Network Rail upgrade delayed by government (BBC News Article)

[me123]

Not much of a "Northern Powerhouse" if you can't even stick up some wires between two of the biggest cities involved, but frankly that doesn't surprise me. It's reasonably clear that "Northern Powerhouse", just like "Long Term Economic Plan", was a soundbite rather than an actual policy.

 

[Mojo]

Why is GWML 'prioty' but MML isn't??

There are clear signs "on the ground" of electrification work for electrification on the Great Western. OHLE supports have been put in along the route, and at locations such as Reading the wires have even been put up in the depot.

The Great Western has not had an upgrade in a significant amount of time. There has been considerable investment in railway lines serving the North in recent years and two of the three major main-lines from London are already electrified.

In terms of the fleet, trains for the Great Western have already started to be built. Three of the 10 in the DfT's overcrowding "league table" are on the Great Western.

Simply put, the projects are at completely different stages.

 

[Qwerty133]

For the MML rolling stock, although the Meridians can stay for at least another 20ish years, the HSTs need to be replaced within the next 5 years, it is completely unacceptable for 40+ year old trains to be running on a mainline, especially as such trains have never received a proper refurbishment, and still have exactly the same seats that they were built with.
Personally I think Network Rail should focus on continuing the Sheffield branch, allowing 2 trains per hour to turn electric, freeing up enough stock to completely displace the HSTs, while I would also stop the direct service to Corby, to be replaced by a 153 shuttle to and from Kettering, with the direct service instead diverting to Leicester to also allow this to be electrified.
I personally would go for Sheffield, over Nottingham because this will allow trains to access current depots.

 

[muddythefish]

There are clear signs "on the ground" of electrification work for electrification on the Great Western. OHLE supports have been put in along the route, and at locations such as Reading the wires have even been put up in the depot.

The Great Western has not had an upgrade in a significant amount of time. There has been considerable investment in railway lines serving the North in recent years and two of the three major main-lines from London are already electrified.

In terms of the fleet, trains for the Great Western have already started to be built. Three of the 10 in the DfT's overcrowding "league table" are on the Great Western.

Simply put, the projects are at completely different stages.

The Pacers I ride on most days tell me different while the north in general has been woefully under-invested for decades.

The MML has always been a "Cinderella" railway and it and the big cites it serves deserve better than being kicked into the long grass - again.

 

[QueensCurve]

It seems that the main priority with regards to the GWML now is to complete as much as possible of London to Swindon to give the Bi Mode IEPs something to run on, with Oxford and Newbury now likely to be pushed back a little further. Great for IEP, not so for everything else across the west - Delaying the GWML LTV Electrification will of course delay the improvements across the West Country and unit cascade. GWML Intercity Electrification however will only release a handful of HSTs for now.

Now we couldn't have any of those shiny new Government procured IEPs sat doing nowt while... as the BBCs 'age concerned' Paul Clifton put it, ''Have the Embarrassment of having shiny new trains sat doing nothing while cramped and congested 40 year old High Speed Trains run past''...

Given that Oxford and Newbury are commuter routes of the sort that form the bread and butter of railway electrification, those ought perhaps to be the priority?

And given that [some] IEPs are bi-mode, and given that bi-mode rewrites the laws of physics, surely they don't have to wait for electrification?

 

[muddythefish]

For the MML rolling stock, although the Meridians can stay for at least another 20ish years, the HSTs need to be replaced within the next 5 years, it is completely unacceptable for 40+ year old trains to be running on a mainline, especially as such trains have never received a proper refurbishment, and still have exactly the same seats that they were built with.
Personally I think Network Rail should focus on continuing the Sheffield branch, allowing 2 trains per hour to turn electric, freeing up enough stock to completely displace the HSTs, while I would also stop the direct service to Corby, to be replaced by a 153 shuttle to and from Kettering, with the direct service instead diverting to Leicester to also allow this to be electrified.
I personally would go for Sheffield, over Nottingham because this will allow trains to access current depots.

This has to be joke, surely ?

 

[fgwrich]

There are clear signs "on the ground" of electrification work for electrification on the Great Western. OHLE supports have been put in along the route, and at locations such as Reading the wires have even been put up in the depot.

The Great Western has not had an upgrade in a significant amount of time. There has been considerable investment in railway lines serving the North in recent years and two of the three major main-lines from London are already electrified.

In terms of the fleet, trains for the Great Western have already started to be built. Three of the 10 in the DfT's overcrowding "league table" are on the Great Western.

