works fine.

The problem comes from risk assessments and unnecessary paperwork before any police materialise on a scene involving binge drinking.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

What paperwork and risk assessments would they be?

 

[wensley]

I think that an outright ban is unnecessary; what we have at the moment works fine.

It clearly doesn't, i'm not sure what you're basing that statement on...

Actually, looking at the number of trains and the numbers packed onto them, we only appear to be referring to a few hundred sots, as not all will be in that state. When you compare that with the populations of the cities involved, it is not a huge number. I appreciate that is no help to those poor people trying to cope with them, but to draw the conclusion that most of the youth of the NE is beyond hope seems to be not substantiated, on this evidence.

Probably a few thousand, and I quite agree that this cannot necessarily speak for the NE as a whole (although more generally the figures suggest certain other trends). However, it doesn't take many drunk people to cause one hell of a problem.

Fixing the deep-rooted social problems of the NE is one thing, but bringing the situation in York under control shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility.

The thing that genuinely terrifies me as that there is a serious incident and myself or one of my colleagues are left carrying the can. Despite the fact that some of these people are utterly vile, the staff dealing with them go back time and time again for more, because all of us know that the 'normal' travelling public deserve better, and because we're all there to run a safe railway.

 

[yorkie]

In my travels (not necessarily by train) I always feel that the 'true drunks' tend to be in the more northern areas - most of the North East, Merseyside, Blackpool, Greater Manchester etc, not so much Yorkshire.

Of the places wensley mentioned, only Doncaster is in Yorkshire. And Doncaster, well that's hardly representative of Yorkshire

See attached the platform awaiting the last Boro last night, about 10mins before departure. Roughly an equal number the other side of the bridge, and that was a quiet night!

I note the temporary barriers across the platform with 'normal' passengers the other side of it. A few weeks ago I saw a train stop near the lift, and only when the 'normal' passengers had alighted were the hoards of drunks allowed to board. Is that still happening? I guess the aim is to prevent the scumbags giving people a hard time getting off (fortunately I had my bike with me one time; putting force behind the handlebars came in handy) The problem is I think they will suss what's going on as it will get predictable and may try to get the other side of the barrier in order to do what they love to do and rush on while people are trying to get off.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that an outright ban is unnecessary; what we have at the moment works fine.

It clearly doesn't, i'm not sure what you're basing that statement on...

Clearly not travelling on, or seeing the state of, the trains
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...The thing that genuinely terrifies me as that there is a serious incident and myself or one of my colleagues are left carrying the can....

Indeed. Our legal system is an absolute disgrace, so if such an incident occurs I'd have little confidence in a good outcome.

 

[wensley]

Of the places wensley mentioned, only Doncaster is in Yorkshire. And Doncaster, well that's hardly representative of Yorkshire

Indeed ... almost like a different universe

I note the temporary barriers across the platform with 'normal' passengers the other side of it. A few weeks ago I saw a train stop near the lift, and only when the 'normal' passengers had alighted were the hoards of drunks allowed to board. Is that still happening? I guess the aim is to prevent the scumbags giving people a hard time getting off (fortunately I had my bike with me one time; putting force behind the handlebars came in handy) The problem is I think they will suss what's going on as it will get predictable and may try to get the other side of the barrier in order to do what they love to do and rush on while people are trying to get off.

Yep, this happens for the 1916 and 2016 M'boro services.
Train is stopped short of a line of crowd barriers, passengers detrained, normals entrained into First Class, barriers then moved and the hordes are walked down to the train. Not only does this stop the scrum of passengers boarding/alighting, it removed that biggest PTI risk of a train having to run in past a crowd of drunks, who are invariably very hard to keep a safe distance from the platform edge.

 

[DarloRich]

Fixing the deep-rooted social problems of the NE is one thing, but bringing the situation in York under control shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility.

The thing that genuinely terrifies me as that there is a serious incident and myself or one of my colleagues are left carrying the can. Despite the fact that some of these people are utterly vile, the staff dealing with them go back time and time again for more, because all of us know that the 'normal' travelling public deserve better, and because we're all there to run a safe railway.

Indeed - Although i am not sure what that looks like. You cant stop people going for a night out and whilst you could stop them travelling does that not merely move the problem?

