There seems to be a lot of confusion/ hypocrisy here.
One minute HSTs are The Greatest Trains Ever and IEP is boring/ plastic/ Voyager-clone that wont even be able to make a decent cappuccino... the next minute people are complaining that the MML is being saddled with these dreadful old HSTs and not getting the 21st century stock that it needs.
One minute people are complaining that HS2 is a London scheme, since its all about faster journeys from Yorkshire to the capital... then next they are complaining that Yorkshire will lose out due to the pause on MML electrification because we wont see faster journeys to London (i.e. journey improvements on HS2 only benefit London whilst faster speeds on an electrified MML benefit Yorkshire?)
I know that public opinion is generally to moan about politicians (and theres plenty of whinging about the Tories), but the more I think about this, the more I think its the railways problem. Despite the continuing spending cuts in other parts of the economy (twelve billion a year from welfare payments to children and those of working age?), spending on the railway hadnt been cut. I dont think enthusiasts realise this - outside of our bubble there are some savage cuts taking place - if the worst case scenario for the railway is that it keeps the same budget (but can't do as much with that money) then we've got off lightly.
All that theyve done is fix the amount of that spending. Network Rail had committed to doing lots of schemes with the money... the cost of those schemes have gone up... now theyre having to decide which schemes to target with that money (since their spiralling bills mean they cant do everything promised).
Spin that to be about how bad politicians are if you want, but if the railway had been able to deliver the things it promised to at the price it promised in the timescales it promised then we wouldnt be having this thread.
Whether the blame lies with top brass at Network Rail (to use a tabloid cliché), contractors, Orangemen, scope creep... I dont know, but I think that the blame is on the side of the railway here, rather than the politicians. Weve seen a time of relatively low inflation, significant drop in fuel prices etc, so I dont think that there are many external excuses for why the costs appear to be going up so much.
But given the delays/ overspends weve had on relatively shorter/ simpler electrification around Manchester, would you trust Network Rail to deliver hundreds of miles of committed electrification in the timescale they agreed to?
Maybe Network Rail over-promised, maybe they made too many assumptions, maybe they didnt realise that the lack of major electrification projects in recent years meant that there was a lack of experienced people capable of dealing with major electrification projects, maybe they allowed other costs (resignalling, new loops, grade separation) to get lumped into the bill for electrification, maybe they missed a decimal point... the fact is that the railway got it wrong, the railway over-promised.
There may be many reasons to hate Cameron/ Osbourne, but I dont think you can expect them to give a poorly performing railway a blank cheque when its failing to deliver things on budget and on time. For me, this isnt as bad as the pause on all infrastructure at the start of the previous parliament (when they delayed Crossrail further something worth remembering in between all of the predictable the south always gets what it wants comments).
If you want to blame anyone, blame Network Rail for playing into the hands of the Tories by giving them a perfect excuse to distrust the railway/ privatise the railway. We had our chance, we blew it.
However, I think that the announcement should have referred to continuing electrification commitments like the Valley Lines, Coventry Nuneaton, Walsall Rugely, Manchester Bolton (Wigan) Preston Blackpool etc because my twitter stream is full of people moaning about nothing for those outside the south east.
As far as I understand it, theres no plans to cancel the electrification to places like Bolton, but the two schemes oop north cancelled, one down south going ahead headlines paint a misleading picture. Poor PR on behalf of the Government/ NR, or a media who like to ignore facts that get in the way of a simple stori?
As the budget clearly won't do everything planned, you have 2 options
1) Increase the budget (not a goer)
2) Prioritise your existing budget.
Completing the GWML clearly makes sense as this is far further down the line than the MML is, and Network Rail clearly aren't capable of managing too many projects at the same time. MML electrification will happen, and hopefully when it does go ahead, NR will have learnt some lessons
Agreed
I take from this statement that the North will suffer whilst London still enjoys HS2. A sad day for investment priorities.
So only London enjoys HS2 (and the North doesnt)?
Yet MML electrification would have benefitted the North?
Hang on, I'm not against HS2. I'm just stating the simple fact that right now the public appetite for HS2 when there are huge cuts and NR costs are spiralling (even if they aren't the same people building HS2) is very low. However, if you spent 2bn extra a year on education, health or indeed the current network the public opinion will be better. Not saying it would be spent there
If the level of argument is should we spend the money on X or should we spend the money on more Nurses then the NHS is always going to win and we should forget about any transport investment.
