Jeremy Corbyn & Tom Watson elected leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party

[adrock1976]

In regards to Jeremy remaining silent during the anthem, here's some questions about the event.

"God save the Queen"? Even in the first bloody line there are so many issues. Who is "God"? Why does the Queen need uniquely to be "saved"? From whom? The Devil? From her subjects? From the King Ower the Water? He's been dead for 250 years, so I think she's quite "safe" now. Why do we have a "Queen"? If "God" wants her "safe" why do we need to implore Him to "save" her? That's even before you get on to all the other lines and verses. Scrap the bloody thing. It was written for a different era, when half the Kingdom wanted the return of James VIII. It's no longer relevant. These days we are supposed to believe in freedom, equal rights and democracy.

Furthermore, when England are playing football matches, Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard remained silent throughout too. I do not recall the mainstream media ever being vitriolic towards those players at all as they have been towards Corbyn. Additionally, I stumbled across a quote that is doing the rounds online:

"As a RAF veteran of WW2 I'm not offended by Corbyn not singing ‪#‎nationalanthem‬ but I am offended by politicians who sell guns to tyrants"
- Harry Leslie Smith

Of course, what is not in the mainstream media is that DESI are holding an arms fair at ExCel in London, with arms being sold to the usual suspects that have somewhat dubious human rights records, such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Israel, and the Sultan of Brunei.

 

[backontrack]

I don't think that he's doing anything wrong by not singing the anthem.

Let's start by looking at the anthem. Look at France and 'La Marseillaise'. It's a great tune, and really celebrates the people, not the people who rule the people.

Watching the Six Nations, when England play Wales (particularly at the Millenium Stadium), we see Wales sing 'Land of my Fathers (Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau) and in comparison, God Save The Queen is...a bit rubbish. The tune is just a grim dirge. It's neither enthusiastic nor uplifting.

Why not sing this instead?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YywLqhjvLPI
[YOUTUBE]YywLqhjvLPI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Watching the Six Nations, when England play Wales (particularly at the Millenium Stadium), we see Wales sing 'Land of my Fathers (Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau) and in comparison, God Save The Queen is...a bit rubbish. The tune is just a grim durge. It's neither enthusiastic nor uplifting.

The British National Anthem dates back to the early part of the 18th century and was often sang to reflect that particular era when there was both the 1715 and the 1745 uprisings. Only half a century had elapsed since the Restoration of the Monarchy and matters were not as settled then as in these days.

 

[me123]

I do not believe the speaker has this authority. (That question also seemed like a plant by the Conservative front bench to me as it provided the perfect opportunity for Cameron to highlight is credentials at promoting local causes in his own constituency.

I remember watching an eye-opening BBC documentary about life in parliament (I think it was "Behind the scenes at Westminster"), and as part of the process they followed a couple of new MPs as they tried to navigate the maze of Westminster. With 650 members and very limited time, I really genuinely felt sorry for them. They fought tooth and nail to get just mere minutes of time to represent their constituents. But I particularly remember that the competition for time in PMQs was so intense that the leaders were routinely telling, or rather "suggesting" that their MPs might want to ask some specific questions. Most of them are "planted", or at least rephrased to include some nice soundbites for/against the government (I remember that one backbencher felt obliged to include the phrase "long term economic plan" in her local question).

I am ashamed that Westminster has any control over public life. It's completely unsuited to a modern democracy.

 

[crehld]

Questions from the government benches are almost always planted, or are genuinely local but have an all too convenient link to some flagship government policy. It's the product of a majoritarian system which (usually) ensures a single party wins outright and places limits on any sort of meaningful debate and drive for consensus (there's no need for debate or consensus when you hold a majority after all).

Opposition questions aren't planted all that much. There's not much need when your leader gets a guaranteed six questions. But it does sometimes occur when launching a new policy or if there's merit in drawing as much attention to government failure as possible (not particularly relevant for the first four years of a parliament).

 

[12CSVT]

In regards to Jeremy remaining silent during the anthem, here's some questions about the event.

"God save the Queen"? Even in the first bloody line there are so many issues. Who is "God"? Why does the Queen need uniquely to be "saved"? From whom? The Devil? From her subjects? From the King Ower the Water? He's been dead for 250 years, so I think she's quite "safe" now. Why do we have a "Queen"? If "God" wants her "safe" why do we need to implore Him to "save" her? That's even before you get on to all the other lines and verses. Scrap the bloody thing. It was written for a different era, when half the Kingdom wanted the return of James VIII. It's no longer relevant. These days we are supposed to believe in freedom, equal rights and democracy.

You're dead right about the national anthem being irrelevant - the first line suggesting that an entity, which there is absolutely no proof actually exists, saving an entity which has been obsolete since 1721.

Maybe we should adopt the Sex Pistols 'God Save the Queen' as the national anthem.

