"Duty" to seek out the guard (again!)

[Bletchleyite]

It sounds like it's similar to Northern's pseudo-PF scheme, which I personally don't believe should be legal. There is a legal framework for Penalty Fares and for prosecutions, and in my view it should be followed in all cases.

(It's basically akin to "pay me £80 and I won't press charges". If someone has broken a law in my eyes they should be prosecuted or dealt with via a legally defined fixed penalty such as a PF, and I don't agree that you should be able to effectively pay a demanded bribe in order to avoid it - be that in relation to railway ticketing or any other crime)

 

[Agent_c]

A much simpler way would be to just have a TVM at every station which sells a full range of tickets and takes the accepted forms of payment and make sure they are properly maintained.

I don't think that's simpler in all cases, as at some stops you have to worry about the security of the TVM.

On a manned train vandalism and attempts at theft are much less likely.

 

[Starmill]

ATW themselves have finally worked out that there are millions of pounds walking out the door, or short-faring every month, and are (at last) trying to reverse generations of a "Pay when challenged, and even then only the minimum if forced to" mentality from, I have to say, all classes using the train. It's not the drunken scrotes from the Valleys who do it, but the indignant housewifes and pensioners as well.

An attitude whose sources I suspect may lie in the 'Paytrain' era. Although there is more they could do (cash+card TVMs for a start), ATW have taken a much better approach than some *cough* Northern. Someone posted a list of Southern managed stations without a TVM or ticket office recently, and there were only four, one of which was Doleham. How many SWT stations have only a machine that doesn't take cash (almost none)? Look at the software in use on a London Overground TVM and compare that to the Northern rubbish. The technology is there, it just requires the investment - and then nobody has an excuse.

The alternative approach is the full-on Merseyrail thing, which absolutely means nobody has an excuse ever, but I consider a bit of a luxury South Wales might not be able to afford.
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I've come across a couple who quite strongly objected when, after having sat down for 15 minutes and no one passing through, I went to the back of the train and knocked on the cab door to ask for a ticket.

Exactly, the problem is that you don't want to put yourself at risk of being embarrassed by someone who does have a grump on, even though mostly the response might be helpful and/or apologetic. Once bitten...

 

[CC 72100]

An attitude whose sources I suspect may lie in the 'Paytrain' era...

For some maybe, although I imagine that for a not insignificant amount of people it's just they don't like paying for something that they can get away with not paying for.

For every person who leaves from a station without sufficient purchasing facilities, I guess that there are at least 2 more who leave from a station with tvm/office etc but just decide to chance it. A fair few people don't like paying for travel. Simple.

 

[Starmill]

...wanting to ensure usage of your local rural station is adequately recorded...

I think that one's a little limited in scope, but there are at least two of us!

 

[Tetchytyke]

For some maybe, although I imagine that for a not insignificant amount of people it's just they don't like paying for something that they can get away with not paying for.

It probably is, but conflicting guidance and obligations are not the way to sort that out. On the one hand you're told not to approach railway staff in the middle of safety-critical duties, but on the other hand you're told that if you don't approach the guard to buy a ticket you could be charged a £100 penalty. If the guard is in the cab how is a passenger supposed to know what they are up to?

I have no issue with penalty charges to people trying it on. If you walk past a TVM and then try to pay by card then the £100 penalty is reasonable. If you walk past a ticket window then the £100 penalty is reasonable. But if you want to pay with cash and there isn't a machine/ticket window that accepts cash, I don't think a penalty charge is fair.

 

[DeeGee]

When, I wonder, will we reach the point that cash acceptance can be removed? Can't be far off. It's costly and inconvenient and rather causes an issue in this kind of area.

Something about acceptance of online-only payment cards would normally fit in here.

Usually followed some old guff about how paying for a ticket is nothing to do with the operation of a railway.

 

[TUC]

For every person travelling with 14 children and 27 pieces of luggage, there are a dozen that have no excuse.

As regards what I expect, I expect people to make a reasonable effort to buy a ticket. I also expect (although this is a triumph of hope over experience) members on this forum not to make excuses for fare evasion, and roll out the Outrage Bus whenever a TOC tries to tackle it.