Same with should we buy new trains or fund primary schools. Bringing health/ education in to it doesnt make for strong argument.
Costs spiralling on the GWML electrification making the argument for HS2 stronger or any other new line is beyond me. I just think it strengthens the argument for less fragmentation and bureaucracy
Nobody is going to argue in favour of more fragmentation and more bureaucracy thats just rhetoric...
...but funnily enough if you change the word to devolution, people suddenly like the idea of fragmentation.
If the Government announce a Yorkshire division of Network Rail that chooses how to spend its allocated monies, people will swing round to the idea (rightly or wrongly).
True enough, but nevertheless interesting that GW was given priority over MML by the Labour government even though MML had the better benefit-cost figures and now a Tory government is apparently committed to keeping going on GW even if that means ditching or severely delaying MML and TPE
Good point the MML electrification has always been playing catch up to the GWML whilst theres boots on the ground and new electric stock ordered on the Paddington line, the MML project is miles behind if you were going to cancel/ postpone/ pause one of the two then its a no-brainer (and I say that as someone who lives in Sheffield)
The challenge for Network Rail is surely clear. If you want the money for rail development, prove you're not a bottomless pit that wastes funds and fails to deliver. Surely that is an entirrky readonable position?
Agreed the cheque is still the same size the problem is that Network Rail cant deliver what they said they could for that money.
I'll probably think of more as time goes on, but one impact it will have is on the public's support of HS2. Make absolutely no mistake, this will have a massive impact with people seeing one set of plans being shelved whilst HS2 marches on. Yes I know we are talking about separate projects and budgets, and that HS2 does eventually bring capacity improvements to the classic network...
<snip>
...Expect a firestorm for HS2 from increasing numbers. And expect plenty more North vs South accusations both here and further afield!
This announcement is nowt to do with HS2, however much people want to drag it into the argument.
all the public up here in the North and the Midlands will see is that their planned improvements can't be afforded, whilst that big old HS line pointing London bound is still on track
You know that the MML is also pointing London bound?
An electrified Yorkshire East Midlands London would benefit the North and the Midlands (and not the capital), but an electrified HS2 running Yorkshire East Midlands London would only benefit London?
HS2 is, and always has been, driven by diktats from Brussels that date back the time of the flawed decisions that drove a single currency for Europe, disregarding the manifest flaws in that plan. Which is why the Netherlands hi-speed railway is a white elephant, France's loses money hand-over-first etc.
???
Very possibly. Does anyone think there is something cosy about DafT's relationship with Hitachi on this one?
People are still using
DafT?
Not much of a "Northern Powerhouse" if you can't even stick up some wires between two of the biggest cities involved, but frankly that doesn't surprise me. It's reasonably clear that "Northern Powerhouse", just like "Long Term Economic Plan", was a soundbite rather than an actual policy.
Theyve just put the wires up between two of the biggest cities involved in Gideons Powerhouse (Manchester and Liverpool), to be fair.
I agree that theres a lot of soundbites and hot air when it comes to standing in a hi-vis jacket and repeating Long Term Economic Plan until people start to believe you but we have seen
some electrification up north.
On the subject of the South West, I wonder what effect all of this will have on the promises made regarding the Dawlish situation.
I think that we can forget about schemes like Okehampton, whilst costs are spiralling on heavyweight projects, sorry.
Why can't both lines be done, there's enough money
Theres not.
HS2's costs might of had an effect according to some. StopHS2 are saying the government knew this would happen 3-years ago.
StopHS2 are saying a lot of things, like any rabble/ campaign group desperate to focus media attention to their cause. But if you can tell me how HS2 has caused Network Rails budget for CP5 electrification to spiral out of control then please share with the rest of the class...
I'm sorry but this whole things smells of cost cutting, what better way to save Billions by not spending it.
The Government arent cutting the funding they are asking Network Rail to prioritise what they do with that money.
Whilst today's announcements are disappointing, it wasn't exactly unexpected given the current government's quest to reduce spending.
In some ways though, the decision makes some sense. Firstly, with regard to the MML, there wasn't an obvious use for the Meredians post electrification and they will continue to be used on the MML for now. Of course, the issue of the remaining HST's will need to be addressed but hopefully, this will only be a short term measure.