Simply put, the projects are at completely different stages.

Indeed. And although the MML has electrification already in place out as far as Bedford, any work to that would be effectively a tag on to the existing infrastructure - The 1st part of the GWML is also undergoing modernisation and upgrading to accommodate CrossRail, so it makes more sense to keep disruption to an almost minimum by working on both projects at the same time than a 1 or the other case, and causing further disruption to the GWML in the future. Although personally I would have concentrated on the LTV stuff first than the mainline, but the construction testing and delivery of IEP is rather dictating what's going on first and where - Swindon / Didcot to Reading and North Pole is supposed to be also be a test bed for IEP too.

 

[Caravanman]

"A few weeks ago, you voted. Now we don't need to make you happy. Now we can do what we please, suckers..."

 

[Mojo]

The Pacers I ride on most days tell me different while the north in general has been woefully under-invested for decades.

The MML has always been a "Cinderella" railway and it and the big cites it serves deserve better than being kicked into the long grass - again.

Great Western has the oldest fleet on average out of any of the DfT franchised Tocs. The East Coast Main Line benefited from electrification in the late 1980s/early 1990s. The West Coast Main Line has undergone route modernisation in the last decade.

I do not see that this should be a "North v South" thing because the reality is that the South West is far detached from London & the South East as the North is, so it frustrates me to hear that people on this thread are seemingly trying to turn it into one. The fact of the matter is that the South West of England has seen a fair amount of under-investment in terms of transport projects in general, and that upgrades to the railway in that area are rightly being deemed a higher priority given the limited resources available.

 

[route:oxford]

Given that Oxford and Newbury are commuter routes of the sort that form the bread and butter of railway electrification, those ought perhaps to be the priority?

They should be...

But here's a quote from "The Oxford Times" that brings some idea of the attacks that local councillors are making against the upgrading of the railways...

On Tuesday councillors on the west area planning committee narrowly granted permission.

But yesterday city council leader Bob Price, a committee member who voted against the scheme, said he had called in the application to the planning review committee with the backing of 11 councillors. A spokesman for Oxford City Council confirmed that would mean the planning permission granted would be put on hold.

Mr Price said: “I called the application in because I still do not believe the designs are good enough and there are not enough safeguards in place for residents [with homes behind the proposed path]. The review committee may shoot my objections down, but that is now for them to decide.” Objections to raising the path – which runs behind homes on the east side of the railway tracks – came when people from Hayfield Road said it could threaten the structure of an existing wall.

Councillors also criticised the bridge’s solid sides, which Network Rail said were needed to comply with its use as a bridleway.

Planning process had been delayed for at least 9 months at this stage by the Labour Party in Oxford. They were also using a bridleway crossing as tort to demand a ramped crossing at Hinksey.

So before the Labour Party whines about the lack of progress in the North, they should look at the behaviours of their own councillors in the South. The Lib Dems haven't been much better (see other threads) and the Green Party are on the warpath about temporary buildings to be used during rail upgrades in Oxford too.

It looks like the noise of the few in one of the wealthiest parts of the country is harming the majority in the rest of the nation...

 

[yorksrob]

I do not see that this should be a "North v South" thing because the reality is that the South West is far detached from London & the South East as the North is, so it frustrates me to hear that people on this thread are seemingly trying to turn it into one. The fact of the matter is that the South West of England has seen a fair amount of under-investment in terms of transport projects in general, and that upgrades to the railway in that area are rightly being deemed a higher priority given the limited resources available.

Yes, that's a fair point. The West has been rather left out of things for several years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

especially as such trains have never received a proper refurbishment, and still have exactly the same seats that they were built with.

They may be able to swap them with FGW's refurbed ones (not that that would be an improvement in my book, but it is refurbishment !)

On the subject of the South West, I wonder what effect all of this will have on the promises made regarding the Dawlish situation.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I know South West is not like South East at all trainwise too.
There's even a few Pacers in Devon, although slightly nicer it shows no new trains. Northern haven't got new trains either.

But it's the mainlines to consider, just because there's wires at Leeds doesn't mean that Swansea, Cardiff and Bristol should be a prioty at the expense of Sheffield, Nottingham and Leicester.

The amount of work done on GWML must be minimal.
Why can't both lines be done, there's enough money.
The TPE announcement is typical as it was used all through the election that the line is important and the similar "HS3" (if they weren't the same thing), would show Tories care.