 

[Greenback]

The British National Anthem dates back to the early part of the 18th century and was often sang to reflect that particular era when there was both the 1715 and the 1745 uprisings. Only half a century had elapsed since the Restoration of the Monarchy and matters were not as settled then as in these days.

That sounds like an argument for having a new British anthem to me, and a new one for England, too.

 

[crehld]

That sounds like an argument for having a new British anthem to me, and a new one for England, too.

Perhaps we should follow Spain's example and adopt a national anthem without words. Then we could forgo this ridiculous distraction to modern political life and get on with discussing the things that matter.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't agree with a lot of his policies but God I love the way he is putting two fingers up at the usual pomp and ceremony that usually accompanies British politics and the status quo! Good on him for not singing the national anthem if that's what he believes in. Why does our national anthem have to include the Monarchy when hopefully it will be a thing of the past in the decades to come? Everyone is born equal in this country just some are more equal than others.

 

[DarloRich]

The Grauniad/Observer, unless by mainstream you mean tabloid

And north of the border there's
* The Herald
* The Sunday Herald
* The National (tabloid)
* The Daily Record (tabloid; sister paper of The Mirror)
* The Sunday Mail (Sunday equivalent of Record)

Certainly in Scotland the second biggest selling newspaper is the left leaning Daily Record (closely related to The Mirror). Its circulation is not far off that of The Sun, and it pushes the Daily Heil into third place.

The Mirror is the widest circulating left-leaning paper in England at the moment. It's got the third widest circulation in the UK according to Wikipedia, so I'd consider it "mainstream". Although it's not a publication I'm familiar with as it sells very little in Scotland (having no specific Scottish edition).

Apologies - i should have said England. Scotland seems to have a much better left leaning press. Is the Herald a clone of the Mirror or is it a stand alone publication?

 

[Greenback]

Perhaps we should follow Spain's example and adopt a national anthem without words. Then we could forgo this ridiculous distraction to modern political life and get on with discussing the things that matter.

I don't care if it's got words or not, I just want one that is a bit more stirring and uplifting than the current one. An anthem that doesn't focus on one individual, but instead refers to the whole country, would be nice too.

 

[Johnuk123]

YouGov poll from the Times, looks like Corbyn has made the Labour party even more unelectable than Milliband did.

 

[radamfi]

Printed newspapers are of little or no relevance in 2015. If a newspaper says something, so what? It is simply opinion. It is of no more importance than someone's opinion on Twitter or an internet blog.

 

[Johnuk123]

Printed newspapers are of little or no relevance in 2015. If a newspaper says something, so what? It is simply opinion. It is of no more importance than someone's opinion on Twitter or an internet blog.

It's a poll from YouGov it's not a newspapers opinion.

 

[radamfi]

It's a poll from YouGov it's not a newspapers opinion.

I had posted that in response to earlier discussion about newspapers and I hadn't seen your post before I clicked "Submit Reply"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Printed newspapers are of little or no relevance in 2015. If a newspaper says something, so what? It is simply opinion. It is of no more importance than someone's opinion on Twitter or an internet blog.

Yet there of those on this website immediately make reference to the Daily Mail (or a play on that title wording) in a posting when they want to make a reference to an opposite view that they personally espouse.

 

[Greenback]

Yet there of those on this website immediately make reference to the Daily Mail (or a play on that title wording) in a posting when they want to make a reference to an opposite view that they personally espouse.

The same comment applies both ways. You either take notice of what is in newspapers or you don't. I don't. They all have their own agenda, which is bound to be reflected in the way they present the articles and 'stories' that they carry. Indeed, it often impacts on what they choose to carry. They are all the same to my mind.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That sounds like an argument for having a new British anthem to me, and a new one for England, too.

"Jerusalem" is oft quoted as a stirring anthem, until you realise that city is in a totally different country.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Why did he attend this event in the first place, he has said he would like to get rid of the armed forces, he hates the Queen, he has called patriotism "nonsense" he would have been better rehearsing his very poor TUC speech.

Firstly, what on earth does the queen actually have to do with respecting fallen serviceman? His views on the monarchy have nothing at all to do with the topic!

Secondly, you can quite easily be against war but still respect and honor the fallen servicemen who gave their lives. Indeed many people who are against war have their believes BECAUSE of fallen and injured servicemen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Furthermore, when England are playing football matches, Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard remained silent throughout too. I do not recall the mainstream media ever being vitriolic towards those players at all.

I always thought that Gary Neville was the main one of the England team with his totally left-wing views that chose never to sing the National Anthem.

Rooney and "erm Gerrard", being from the Liverpool area, would have found it far too difficult to learn the words..

 

[northwichcat]

Furthermore, when England are playing football matches, Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard remained silent throughout too.