Might I refer both you and the OP to this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2238593#post2238593

Saying that it's not for passengers to have to search for a guard is not the same thing in any sense as supporting fare evasion. It's simply saying that it is entirely reasonable that a passenger should be able to sit in their seat and relax and enjoy the journey.
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It's also striking that there are certain routes where some guards rarely put in an appearance whereas other guards on the same route manage to fully work the train. It's difficult to see how the former can be engaged in such time-consuming safety critical duties compared to the latter.

 

[Flamingo]

So it's more important that somebody sits and enjoys their journey than pays for it? Well, that attitude explains a lot, but I can't think of any other business that successfully has that approach.

 

[TUC]

So it's more important that somebody sits and enjoys their journey than pays for it? Well, that attitude explains a lot, but I can't think of any other business that successfully has that approach.

You can't think of any other successful business where the customer's enjoyment of experiencing the product isn't central to their success and where paying for it, although clearly vital, isn't seen as something that they make as easy as possible for the customer?

That attitude explains a lot about the problem that railways need to overcome.

 

[westv]

So it's more important that somebody sits and enjoys their journey than pays for it? Well, that attitude explains a lot, but I can't think of any other business that successfully has that approach.

It's both important for passengers to enjoy their journey and for TOCs to provide adequate facilities for easy payment of fares.

 

[Flamingo]

It's both important for passengers to enjoy their journey and for TOCs to provide adequate facilities for easy payment of fares.

If there is a guard on the train, on most journeys that would count as adequate facilities for most tickets and payment types, I would have thought.

Basically, too many people make excuses for the "Pay when challenged" brigade, as the last few posts show. Talk about "Paytrains" is another red herring - how long ago did they go out? Over ten, I know that.

 

[arb]

Here's another story, based on an experience of mine last week, to add to the "passengers are getting conflicting messages" argument:

I was on holiday in Wales, and attempted to purchase a ticket from a machine at an unstaffed station, to be greeted with an error message that (roughly) said "Printer error, your card hasn't been charged, contact your travel agent for more information".

I then boarded the train and bought from the guard (when he came round the train - I didn't seek him out ), and also decided to be helpful and report the broken ticket machine.

He told me that there was no need to use the machines, they were unreliable and half the time didn't print all the tickets, and that it was much better to buy on the train, and it would never be any more expensive to do so.

After he'd left, I read the the warning poster on the carriage wall right next to my seat, which told me all about the dire consequences of following his advice and not buying a ticket before boarding.

 

[455driver]

Just to throw a curved ball in there-

What is the difference between seeking out the TVM at the station (which you might not have used before) and seeking out the guard on the train?

Yes I know you are under no obligation to seek the guard but was just wondering on other peoples viewpoints, especially the apologists!

 

[PHILIPE]

TVMs long queues can be an issue. Another is one seeks out the guard and he/she is riding in a portion with no through access. Also, go to find the guard and come back and find your seat occupied. ATW have not thought this through.

 

[najaB]

Usually followed some old guff about how paying for a ticket is nothing to do with the operation of a railway.

Well then, explain to me how selling tickets helps to safely deliver the timetable?

 

[Deerfold]

Just to throw a curved ball in there-

What is the difference between seeking out the TVM at the station (which you might not have used before) and seeking out the guard on the train?

Yes I know you are under no obligation to seek the guard but was just wondering on other peoples viewpoints, especially the apologists!

If there's more than one person at a TVM there will (hopefully) be an orderly queue. If you approach the guard round my way you'll likely be told to go and wait your turn by the people they're just approaching.

I usually start my journey at Steeton and Silsden. When the (card only) ticket machine is working I use it. When it's not there will be dozens of people all over the train wanting tickets. Today I got on at Keighley before the ticket office opened. The TVM is in the ticket office. I waited for the guard to come round - about half the people who boarded the 4 carriage train will probably have a season ticket, the rest wait their turn to buy as the conductor comes through.

When doing a very short journey I have gone looking for the conductor to be told "I'm not selling tickets tonight".

 

[deltic]

I wonder whether a bit of nudge economics is needed in ticket selling as partly applies in the Netherlands. Equip all stations with TVM - card only at unstaffed and high risk locations. Buy your ticket by card from a TVM and you pay x, buy from a ticket office and you pay x + 50p , buy your ticket on board and pay x +£1 or 10% whichever is higher. Would that start to change people's buying habits?