HS2's costs might of had an effect according to some. StopHS2 are saying the government knew this would happen 3-years ago.

 

[DarloRich]

The amount of work done on GWML must be minimal.
Why can't both lines be done, there's enough money.
The TPE announcement is typical as it was used all through the election that the line is important and the similar "HS3" (if they weren't the same thing), would show Tories care.

HS2's costs might of had an effect according to some. StopHS2 are saying the government knew this would happen 3-years ago.

I don't wish to be rude but you haven't really grasped the concept around the announcements today have you? Read the statement and some of the BBC articles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems that the main priority with regards to the GWML now is to complete as much as possible of London to Swindon to give the Bi Mode IEPs something to run on, with Oxford and Newbury now likely to be pushed back a little further. Great for IEP, not so for everything else across the west - Delaying the GWML LTV Electrification will of course delay the improvements across the West Country and unit cascade. GWML Intercity Electrification however will only release a handful of HSTs for now.

Now we couldn't have any of those shiny new Government procured IEPs sat doing nowt while... as the BBCs 'age concerned' Paul Clifton put it, ''Have the Embarrassment of having shiny new trains sat doing nothing while cramped and congested 40 year old High Speed Trains run past''...

You may very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[NSEFAN]

GrimsbyPacer, money can't poof engineers into existence. You need skilled people to do the job and these people don't exist in large numbers. If we had a rolling electrification programme to maintain the skill set then perhaps we wouldn't be finding ourselves in this situation every time a new project gets going...

 

[Mojo]

But it's the mainlines to consider, just because there's wires at Leeds doesn't mean that Swansea, Cardiff and Bristol should be a prioty at the expense of Sheffield, Nottingham and Leicester.

Why should Sheffield, Nottingham and Leicester be put a priority in front of Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea?

The amount of work done on GWML must be minimal.

Much, much, much more than on the Midland Main Line, and that's not even to mention the trains that are currently being built.

 

[daniel3982]

From the full report in Hansard (referenced above):

Mr Patrick McLoughlin:
Anybody who goes today to Sheffield’s Victoria station will see a station that has been rebuilt as a result of this Government’s investment.

eh???????

Even if he means Sheffield Midland that was refurbished before this Government came into power.

 

[al.currie93]

It looks like the noise of the few in one of the wealthiest parts of the country is harming the majority in the rest of the nation...

No change from usual there then :P

Mr McLoughlin seems a little confused.
He says:


And then says he's 'pausing' large chunks of that investment. Seems very odd.
And what does this mean for rolling stock on the MML? Refurbished HST? LHCS? Bi-mode IEP running in diesel mode?

Mr McLoughlin is a fool in my opinion... I have many things I'd like to say to him and I'd probably cause offence if I said them! I also note how he says that 'Consecutive governments failed to invest...' - Labour weren't perfect, but surely his own government in the past (and now) were just as guilty? Arguably more so actually...

 

[yorksrob]

Mr McLoughlin is a fool in my opinion... I have many things I'd like to say to him and I'd probably cause offence if I said them! I also note how he says that 'Consecutive governments failed to invest...' - Labour weren't perfect, but surely his own government in the past (and now) were just as guilty? Arguably more so actually...

A common Conservative mind trick. I seem to recall Mr Hammond complaining once about how BR were kept on a shoe string, without mentioning that it was his party that kept them there a lot of the time.

Anyway, I'm willing to give Mr McLoughlin the benefit of the doubt as he strikes me as quite pro-rail. We could certainly do a lot worse.

 

[muddythefish]

Why should Sheffield, Nottingham and Leicester be put a priority in front of Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea?

Much, much, much more than on the Midland Main Line, and that's not even to mention the trains that are currently being built.

Because with Derby they are much bigger cities and deliver more to the national economy.

 

[Xavi]

Because with Derby they are much bigger cities and deliver more to the national economy.

I think you'll find the population of Bristol (not to mention the bordering Somerset and Gloucestershire fringes) to be quite significant and also delivering the highest GDP/head outside London.

 

[overthewater]

I'm sorry but this whole things smells of cost cutting, what better way to save Billions by not spending it.

 

[Polarbear]

Whilst today's announcements are disappointing, it wasn't exactly unexpected given the current government's quest to reduce spending.

In some ways though, the decision makes some sense. Firstly, with regard to the MML, there wasn't an obvious use for the Meredians post electrification and they will continue to be used on the MML for now. Of course, the issue of the remaining HST's will need to be addressed but hopefully, this will only be a short term measure.

