Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Haydn1971]

Northern has definitely got a lot better at this over the past few years though. Some of the refreshes have made a big difference.

Really ? Could have fooled me. I've been a regular rail user since about 2011, if this is a big difference, I'm happy not to have seen what state the fleet was in under the previous franchise ! The seats in the refreshed Pacers are nice, but then I can only sit in the middle facing seats, the loos are still a no-go area of urine for me, the bits falling apart are still evident. The regular 158's on the Leeds-Nottingham stopper were awful compared to the EMT Liverpool-Norwich units, but even the EMT units are starting to fall apart. If remaining in service, the 14x & 15x fleets up here need a full refurbishment to bring them up to an acceptable standard, the EMT units have (in my view) the decent seats, but that's about it from a customer perspective.

 

[yorksrob]

Really ? Could have fooled me. I've been a regular rail user since about 2011, if this is a big difference, I'm happy not to have seen what state the fleet was in under the previous franchise ! The seats in the refreshed Pacers are nice, but then I can only sit in the middle facing seats, the loos are still a no-go area of urine for me, the bits falling apart are still evident. The regular 158's on the Leeds-Nottingham stopper were awful compared to the EMT Liverpool-Norwich units, but even the EMT units are starting to fall apart. If remaining in service, the 14x & 15x fleets up here need a full refurbishment to bring them up to an acceptable standard, the EMT units have (in my view) the decent seats, but that's about it from a customer perspective.

To be fair, the wee on the floor is probably more to do with leaky customers than the train.

If you take the 144's and 156's in particular, since their refresh they're really nice trains IMO.

158's are generally decent, but always hindered by their over technological toilets!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you take the 144's and 156's in particular, since their refresh they're really nice trains IMO.

The ePacer looks very good indeed, basically a new build inside an old body, which after all is what we do with houses!

The 156 refresh is OK, but there are a load of gaps in it that make it look like a half job (e.g. not having painted the bit of ceiling panel under the lighting tubes, so it retains its old mucky magnolia colour, which really stands out against the rest of it having been painted) and the seat padding is still a bit worn even though the covers have been replaced. But while old and basic the 156 is a really good regional express unit, so it would be hard to truly botch it up.

 

[yorksrob]

The ePacer looks very good indeed, basically a new build inside an old body, which after all is what we do with houses!

The 156 refresh is OK, but there are a load of gaps in it that make it look like a half job (e.g. not having painted the bit of ceiling panel under the lighting tubes, so it retains its old mucky magnolia colour, which really stands out against the rest of it having been painted) and the seat padding is still a bit worn even though the covers have been replaced. But while old and basic the 156 is a really good regional express unit, so it would be hard to truly botch it up.

I hadn't noticed the paint job gaps on the 156's, although that could be something to do with my eyesight

The new 144, I'm intrigued to try it out. I've waxed lyrical against the lack of luggage racks, but looking at pictures of the seating, I have to say, it's hard to see how it's an improvement on the very nicely kept 144's I commute on everyday!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The 144's are the best built and the most improved of the pacer fleet from a passenger point of view. There is no doubt the 142's are visually, comfortly and in conditionally the worst trains in this country in comparison which is purely down to the asthetics of the front end and the quality of the seats and moquette of the seating used. Changing from arrivas green to northern blue has helped a little, but the actual seat is a poor quality and uncomfortable seat to occupy and does little to enhance the travelling experience.

Im watching the 230 with interest. It has the potential to be a success (mind so did Durham Free School!) and will help fill a looming gap in the rolling stock market. Use on the appropriate routes will be a must if this train concept is to succeed, but as with the channel tunnel rail link, HS2, IEP etc i think its too little too late, and unless we significantly accelerate the refurbs and knitting projects we are heading towards a rolling stock armageddon in 2020! You only have to look at the delayed and cancelled rail AND road projects over the last 40 years to see officialdom spend far too much time talking about what needs to be done without actually doing anything unless there has been a value for money study, a feasability study, consultations, stakeholder engagements, public enquirys, judicial reviews to realise so much money has been spent in planning there is no money left to actually see a project through, so it gets cancelled. Then revived. Then cancelled again.....