I would be interested in hearing from the police on their thoughts as they must have a wider issue in York to deal with. I wonder if getting the drunks on the train is enough for them to move on the problem.

 

[wensley]

Indeed - Although i am not sure what that looks like. You cant stop people going for a night out and whilst you could stop them travelling does that not merely move the problem?

I would be interested in hearing from the police on their thoughts as they must have a wider issue in York to deal with. I wonder if getting the drunks on the train is enough for them to move on the problem.

The meeting on Tuesday was to address the wider issue that York on a Saturday is now far from appealing for families, shoppers and tourists, and addressed the antisocial behavior being displayed in general.

Arguably the TOCs simply end up mopping up the ones that manage to make it back to the station at the end of their night and this is only part of the problem - but it's the problem that affects me, and probably imports the greatest risk to the morons and those around them.

There's limited alternatives for many of these looking for a regular, straightfoward day-trip, so by cracking down in York you may limit the problem to a certain extent. To me that looks like:
- Dry trains to/from on problem routes for a period of a month (word soon gets round)
- Heavy Police presence in the city centre and at the station
- Blanket enforcement of unfit to travel (nothing like a £100+ taxi fare to put someone off coming again)
- Zero tolerance on low level antisocial behaviour (get them under Section 5)
- Forcing the license holders to stop passing the buck and to refuse those who are too drunk already ... they can blame the railway / supermarkets all they like, but if people really are turning up hammered at 1000 or 1100, why aren't they out on there ear?

 

[londonbridge]

Guy on a London Overground train drinking a can of Fosters last night. How many people have actually been done under the Tfl ban as I can't recall ever reading of someone prosecuted and/or fined.

 

[sheff1]

Of the places wensley mentioned, only Doncaster is in Yorkshire.

Middlesbrough and Thornaby are also in Yorkshire.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The services need to be more awkward and take longer to the problem towns. Barrow-in-Furness is like one big green room for the Jeremy Kyle show yet it's poor train service and the inordinate time it takes to get to and from there mean few venture out of the place.
Maybe if the service from Middlesbrough was rerouted and called at every stop then the two hour journey time may put all but the diehards off.

 

[Darandio]

Middlesbrough and Thornaby are also in Yorkshire.

Only ceremonial.

 

[wensley]

Middlesbrough and Thornaby are also in Yorkshire.

They flamin' well aren't!! They're in Cleveland

 

[yorksrob]

The services need to be more awkward and take longer to the problem towns. Barrow-in-Furness is like one big green room for the Jeremy Kyle show yet it's poor train service and the inordinate time it takes to get to and from there mean few venture out of the place.
Maybe if the service from Middlesbrough was rerouted and called at every stop then the two hour journey time may put all but the diehards off.

The local train service in Yorkshire of an evening is already not fit for purpose. You're proposing making it even worse !

Anyhow, the problem services are already dry trains, so that's the problem solved apparently.

 

[Mag_seven]

Guy on a London Overground train drinking a can of Fosters last night. How many people have actually been done under the Tfl ban as I can't recall ever reading of someone prosecuted and/or fined.

TfL alcohol ban does not apply on London Overground as NR conditions apply. That said however I have seen alcohol consumed on tube trains leading to the conclusion that the TfL rule never seems to be enforced.

 

[wensley]

Anyhow, the problem services are already dry trains, so that's the problem solved apparently.

Which is pointless when York's publicans have spent the previous 10hrs pouring booze down their necks and counting the wads of cash!!

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes but as the official definition of "binge drinking" is consuming a mere 8 units (or 4 pints) in a single session then pretty much anyone who has an evening out in the pub is a binge drinker! The issue here is not how much people drink but the antisocial behaviour the tiny minority who've drunk too much get up to.

To some of us, having 'a mere 4 pints' seems more than enough. No wonder we have a problem if people consider that 'normal'.

Why can't we drink sensibly, like most other countries.

 

[sheff1]

Middlesbrough and Thornaby are also in Yorkshire.

Only ceremonial.

They flamin' well aren't!! They're in Cleveland

Ceremonial counties are the real counties. The northen boundary of Yorkshire is the River Tees. Cleveland pseudo-county only existed from 1974-1996.