Anarchy in Calais

[WestCoast]

I can't see France or any other EU state being that interested as long as Cameron insists that the UK doesn't take a quota of the refugees that are going into the nearest states to Northern Africa, namely Italy, Greece and Spain.
It is an inconvenience for France, but really it's only a British problem. Britain's separatist attitudes reduce any sympathy that they might get in Europe. If we are taken out of the EU, it will get worse.

I tend to agree, most Western European nations (including France) know the problem well and have to spend their money and resources on the migrants that they have on their territory - at least the ones that claim asylum there (in France that is 60,000 or so in 2014). Processing that number costs money and resources in every nation. Reducing the number heading to other countries is not on the agenda. Calais could be secured at a cost, but these people will not go away. If they are undocumented, untraceable and do not want to stay in France, they will risk everything to reach the UK.

No, asylum should not work on quotas etc but it is difficult to see a fair way forward. When the first safe country as a Syrian refugee you reach is Greece or Italy, it depends on whether you think those countries can and should solely deal with the problem. Then if you enact a quota with transport to other nations, you may encourage more illegitmate cases. Catch 22.

 

[HilversumNS]

start talking about sending people back asap who don't meet the criteria for asylum.

Most will have destroyed their passports. Many will lie as to where they came from.

To remove them back to where they came from, there needs to be proof in order for the originating country to accept them. Otherwise you'd end up simply dumping them on another country which was never responsible for them in the 1st place.

 

[Johnuk123]

As apparently a huge number of these migrants are from Eritrea it was interesting to learn this morning that conscription from 18 to 50 for an average of 6 ½ yrs. is the reason a lot of them would rather be in Europe.

 

[DarloRich]

As apparently a huge number of these migrants are from Eritrea it was interesting to learn this morning that conscription from 18 to 50 for an average of 6 ½ yrs. is the reason a lot of them would rather be in Europe.

Most are reported to be from Eritrea, Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan or Libya - you can quite easily see why they might choose to leave!

Most will have destroyed their passports. Many will lie as to where they came from.

To remove them back to where they came from, there needs to be proof in order for the originating country to accept them. Otherwise you'd end up simply dumping them on another country which was never responsible for them in the 1st place.

I don't have an answer other than if you say you are from X you go back to X. We also need to break up the gangs who are profiting from, encouraging and supporting the people trafficking that leads to these problems

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Otherwise you'd end up simply dumping them on another country which was never responsible for them in the 1st place.

.....such as Britain..

COBRA has been called to meeting this morning as a result of recent events.
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No, asylum should not work on quotas etc but it is difficult to see a fair way forward. When the first safe country as a Syrian refugee you reach is Greece or Italy, it depends on whether you think those countries can and should solely deal with the problem. Then if you enact a quota with transport to other nations, you may encourage more illegitmate cases. Catch 22.

Why don't they view Russia, that shining light of freedom with the benign Putin as supremo, as a natural place to go to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most are reported to be from Eritrea, Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan or Libya - you can quite easily see why they might choose to leave!

The great difficulty I have with all of this is that they are all people, and I don't entirely see why I should get to live in a well-off, relatively free country with the mobility to live more or less where I want like the UK and them not. They aren't an underclass nor should they be. Yet the UK can't afford to take them all in.

In the long term there will have to be a global flattening of living standards to bring people into line; I think this will happen naturally as the West runs out of cheap places to manufacture their gadgets etc. Because there are only so many resources, that'll involve a reduction in living conditions in the UK as well as an increase elsewhere, I'm afraid.

 

[Antman]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/59...SANDS-migrants-storm-Eurotunnel-night-anarchy

The Foreign Office is advising travellers to avoid Calais and Northern France.
Eurotunnel is saying don't travel on a day trip because you won't get back even if you get there.

The French know every economic migrant that gets across the channel is one less for them to bother with so they have no intention of stopping them which they aren't.

I feel really sorry for the lorry drivers and it's only a matter of time before we have a driver pulled from his cab and killed.

Clearly the French are unable, or more likely unwilling, to deal with the problem and the only solution I can see is to send British troops over to Calais to secure the tunnel or just close it altogether until the problem is resolved. And I think you're right, it can only be a matter of time before somebody is killed unless some action is taken.

Apparently the fencing in Calais is hopelessly inadequate, I'm only going by what I've been told as I've not actually been there, and it does seem the French are quite happy for migrants to get across the channel so that they are no longer their problem.