 

[Flamingo]

I wonder whether a bit of nudge economics is needed in ticket selling as partly applies in the Netherlands. Equip all stations with TVM - card only at unstaffed and high risk locations. Buy your ticket by card from a TVM and you pay x, buy from a ticket office and you pay x +b 50p , buy your ticket on board and pay x +£1 or 10% whichever is higher. Would that start to change people's buying habits?

No, it wouldn't. At present, the only ticket to be sold on-board is the Anytime one. This is not seen as a deterrent, as nobody expected s to pay it, and managers certainly don't expect us to charge it!

Last time I charged one, I ended up having to shut the train office door in the guy's face to get away from him, as he followed me screaming abuse at me over the "crap customer service" before ringing the helpline to whinge his little after off about it. Doubtless he got an apologetic letter and vouchers.

 

[Tracky]

My heart sank when I saw the article.

Personally,

I believe revenue protection starts with revenue collection. If card only TVMs are to become the norm, PERTIS machines should always sit alongside. Ticket office staff also need to recognise the need to be in ad available during their booked opening hours.

Real time availability of all ticketing facilities should be clear to passengers, train crew and control.



The issue, as I see it, is a problem with society and it appears to be less of a problem on the continent.

It is those who actively (or maybe passively) avoid paying while the guard comes through.

At a barrier, it isn't easy, probably isn't possible, to determine who these are.


As a little example

On a route over which I work trains, there are a handful stations on the approach to a major city. All have ticket machines and all have ticket offices manned for part of the day. Penalty fare warning notices have been in place for at least 15 years.

Depending on busyness, I may carry out a full ticket check after the third station to 'get everybody' and this results in a mix of excuses and reasons why a ticket wasn't purchased before hand. Refusing to offer off peak tickets and railcard discounts in line with the conditions of carriage and railcard Ts and Cs results Kind of approaches "deltic"s peanalising a little but results in numerous arguments.

On a busy train I will make use of the PA to remind passengers of the responsibility to hold a valid ticket and the fact I am available and about to pass through the train. On the first pass, I get the honest ones, on the way back - I may get some who display suspect body language - but there will be other nasty thieving fare dodgers who make the decision not to buy before boarding and and decide not to pay me at a second opportunity.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would it also fall foul of disability laws, expecting a disabled person to locate the guard?

 

[yorkie]

None of this talk of people avoiding open ticket offices alters the fact that if you board at a station without facilities to buy the ticket using your chosen payment method you are not required to walk up and down the train searching for a Guard/ticket examiner/RPI, and if ATW are claiming otherwise they need to be dealt with appropriately.
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Would it also fall foul of disability laws, expecting a disabled person to locate the guard?

Absolutely, but no-one who boards at such a station is expected to go locating a Guard (who may or may not be on the train and may or may not be in the same portion of the train as the customer and may or may not be selling tickets and may or may not already have other people to sell tickets to!) and if anyone claims otherwise, they are wrong, whatever their beliefs about what they want to happen!

 

[Tracky]

Would it also fall foul of disability laws, expecting a disabled person to locate the guard?

Condition 6 of the disabled persons railcard States

Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train. When buying tickets in person from a member of staff, you must show your valid Railcard. If you are buying tickets online or from a ticket machine you must declare that you have a valid Railcard by selecting the Disabled Persons Railcard option. If you fail to do so, you and, where appropriate, the adult travelling with you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no tickets where purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if:
there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed, and
there was no working ticket machines from which you could buy discounted tickets, or
you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities

In these cases you will be able to use your Railcard on train or at your destination.
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None of this talk of people avoiding open ticket offices alters the fact that if you board at a station without facilities to buy the ticket using your chosen payment method you are not required to walk up and down the train searching for a Guard/ticket examiner/RPI, and if ATW are claiming otherwise they need to be dealt with appropriately.
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Absolutely, but no-one who boards at such a station is expected to go locating a Guard (who may or may not be on the train and may or may not be in the same portion of the train as the customer and may or may not be selling tickets and may or may not already have other people to sell tickets to!) and if anyone claims otherwise, they are wrong, whatever their beliefs about what they want to happen!

Absolutely agree.

My story was to illustrate that operators should only go after those who have missed clear opportunities to purchase tickets.

The grey area which, in my opinion, really needs clarifying, is that if somebody joins at a station with a card only TVM but wishes to pay using cash (or rail travel vouchers for that matter) there should similarly be no requirement to find the guard so long as they don't avoid payment if he or she comes along.