 

[Camden]

The 144's are the best built and the most improved of the pacer fleet from a passenger point of view. There is no doubt the 142's are visually, comfortly and in conditionally the worst trains in this country in comparison which is purely down to the asthetics of the front end and the quality of the seats and moquette of the seating used. Changing from arrivas green to northern blue has helped a little, but the actual seat is a poor quality and uncomfortable seat to occupy and does little to enhance the travelling experience.

Isn't the key problem with pacers to do with the ride they mechanically can give due to their wheels, rather than the seats that may or may not soften the blow or distract passengers with fancy design? Certainly when I had a go on a pacer, the pattern on the seats was the last thing on my mind, but more my aching back as the railbus bounced its way down the tracks.

 

[Darren R]

Isn't the key problem with pacers to do with the ride they mechanically can give due to their wheels, rather than the seats that may or may not soften the blow or distract passengers with fancy design? Certainly when I had a go on a pacer, the pattern on the seats was the last thing on my mind, but more my aching back as the railbus bounced its way down the tracks.

Well, yes, but...

Personally I think the 143s and 144s give a better ride (and many people seem to say the same thing.) Is there any difference between a 142 and a 143/144 that would make the ride any different? (Or is the effect purely psychological? )

 

[yorksrob]

Well, yes, but...

Personally I think the 143s and 144s give a better ride (and many people seem to say the same thing.) Is there any difference between a 142 and a 143/144 that would make the ride any different? (Or is the effect purely psychological? )

It's not the ride though.

144's seem like a decent travelling experience. 142's don't.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The alexander bodies are better looking than the Leyland bodies of the 142's. The asthetics and the condition do change the perspective of an individual. A bus can be a rattler but if it has a clean smart interior (go north east) it will be perceived to be a better vehicle than a tired scruffy looking vehicle (arriva)

 

[WillPS]

The body design was completely different (Alexander body rather than Leyland National-derived). That would definitely make the ride different if we were talking about a bus.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Isn't the key problem with pacers to do with the ride they mechanically can give due to their wheels, rather than the seats that may or may not soften the blow or distract passengers with fancy design? Certainly when I had a go on a pacer, the pattern on the seats was the last thing on my mind, but more my aching back as the railbus bounced its way down the tracks.

Well, yes, but...

Personally I think the 143s and 144s give a better ride (and many people seem to say the same thing.) Is there any difference between a 142 and a 143/144 that would make the ride any different? (Or is the effect purely psychological? )

Apparently the e144 has had work to lower the centre of gravity in order to improve the ride quality at high(er) speed. Whether this results in more sluggish acceleration (as extra weight has been added) remains to be seen. All that being said, the 230 should presumably give a better ride due to having proper bogies and suspension, even with the smaller wheels which AIUI are one of the reasons for them being restricted to 60mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not the ride though.

144's seem like a decent travelling experience. 142's don't.

I personally don't notice any practical difference. 144s feel more like a train than a bus, but that's the body shape, particularly the high arched roofline that feels rather like a Mk1 or early Mk2 rather than a Leyland National. But I really don't notice any significant difference in terms of quality or comfort between the two other than things that can be changed easily e.g. seats and layout.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The body design was completely different (Alexander body rather than Leyland National-derived). That would definitely make the ride different if we were talking about a bus.

It won't on a train, because it's the underframe and associated equipment that dictates how it rides. It's a traditional body-underframe construction - the body just keeps the passengers dry (though it is designed to take more end loading in a collision than a Mk1 so is a *bit* safer).

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair, the wee on the floor is probably more to do with leaky customers than the train.

If you take the 144's and 156's in particular, since their refresh they're really nice trains IMO.

158's are generally decent, but always hindered by their over technological toilets!

The 142s toilets don't seem to be serviced properly. It's very common to find one where the toilet door doesn't shut or if it does then it doesn't lock even before you start to look for problems inside such as a toilet that doesn't flush, leaks, no running water, no paper towels or no soap.

There seems to be problems getting new seat covers for 142s with original bus seats which last. The ones FGW fitted to the 142s they had were replaced because they got worn out very quickly, while the ones Northern have refreshed need refreshing again. And no I'm not talking about vandalism but general wear and tear through their intensive use. On the some of the 142s if you have bare arms or legs you have the opportunity to get dust mite bites for free.