On this side of the channel operation stack is causing absolute chaos in parts of Kent, people cannot get to hospital appointments and funerals, driving tests are having to be cancelled and one haulier in Folkestone reckons it has cost them around £150,000 so far and it cannot be long before companies are forced out of business.

Over to David Cameron................................

 

[NSEFAN]

In the long term there will have to be a global flattening of living standards to bring people into line; I think this will happen naturally as the West runs out of cheap places to manufacture their gadgets etc. Because there are only so many resources, that'll involve a reduction in living conditions in the UK as well as an increase elsewhere, I'm afraid.

That would be the fairest option. Most of the conflict in the world is ultimately caused by resource scarcity, although there is often a religious overtone to try and justify it to the plebs.

Of course the smart thing to do would be just to have fewer people in the first place. Fewer mouths to feed, less energy required to sustain us, everyone has a bit more breathing space, job's a good'un. Unfortunately that would require a bit too much consensus and coordination amongst our species. Meanwhile, let's roll out the army and start gunning down the oncoming wave of migrants who dare to invade our virgin soil. :roll:

 

[talltim]

The great difficulty I have with all of this is that they are all people, and I don't entirely see why I should get to live in a well-off, relatively free country with the mobility to live more or less where I want like the UK and them not. They aren't an underclass nor should they be. Yet the UK can't afford to take them all in.

In the long term there will have to be a global flattening of living standards to bring people into line; I think this will happen naturally as the West runs out of cheap places to manufacture their gadgets etc. Because there are only so many resources, that'll involve a reduction in living conditions in the UK as well as an increase elsewhere, I'm afraid.

I couldn't agree more. Your 'country' is an accident of birth. Why do we have any more right than anyone else to live on this particular island?

 

[CC 72100]

French media reporting that 120 extra CRS (riot police) to be sent to assist in portecting Eurotunnel.

Apparently there are now around 200 Eurotunnel security staff, although around 37000 migrants have been intercepted in 2015 trying to gain access to the tunnel. (source: http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...tunnel-a-intercepte-plus-de-37000migrants.php)

It's ironic in a way... while a lot of the French media would happily put them all on a boat tomorrow over to the UK, maintaining that they are doing the UK's dirty work, at the same time they have set up their own heavy-handed operation in not letting people without papers in at the France/Italy border at Vintimille, preventing people from getting into France and sending them back to Italy.

 

[Cletus]

I’m glad to see troops/riot police being sent in.

It’s not just illegal immigrants causing problems. The ex-My FerryLink ferries are still blocking berths in Calais reducing capacity. Operation Stack is not going away until that dispute is resolved and those ferries are being used by DFDS.

Also this morning I’ve heard that French farmers are blockading the Normandy Bridge.

 

[Senex]

When the first safe country as a Syrian refugee you reach is Greece or Italy, it depends on whether you think those countries can and should solely deal with the problem.

Wouldn't Turkey and Jordan count as the first safe countries, which should then sort out the political refugees from the rest?

What we're seeing is the failure of the Schengen arrangements under which free movement within the area was supposed to be associated with very much tighter external borders. The countries that have the difficult external borders are not capable of policing them properly on their own but seem either unable or unwilling to persuade their more northern partners to help them. We stayed out of Schengen, so are not under any obligation to help. And we can also close our own borders as tight as we like, regardless of what the French think. However, it's better to talk, and we should recognise that the French have a problem and try to help -- but not by dropping our own border defences and letting more economic "migrants" into this country. (By the way, I should very much have liked to see Britain in Schengen and Schengen made to work very much better to defend the EU's borders, but the way things are going at present I'm rather glad we stayed out.)
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Of course the smart thing to do would be just to have fewer people in the first place. Fewer mouths to feed, less energy required to sustain us, everyone has a bit more breathing space, job's a good'un. Unfortunately that would require a bit too much consensus and coordination amongst our species.

Absolutely -- and within this country too!

 

[AM9]

The great difficulty I have with all of this is that they are all people, and I don't entirely see why I should get to live in a well-off, relatively free country with the mobility to live more or less where I want like the UK and them not. They aren't an underclass nor should they be. Yet the UK can't afford to take them all in.

Hence an evetual agreement across the EU to spread the load proportionately according to population, (I won't mention the 'Q' word but that's what it will be however it is dressed up). The only other way is for fortress UK, mmm. Who really wants that?