 

[crehld]

Just to throw a curved ball in there-

What is the difference between seeking out the TVM at the station (which you might not have used before) and seeking out the guard on the train?

Yes I know you are under no obligation to seek the guard but was just wondering on other peoples viewpoints, especially the apologists!

Aren't we discussing what happens when boarding at a station with no ticket issuing facilities? The difference is the guard exists, the TVM does not!

 

[yorkie]

Absolutely agree.

My story was to illustrate that operators should only go after those who have missed clear opportunities to purchase tickets.

No worries I wasn't aiming it at you; the discussion had gone that way a while back!

The grey area which, in my opinion, really needs clarifying, is that if somebody joins at a station with a card only TVM but wishes to pay using cash (or rail travel vouchers for that matter) there should similarly be no requirement to find the guard so long as they don't avoid payment if he or she comes along.

In my view it's quite clear there has not yet been an opportunity to pay but I agree the whole cash thing could do with clarifying. This was supposed to have happened by now, I will try to chase this up, but I suspect some operators prefer FUD than clarity...

 

[crehld]

So it's more important that somebody sits and enjoys their journey than pays for it? Well, that attitude explains a lot, but I can't think of any other business that successfully has that approach.

How about enjoying one's journey AND paying for it?

 

[Flamingo]

How about enjoying one's journey AND paying for it?

My point exactly. Although paying for the journey does rather spoil some peoples enjoyment of it.

 

[crehld]

If there is a guard on the train, on most journeys that would count as adequate facilities for most tickets and payment types, I would have thought.

Indeed. How is a guard to make their presence know to passengers wanting to buy tickets. By walking through the coach I would imagine. Or are you suggesting it is better off for all passengers boarding at stations with no ticket facilities to all make their way to the back cab and block the gang ways and vestibules. Your very vocal about that on other threads! I've tried going to the back cab and knocking on the door for a ticket on a couple of occasions and have been told off for doing so - I know where my place is!

Basically, too many people make excuses for the "Pay when challenged" brigade, as the last few posts show. Talk about "Paytrains" is another red herring - how long ago did they go out? Over ten, I know that.

No one is making excuses. By failing to provide adequate facilities at ask stations to purchase tickets before travel and making it a necessity to buy on board this problem is entirely of the railway industry's making. Don't like it? Get it changed!

 

[Flamingo]

None of this talk of people avoiding open ticket offices alters the fact that if you board at a station without facilities to buy the ticket using your chosen payment method you are not required to walk up and down the train searching for a Guard/ticket examiner/RPI, and if ATW are claiming otherwise they need to be dealt with appropriately.!

So lots of non-rail staff on here maintain. Has this ever been tested in court, or is it somebody's "interpretation" of the NRCoC? I've never seen it explicitly stated anywhere (except by posters on here) and would love to know the reference, either to the case, or the written condition, or the bylaw.
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Indeed. How is a guard to make their presence know to passengers wanting to buy tickets. By walking through the coach I would imagine. Or are you suggesting it is better off for all passengers boarding at stations with no ticket facilities to all make their way to the back cab and block the gang ways and vestibules. Your very vocal about that on other threads! I've tried going to the back cab and knocking on the door for a ticket on a couple of occasions and have been told off for doing so - I know where my place is!

If Guards are refusing to sell you tickets, complain to the TOC. If it has happened every train you have ever travelled on, complain to Passenger Focus and your MP.

It's funny how even the most vocal complainer on this Forum never seems to complain to any of the above about circumstances that mean they might get a free ride, but will whinge loud and long in every possible channel when somebody dares to suggest that today's possible loophole in the Routeing Guide might not be valid.

 

[crehld]

No, it wouldn't. At present, the only ticket to be sold on-board is the Anytime one.

Of course unless they boarded a station with no ticketing facilities, on which case the full range of tickets and discounts will be offered

This is not seen as a deterrent, as nobody expected s to pay it, and managers certainly don't expect us to charge it!

There are a number of solutions to this, one of which was floated above. Make people expect to have to pay by upping the staff on board. Make it a deterrent.

Last time I charged one, I ended up having to shut the train office door in the guy's face to get away from him, as he followed me screaming abuse at me over the "crap customer service" before ringing the helpline to whinge his little after off about it. Doubtless he got an apologetic letter and vouchers.

To be fair no amount of rule setting, financial penalties or other sanctions are going to prevent those determined few with this sort of crappy attitude.