Rooney and "erm Gerrard", being from the Liverpool area, would have found it far too difficult to learn the words..

They were both singing it under Roy Hodgson's management in 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58hP28Omepg#t=0m24s

Maybe Prestbury has a citizenship test which requires people like Rooney to be able to sing the national anthem before they can buy a house?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe Prestbury has a citizenship test which requires people like Rooney to be able to sing the national anthem before they can buy a house?

Many a true word is spoken in jest....

Mind you, we do have a charitable policy of taking in those refugees from Chavland who do try to better themselves.
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The same comment applies both ways. You either take notice of what is in newspapers or you don't. I don't. They all have their own agenda, which is bound to be reflected in the way they present the articles and 'stories' that they carry. Indeed, it often impacts on what they choose to carry. They are all the same to my mind.

Surely not the Morning Star or the Socialist Worker, as they are totally impartial...

 

[me123]

Apologies - i should have said England. Scotland seems to have a much better left leaning press. Is the Herald a clone of the Mirror or is it a stand alone publication?

The Glasgow Herald is an independent publication in Scotland with no counterpart in England as far as I'm aware. It's the Record that's kind of a clone of the Mirror.

 

[crehld]

"Jerusalem" is oft quoted as a stirring anthem, until you realise that city is in a totally different country.

Although of course 'Jerusalem' in Blake's poem is actually a reference to building the kingdom or city of God in England.

I always thought that Gary Neville was the main one of the England team with his totally left-wing views that chose never to sing the National Anthem.

If this the reason why people prefer not to sing the national anthem? I know plenty of hardened left-wingers who sing it with gusto. I also know a fair few on the right who refuse to sing it because they simply don't believe in God or don't like the queen or don't like the tune or find the whole idea of nationhood in a free market economy to be ridiculous. It would seem to me that a person's political leaning is not the cause for their observance of the national anthem

 

[DarloRich]

The Glasgow Herald is an independent publication in Scotland with no counterpart in England as far as I'm aware. It's the Record that's kind of a clone of the Mirror.

apologies - i meant the Record. Thanks for the clarification

 

[WelshBluebird]

If this the reason why people prefer not to sing the national anthem? I know plenty of hardened left-wingers who sing it with gusto. I also know a fair few on the right who refuse to sing it because they simply don't believe in God or don't like the queen or don't like the tune or find the whole idea of nationhood in a free market economy to be ridiculous. It would seem to me that a person's political leaning is not the cause for their observance of the national anthem

Then of course you have some Scottish / Welsh people who refuse to sing it when used in the context of the British national anthem because it is also the English national anthem.

 

[crehld]

Then of course you have some Scottish / Welsh people who refuse to sing it when used in the context of the British national anthem because it is also the English national anthem.

Indeed. The more people draw attention to the issue the more ridiculous their arguments become. There's plenty to criticise Corbyn for in terms of substantive policy but despite how easy this is, his opponents seem incapable of doing so, perhaps because they have very little to say!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Although of course 'Jerusalem' in Blake's poem is actually a reference to building the kingdom or city of God in England.

I am well aware of this and never cease to wonder why Blake ever chose such a anchor-rock settlement of the Jewish faith to be used as an example of what Britain was at the time..... a Christian country.
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Indeed. The more people draw attention to the issue the more ridiculous their arguments become. There's plenty to criticise Corbyn for in terms of substantive policy but despite how easy this is, his opponents seem incapable of doing so, perhaps because they have very little to say!

As a party leader yet to still make his personal manifesto for the Labour Party appear in print for all to read rather than to make assumptions about, I would prefer to await this printed documentary manifesto before making assumptions about what MIGHT be in it.
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If this the reason why people prefer not to sing the national anthem? I know plenty of hardened left-wingers who sing it with gusto. I also know a fair few on the right who refuse to sing it because they simply don't believe in God or don't like the queen or don't like the tune or find the whole idea of nationhood in a free market economy to be ridiculous. It would seem to me that a person's political leaning is not the cause for their observance of the national anthem

How about holding a referendum to see if a new National Anthem should replace the existing one?

However, noting the methods used to choose the British entry for the Eurovision Song Contest which actual events prove to be disastrous, that method should NEVER be a method of choice...

 

[Greenback]

I think that there should be a competition and a public vote, preferably on ITV1 to decide what the new anthem should be. There should be some celebrity judges to help guide the public with their votes.

My suggestions would be Virginia Wade, Patti Boulaye, Darius, the bloke who used to play Reg Holdsworth in Corrie, Tom Daley, and Eliza Doolittle.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Can't we just save all this trouble and make Vindaloo the national anthem? It's quite uplifting and seems capture a certain spirit of the country

And as an added bonus, you don't need to be able to sing very well to make a good go of it (though I'd love to see John Redwood trying)