In the long term there will have to be a global flattening of living standards to bring people into line; I think this will happen naturally as the West runs out of cheap places to manufacture their gadgets etc. Because there are only so many resources, that'll involve a reduction in living conditions in the UK as well as an increase elsewhere, I'm afraid.

I agree with all that and once again, but for those who think the status quo can be maintained, well, it would involve making physical unauthorised entry to the UK effectively impossible, which would trigger reciprocal restrictions on foreign travel and trade.

 

[CC 72100]

I’m glad to see troops/riot police being sent in.

It’s not just illegal immigrants causing problems. The ex-My FerryLink ferries are still blocking berths in Calais reducing capacity. Operation Stack is not going away until that dispute is resolved and those ferries are being used by DFDS.

Also this morning I’ve heard that French farmers are blockading the Normandy Bridge.

The MyFerryLink actions originally worsened the situation. Block Calais = lots of cars stuck on motorway outside Calais = great opportunity for the migrants as traffic is so slow that risks of being struck are severely reduced.

I saw it for myself to a much lesser degree last summer.

Yep, the French farmers is still going on. The Pont de Normandie at Le Havre is a bottleneck at the best of times as there is a toll booth just the other side. Surely these actions are illegal but in the taxi dispute in which traditional taxi drivers resorted to such measures, they eventually won. As a result, I can't see the government taking action on this one either...

 

[Antman]

I couldn't agree more. Your 'country' is an accident of birth. Why do we have any more right than anyone else to live on this particular island?

Well that's just life I'm afraid

 

[Johnuk123]

I’m glad to see troops/riot police being sent in.

It’s not just illegal immigrants causing problems. The ex-My FerryLink ferries are still blocking berths in Calais reducing capacity. Operation Stack is not going away until that dispute is resolved and those ferries are being used by DFDS.

Also this morning I’ve heard that French farmers are blockading the Normandy Bridge.

What other developed country would park lorries on the motorway, the cheap option of course and to hell with the residents of Kent.

I see today farmers in France are driving along spraying manure over cars and spreading it in front of supermarkets, lovely.

 

[Antman]

What other developed country would park lorries on the motorway, the cheap option of course and to hell with the residents of Kent.

I see today farmers in France are driving along spraying manure over cars and spreading it in front of supermarkets, lovely.

There isn't a great deal of alternative to parking lorries on the motorway as things stand.

 

[meridian2]

Simple fact is that this is the result of too many migrants using a system which prefers free migration to targeted migration.
More deterrents are needed, especially those crossing the Med. Europe has to start demonstrating that it can respond to this. So far it hasn't, and the haulage firms are losing millions.

 

[Johnuk123]

There isn't a great deal of alternative to parking lorries on the motorway as things stand.

Of course there is, the Govt. have been offered at least 4 sites to use as lorry parks and have rejected them all on the grounds of cost.

Manston airfield although not ideal was one of them.

 

[Antman]

Of course there is, the Govt. have been offered at least 4 sites to use as lorry parks and have rejected them all on the grounds of cost.

Manston airfield although not ideal was one of them.

There were also objections from residents, perhaps not surprisingly nobody wants a lorry park in their backyard and Manston is totally unsuitable

 

[AM9]

Of course there is, the Govt. have been offered at least 4 sites to use as lorry parks and have rejected them all on the grounds of cost.

Manston airfield although not ideal was one of them.

As Antman would say: "Well that's just life I'm afraid", still it beats living in a tent at Calais, - which beats living in many African or Middle East states etc..
If people can cross the Mediterranean, and then Continental Europe, to get away from something they don't like, those in Kent who don't like it can go elsewhere in the UK, without risking their life in an unseaworthy boat of cutting through wire fences to hide in Trucks. Or they can just put up with it.

 

[Antman]

As Antman would say: "Well that's just life I'm afraid", still it beats living in a tent at Calais, - which beats living in many African or Middle East states etc..
If people can cross the Mediterranean, and then Continental Europe, to get away from something they don't like, those in Kent who don't like it can go elsewhere in the UK, without risking their life in an unseaworthy boat of cutting through wire fences to hide in Trucks. Or they can just put up with it.

Many of them have paid a fortune to people traffickers to be taken to a supposedly better life only to find they are no better off when they get there. It really is about time this trade in human misery was stopped at source.