I'm not sure which of the 156 types you're referring to. The ex-FNW ones had very worn carpets which were green and blue. Northern originally decided to fit new purple seat covers and give the worn out carpet a deep clean which gave a terrible looking interior. Then a few years later they decided to replace the carpets as well.

I think the ex-ATN 150/2s are the ones which saw the biggest improvement as a result of a refresh but then they hadn't been touched internally for around 20 years so it wasn't difficult to improve them. It was a big shock getting those in the North West when Northern moved them across given the FNW 150s had all been given a full refurbishment.

 

[JonathanH]

Would pacers have been better received if they had been fitted with the contemporary 'Ashbourne' seats (as fitted to Sprinters entering service at the same time) rather than the 'bus' seats that the ex-NW fleet retain. I guess that the capacity would have been less as the train seats would have been more bulky.

 

[northwichcat]

Would pacers have been better received if they had been fitted with the contemporary 'Ashbourne' seats (as fitted to Sprinters entering service at the same time) rather than the 'bus' seats that the ex-NW fleet retain. I guess that the capacity would have been less as the train seats would have been more bulky.

Pacers have numerous advantages over Sprinters. The 143s and 144s as well as the ATW 142s have been refitted with seating similar to what can be found on refurbished Sprinters but that doesn't mean they aren't unpopular. As well as the seating I can come up with the following issues off the top of my head:
1. Lower capacity.
2. Poorer acceleration.
3. Deafening squealing on sharp bends.
4. Poor ride quality.
5. Less doors.
6. Drafty doors meaning the trains can get very cold in the winter if they are travelling at speed.
7. Very small toilet.
8. Higher saloon meaning a double step down to the platform, making it more difficult for some passengers e.g. those with a baby buggy.

And that's comparing the best Pacers (minus the ePacer on point 7) to the worst 150s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has the title of this thread been given a very recent makeover?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 142s toilets don't seem to be serviced properly. It's very common to find one where the toilet door doesn't shut or if it does then it doesn't lock even before you start to look for problems inside such as a toilet that doesn't flush, leaks, no running water, no paper towels or no soap.

My last experience of riding on a Class 142 Pacer from Southport to Manchester had all those faults and discrepancies that you named above...especially that of the toilet door....

 

[delt1c]

Amazing all the anti Pacer posts, a few years after they have gone you will get all the rose tinted glasses posts about pacers. Just like all the loving posts about 1st gen DMU's and EMU's o and lets not forget steam heat Mk1's.
Rember Pacers saved a lot of services that would have been withdrawn at a time when finances were strained.
Give the units the credit they deserve, yes they are getting long in the tooth , but 1 st gen DMU's were far worse than them .

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Amazing all the anti Pacer posts, a few years after they have gone you will get all the rose tinted glasses posts about pacers. Just like all the loving posts about 1st gen DMU's and EMU's o and lets not forget steam heat Mk1's.
Rember Pacers saved a lot of services that would have been withdrawn at a time when finances were strained.
Give the units the credit they deserve, yes they are getting long in the tooth , but 1 st gen DMU's were far worse than them .

I'm not sure you'll find much agreement with your last point, rose-tinted or not!

 

[yorksrob]

Amazing all the anti Pacer posts, a few years after they have gone you will get all the rose tinted glasses posts about pacers. Just like all the loving posts about 1st gen DMU's and EMU's o and lets not forget steam heat Mk1's.
Rember Pacers saved a lot of services that would have been withdrawn at a time when finances were strained.
Give the units the credit they deserve, yes they are getting long in the tooth , but 1 st gen DMU's were far worse than them .

144's are decent enough. It's the 142's that are more of an issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 142s toilets don't seem to be serviced properly. It's very common to find one where the toilet door doesn't shut or if it does then it doesn't lock even before you start to look for problems inside such as a toilet that doesn't flush, leaks, no running water, no paper towels or no soap.