As regards the pennine route, my understanding is that this has been put on hold more to re-scope the project. Just wiring up the existing lines won't really address the pressing capacity issues on that route.
I wouldn't be entirely surprised if either or both projects will be back in the frame in the next few years, being trumpeted as a brand new initiative & hailed as a result of a certain political parties' economic policies!
Sensible post I completely agree
It all seems very political. The lib dems gone and Cleggs' seat loses electrification
The Sheffield only got electrification agreed because of Nick Clegg/ Sheffield is seeing its electrification cancelled now that Clegg is no longer in power argument isnt one I buy into.
As someone living in his constituency, whos had dozens of Lib Dem leaflets through the letterbox, I can assure you that the electrification was never something that the Lib Dems made a big song and dance about. Pupil premiums, school meals and the increased income tax threshold were the main things his leaflets were boasting about (as well as local things like pot-holes/ bus shelters) if the electrification was on them then it was never prominent.
The MML needed doing the fact that Clegg had a Sheffield seat (albeit no stations that would have seen electrification in it) really wasnt a factor so the loss of Clegg wont have been a consideration in the pausing of it.
So I've got to stand for nearly an hour on Off-Peak trains between Manchester and Leeds for, rather than just the next few years, the entire forseeable future with the problem getting worse as demand rises and my fares continuing their relentless upward march to pay for... no improvement at all. Somebody correct me, please?
No improvements at all on the Manchester Leeds line? Apart from the recent 25% increase in frequency when the service went up from four trains an hour to five trains an hour? And Ive not seen any confirmation that the proposed sixth train an hour wont be happening (?). But, apart from that...
HS2 is of no use to anyone currently using the MML unless you live within 5 miles of either Meadowhall or Toton
In terms of HS2 the East Midlands is very low down on the list of priorities
Your continued complaining about HS2 on a thread that has nothing to do with HS2 would sound better if you moved on from the I dont like HS2; it wont serve my home town level of debate.
It wont serve central Sheffield either, but I can deal with the fact and accept that Sheffield (whilst bigger then Derby) isnt big enough to warrant diverting the high speed line through the middle of.
The spend has not been cut, in fact McLoughlin confirmed the CP5 spend would stay at the original £38.5 billion.
The question is what does that money buy, and how long will it take.
NR doesn't have the resources to deliver the full set of projects, even if it had unlimited money.
Very true - shame that a significant number of posts in this thread are written as though the government really have announced financial cuts though. All the suggestions about wasting funds on HS2 therefore becoming even more irrelevant to the problem...
^^ best two posts on the thread ^^
Great Western has the oldest fleet on average out of any of the DfT franchised Tocs. The East Coast Main Line benefited from electrification in the late 1980s/early 1990s. The West Coast Main Line has undergone route modernisation in the last decade.
I do not see that this should be a "North v South" thing because the reality is that the South West is far detached from London & the South East as the North is, so it frustrates me to hear that people on this thread are seemingly trying to turn it into one. The fact of the matter is that the South West of England has seen a fair amount of under-investment in terms of transport projects in general, and that upgrades to the railway in that area are rightly being deemed a higher priority given the limited resources available.
Because with Derby they are much bigger cities and deliver more to the national economy.
I think you'll find the population of Bristol (not to mention the bordering Somerset and Gloucestershire fringes) to be quite significant and also delivering the highest GDP/head outside London.
This isnt about the east Midlands & Sheffield / the M62 corridor versus the Thames Valley & south Wales.
The thing about enthusiasts is that they can always find an excuse for new infrastructure.
- That town has a regular bus service to the nearest city? Thats evidence of demand; we should open a railway.
- That town has no bus service to the nearest city? We need to build a railway to provide this unmet link in this public transport "desert".
- That town is rich with lots of jobs? We need a railway to serve these wealthy commuters.
- That town is poor with few jobs? We need a railway to improve social mobility and tackle depravation.
...in short, the answer is always a railway (if you ask enthusiasts).
So, you can make a case for the MML over the GWML, but (as someone who lives in Sheffield) I can accept that the GWML is probably the one with the best case for working on first. Partly because of the work done already, partly because of the tie in with Crossrail in the Thames Valley, partly because of the fiftyish DMUs freed up in the old Thames Trains area, partly because it sees many of the busiest trains in the UK.
Im not going to be partisan about it; whilst Id like my local line to see the investment, I can see the bigger picture.
the skill base will have been expanded by then to cope.