 

[Johnuk123]

There were also objections from residents, perhaps not surprisingly nobody wants a lorry park in their backyard and Manston is totally unsuitable

Of course residents don't want a lorry park in their back yard but they also don't want the motorway shut for longer than it's open.
I bet these residents don't have businesses losing massive amounts of money every day the motorway is closed.
There was a woman on tv last night whose business has fell 90%, I bet she wouldn't object to a lorry park.

The Government seem to be treating this crisis as a slight problem with Cameron describing It as "of some concern".

Unless the amount of migrants getting in to Britain illegally is the same amount as the new arrivals at Calais then the 5 or 6000 already there is only going to increase.

The thing is we haven't got a clue, we're simply hoping it will all go away.

 

[Antman]

Of course residents don't want a lorry park in their back yard but they also don't want the motorway shut for longer than it's open.
I bet these residents don't have businesses losing massive amounts of money every day the motorway is closed.
There was a woman on tv last night whose business has fell 90%, I bet she wouldn't object to a lorry park.

The Government seem to be treating this crisis as a slight problem with Cameron describing It as "of some concern".

Unless the amount of migrants getting in to Britain illegally is the same amount as the new arrivals at Calais then the 5 or 6000 already there is only going to increase.

The thing is we haven't got a clue, we're simply hoping it will all go away.

Yes I pretty much agree with you, the cost of all this to businesses must be astronomical.

Closing the motorway for op stack occasionally because bad weather in the channel or whatever was just about accepted, the current situation is unprecedented and calls for some drastic action.

 

[bb21]

Yes plenty if you care to look.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theyve-knives-sharp-you-could-5949207

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/583118/Migrants-threaten-truckers-British-drivers-fear-lives-Calais

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-32834067

http://utv.ie/News/2015/07/27/Irish-truck-driver-held-at-knifepoint-by-Calais-migrants-41885

http://news.sky.com/story/1513784/migrant-crisis-uk-hauliers-fear-calais-deaths

I am not going to spend all day looking for links I will just say if you think it's hysterical to suggest a trucker might be killed you are entitled to that opinion.
If you think these truckers are all making it up and their fears are groundless that is up to you.
Sky showed a migrant walking along the central reservation of the motorway carrying a massive machete, obviously to peel his grapes I assume.
As you accuse me of hyperbole and being hysterical then why not provide some proof that lorry drivers in general are not worried and have no fear of attack whilst being surrounded by armed mobs in Calais.

Thank you. I now see your point.

May I suggest including some sources for such bold claims in the same post for the future? Otherwise you can hardly blame people for challenging your claims.
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In the long term there will have to be a global flattening of living standards to bring people into line; I think this will happen naturally as the West runs out of cheap places to manufacture their gadgets etc. Because there are only so many resources, that'll involve a reduction in living conditions in the UK as well as an increase elsewhere, I'm afraid.

How long is this "long term" likely to be in your opinion Neil? The reasons behind the differentials in living standards is multi-fold and extremely complex, and I fear that this "flattening" is likely to be very many years away.

 

[Johnuk123]

Thank you. I now see your point.

May I suggest including some sources for such bold claims in the same post for the future? Otherwise you can hardly blame people for challenging your claims.

I accept your apology.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long is this "long term" likely to be in your opinion Neil? The reasons behind the differentials in living standards is multi-fold and extremely complex, and I fear that this "flattening" is likely to be very many years away.

I think very long term - 50-100 years or more. But you can see it starting to appear with manufacturing and services moving back to the UK, because it simply isn't cheaper to have them offshored any more.

 

[ExRes]

those in Kent who don't like it can go elsewhere in the UK, without risking their life in an unseaworthy boat of cutting through wire fences to hide in Trucks. Or they can just put up with it.

Why ?

Actually though, perhaps a central refugee camp could be set up in the St Albans and Harpenden area, all the residents could then put up with it or move elsewhere, would you be happy with that ?

 

[Antman]

Just an update on the operation stack situation, the M20 is closed both ways between junctions 8 and 9 and coastbound to Junction 11 and this is expected to remain the same until the weekend.

Ashford is virtually gridlocked.

 

[HilversumNS]

There were also objections from residents, perhaps not surprisingly nobody wants a lorry park in their backyard and Manston is totally unsuitable

Anything gets objections from local residents these days. If that was the reason for not doing something, we'd never do anything.

Apart from Manston being 20+ miles from Dover and Folkstone, the need for some additional fencing and bathroom facilities, what other reasons are there for not using it? Turning the M20 into a car park and creating the traffic congestion all around it is hardly worse, is it?