There seems to be problems getting new seat covers for 142s with original bus seats which last. The ones FGW fitted to the 142s they had were replaced because they got worn out very quickly, while the ones Northern have refreshed need refreshing again. And no I'm not talking about vandalism but general wear and tear through their intensive use. On the some of the 142s if you have bare arms or legs you have the opportunity to get dust mite bites for free.

I'm not sure which of the 156 types you're referring to. The ex-FNW ones had very worn carpets which were green and blue. Northern originally decided to fit new purple seat covers and give the worn out carpet a deep clean which gave a terrible looking interior. Then a few years later they decided to replace the carpets as well.

I think the ex-ATN 150/2s are the ones which saw the biggest improvement as a result of a refresh but then they hadn't been touched internally for around 20 years so it wasn't difficult to improve them. It was a big shock getting those in the North West when Northern moved them across given the FNW 150s had all been given a full refurbishment.

Maybe it's a servicing issue out west.

With the exception of the end of the evening (occasionally) the loos on most Yorkshire services seem to be ok in my experience.

 

[WillPS]

144's are decent enough. It's the 142's that are more of an issue.

Is that definitively the case? Personally, I prefer any of the 142s to a 144 (with the exception of the Merseytravel ones).

 

[Bevan Price]

To be fair, the wee on the floor is probably more to do with leaky customers than the train.

Not necessarily. It can be difficult to maintain a steady aim when the train decides to "bounce". I have almost wet my feet more than once for that reason.

 

[D365]

Not necessarily. It can be difficult to maintain a steady aim when the train decides to "bounce". I have almost wet my feet more than once for that reason.

Even when you're sitting, the seat rims can cause 'trouble'

 

[yorksrob]

Amazing all the anti Pacer posts, a few years after they have gone you will get all the rose tinted glasses posts about pacers. Just like all the loving posts about 1st gen DMU's and EMU's o and lets not forget steam heat Mk1's.
Rember Pacers saved a lot of services that would have been withdrawn at a time when finances were strained.
Give the units the credit they deserve, yes they are getting long in the tooth , but 1 st gen DMU's were far worse than them .

And as per usual, for the busiest train of the night we get the crappiest 142 which is unsurprisingly crush loaded.

Currently standing in the doorwell because there nowhere else to go, even though it's dangerous.

Same old Pacer

Same old Northern

Same old fiasco.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

And as per usual, for the busiest train of the night we get the crappiest 142 which is unsurprisingly crush loaded.

Currently standing in the doorwell because there nowhere else to go, even though it's dangerous.

Same old Pacer

Same old Northern

Same old fiasco.

Would you have preferred the service to have been cancelled? It might have been a choice between using a Pacer or cancelling the service

 

[WillPS]

And as per usual, for the busiest train of the night we get the crappiest 142 which is unsurprisingly crush loaded.

Currently standing in the doorwell because there nowhere else to go, even though it's dangerous.

Same old Pacer

Same old Northern

Same old fiasco.

There's always something worse...

...unless you're in the small vestibule on a single 153.

 

[gazthomas]

Would you have preferred the service to have been cancelled? It might have been a choice between using a Pacer or cancelling the service

Would that then mean taxis?

 

[D365]

Would that then mean taxis?

Or ramming punters on to the following train?

 

[yorksrob]

Would you have preferred the service to have been cancelled? It might have been a choice between using a Pacer or cancelling the service

I would have preferred them to have doubled up the unit (which, to be fair, they did eventually, after us all standing there for quarter of an hour, although frankly, since this happens every bank holiday sunday, I would have thought they'd started off doing that to begin with).

My point is, single 2 carriage Pacers aren't fit for purpose anymore. Maybe doubled up, some of the 144's would be fine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or ramming punters on to the following train?

Unlikely, since this was the depth of the night at quarter past ten, which is laughably the last train.

 

[northwichcat]

Has the title of this thread been given a very recent makeover?

SpacePhoenix asked for the title of the thread to be edited to include the confirmed TOPS class number for them.

 

[colchesterken]

This is going on and on a bit.
Lets hope they get one or two into a proper on the ground test service soon, so that we can see the reaction and what they can do in real service
I cannot help feeling a 2ltr trannie engine is not enough remember the slow performance of the 1st generation DMU with uprated bus engines
lets see give them a good trashing, how about the valley lines till they get the sparks!