As regards the pennine route, my understanding is that this has been put on hold more to re-scope the project. Just wiring up the existing lines won't really address the pressing capacity issues on that route.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if either or both projects will be back in the frame in the next few years, being trumpeted as a brand new initiative & hailed as a result of a certain political parties' economic policies!

 

[Grimsby town]

It all seems very political. The lib dems gone and Cleggs' seat loses electrification. I always believed that the electrification projects were to ambitious and tried to please as much of the country as possible.

Perhaps this means they'll concentrate on one area of the country and do it well eg doing all the Thames Valley branches, Bristol metro lines and the Valley lines before moving on to the areas around Sheffield, Nottingham and Leeds in CP6.

 

[Starmill]

So I've got to stand for nearly an hour on Off-Peak trains between Manchester and Leeds for, rather than just the next few years, the entire forseeable future with the problem getting worse as demand rises and my fares continuing their relentless upward march to pay for... no improvement at all. Somebody correct me, please?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Whilst today's announcements are disappointing, it wasn't exactly unexpected given the current government's quest to reduce spending.

In some ways though, the decision makes some sense. Firstly, with regard to the MML, there wasn't an obvious use for the Meredians post electrification and they will continue to be used on the MML for now. Of course, the issue of the remaining HST's will need to be addressed but hopefully, this will only be a short term measure.

As regards the pennine route, my understanding is that this has been put on hold more to re-scope the project. Just wiring up the existing lines won't really address the pressing capacity issues on that route.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if either or both projects will be back in the frame in the next few years, being trumpeted as a brand new initiative & hailed as a result of a certain political parties' economic policies!

I would be genuinely shocked if the government cancels MML completely as it will be at the top of the transport section of Labours 2020 election manifesto if they did (something like "Labour will electrify the Midland Mainline from Bedford to Corby, Liecester, Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield and on to Leeds and Doncaster that the current government has failed to do).

 

[LTJ87]

Here's the statement from East Midlands Trains on the cancellation of electrification:

https://twitter.com/tombarton/status/614112859623133184

 

[Rapidash]

Cornish resignalling pushed back, electrification of the TV's going a snails pace.... why do I get the feeling I'll be travelling on a D train to Exeter soon......?

 

[3141]

So I've got to stand for nearly an hour on Off-Peak trains between Manchester and Leeds for, rather than just the next few years, the entire forseeable future with the problem getting worse as demand rises and my fares continuing their relentless upward march to pay for... no improvement at all. Somebody correct me, please?

There's a solution: put the fares up even more: to the level where demand stops rising.

But it's clear that one of the problems is the lack of sufficient engineers with the skills required to carry out electrification projects. In which case, something has to be postponed.

There are several good reasons given earlier on here why GWML should go ahead, since work is already underway. Just imagine the outcry, here and elsewhere, if a project which was being undertaken was stopped and another one started. It would be some time before the second one could actually start, even if a silly decision was made to start something else, because it has to be designed and equipment and materials have to be ordered.

Despite the sneers in some posts about the government not wanting the "shiny new trains" to be sitting in sidings, the fact is that if they were built but could not be used that would be another waste of money. Yes, there is a theoretical alternative of using IEPs destined for the GWML on the East Coast instead, but the depots would not be ready, you would have wasted some of the potential of the IC225s by withdrawing them early, and you'd have to make the HSTs on the Great Western last for longer.

There are too many people around who think they know so much and believe there's always something underhand about any government decision they don't like, and as a result they get to be incapable of understanding the facts.

 

[Stats]

- What about the plans to electrify east of Leeds towards York? Given VTEC's hopes to run additional services from Bradford & Harrogate, will a delay to electrification on this section scupper these plans?

Why should it have any affect? Leeds to Harrogate was never going to be electrified and is to be run with bi-modes. Leeds to Bradford is already electrified so can be run with either 800 or 801 stock. The Bradford service is a 2 hourly extension of the Peterborough - Wakefield - Leeds service.

 

[HowardGWR]

It all seems very political. The lib dems gone and Cleggs' seat loses electrification. I always believed that the electrification projects were to ambitious and tried to please as much of the country as possible.

Perhaps this means they'll concentrate on one area of the country and do it well eg doing all the Thames Valley branches, Bristol metro lines and the Valley lines before moving on to the areas around Sheffield, Nottingham and Leeds in CP6.

See my emphasis to your post. Why would one electrify a service that is only going to be a half-hearted half hourly one at best?