Passengers detrain themselves in Bristol area (26/09)

[CC 72100]

Every summer the British railway system manages to strand passengers in vehicles with no opening windows, and no air conditioning, for hours.

Common factors in these incidents are overcrowding, extremely long waits, lack of resources to deal with emergencies, passengers being lied to, and extreme reluctance on the part of railway and emergency services to remove passengers from trains.

And how many of the above happened in this case?

Stranded for hours? Nope.
No opening windows? Nope
No air con? - Well I'll give you that one, but it's often windows or air con not both.

Extremely long waits? Highly subjective.
Passengers being lied to? No idea.

I'm not saying that it was a pleasant experience for those involved, and I'll probably be shot down for this, but if there was a train that was crowded to a point that I was unhappy/uncomfortable with, I just wouldn't get on.

 

[Henbury Loop]

Crikey those pictures are eye opening, it is a well known fact that people skip fares on that line - i wonder how many paid?

IIRC the only ticket machine is at Clifton Down CFN?

 

[Parallel]

IIRC the only ticket machine is at Clifton Down CFN?

If you are referring to the parking meter type machine, that was vandalised and I think has now been removed. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any TVMs currently at Clifton Down.

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[CC 72100]

The post in question is on the subject of preventing passengers from exiting trains. You have missed the point spectacularly.

I just thought I'd explore some of the points you mentioned. :roll:

 

[Llanigraham]

Every summer the British railway system manages to strand passengers in vehicles with no opening windows, and no air conditioning, for hours.

Common factors in these incidents are overcrowding, extremely long waits, lack of resources to deal with emergencies, passengers being lied to, and extreme reluctance on the part of railway and emergency services to remove passengers from trains.

If you make it impossible for people to leave, you will in fairly short order cause hundreds of deaths from heat exhaustion in these circumstances.

The possibilities offered by a sealed train to a lunatic or terrorist in possession of a suitable weapon are also quite fascinating.

Never mind, as other posters note, the consequences in the event of a fire.

What utter nonsense!!!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Its worth mentioning that people will still attempt to board no matter how overcrowded the train is. There have been countless times i have made PA announcements on a train that is full telling people not to board, that there is another train just a few minutes behind, yet they continue to board. In that scenario, what am i supposed to do? I cant close the doors until the doorways are clear.

In japan they employ people to physically push people onto the trains to get them on board.

Personally i couldnt travel on a train that was that crowded, ill wait for a later service....

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[Robertj21a]

What utter nonsense!!!

Why ? - I thought it seemed a rather sensible post.

 

[ComUtoR]

What about a system which notifies the driver that the handle has been pulled and the driver can override it - if he doesn't override within 3 seconds, it unlocks the door?

That adds a level of complexity to what requires to be a very simple system - button pressed/lever pulled, doors release - three seconds is a lot of time in a worst case scenario.

You would be surprised how complicated they already are. I can override both the passcom and the egress (sorta) and they both have safety overrides that will completely render them useless.

Does anyone know for certain that if a door has been locked out of use an egress will still open it ?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Does anyone know for certain that if a door has been locked out of use an egress will still open it ?

On desiro stock they will, i have tested this for myself under instructions from one of my competency managers, the locked door on pulling the egress handle released.

Voyagers however i dont believe so as it is a physical bolt that locks the door on those - at least i recall that being my understanding back in my VXC days. no doubt someone will tell me i am wrong!

 

[tsr]

Does anyone know for certain that if a door has been locked out of use an egress will still open it ?

It depends on the stock but on anything I sign, locking the door physically out of use will render an egress useless, but electronic isolation will not affect the mechanical handles.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Are there any safety/design regulations regarding the ability to egress doors even if locked out of use?

 

[Starmill]

Why ? - I thought it seemed a rather sensible post.

It was a bit dramatic, but that doesn't really mean the point doesn't stand; it'd be nonsense to remove an emergency egress facility!


I supposed Llanigraham has never been stranded in such a train.

 

[thelongestroad]

If the decision had been made and passengers had been offered buses/taxis on arrival at the relevant station (were they?), they might well not have taken this action.

Better sell them all tickets first before you start offering that.... of course that will come as a shock for those that try their best for a free ride from Clifton down to Montpelier/Stapleton Road!

Let's just say I'm not the least bit surprised about the behaviour of the passengers on that train on Saturday...

 

[Surreytraveller]

I think the problem is, is that passengers will always find a way to get off if they really want to. I've seen a passenger pull the doors apart on a 150 before when the train was stationary.

Indeed, if they couldn't so readily open the doors, they would end up smashing the windows causing even bigger problems!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

[1] Merseyrail units didn't used to have egress handles, though, they were retrofitted in about 2000. So maybe there were exceptions.

I think stock from that era you can just pull the doors apart - don't forget they were operating alongside slammers, so wouldn't have been seen as dangerous like it might do if they were being built now!. Egress handles were provided to be able to open them with less strength - possibly after the Ladbroke Grove crash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On Merseyrail you could pull doors apart but only about 6 inches, then you hit some sort of lock.

 

[bengley]

Every summer the British railway system manages to strand passengers in vehicles with no opening windows, and no air conditioning, for hours.

Common factors in these incidents are overcrowding, extremely long waits, lack of resources to deal with emergencies, passengers being lied to, and extreme reluctance on the part of railway and emergency services to remove passengers from trains.

If you make it impossible for people to leave, you will in fairly short order cause hundreds of deaths from heat exhaustion in these circumstances.

The possibilities offered by a sealed train to a lunatic or terrorist in possession of a suitable weapon are also quite fascinating.

Never mind, as other posters note, the consequences in the event of a fire.

Passengers who jump down from trains onto a live railway and risk being hit by trains are the ones 'out of their mind'.

I agree that it's ludicrous that people are kept on trains for so long in emergencies, but the solution to that is to have a more prompt and effective evacuation procedure, so that the passengers don't feel the need to do it themselves. Much safer.

 

[ComUtoR]

The safest place is in the train.



Cheers to Gimmie50 and tsr.

 

[PHILIPE]

Regardless of what happened obviously the passengers are in the wrong and really should be dealt with by the law (as they did break it!). But surely something else must have happened?

Montpelier station (the next stop after Redland) is less than a 10 minute walk away from Redland station, so surely the guard who announced that the train would no longer stop at Redland would have said for people to alight at Montpelier instead and walk?

And looking at Real Time Trains, the service was disrupted just after Clifton Down. Surely the skipping of Redland should have been announced before departing Clifton, so anyone who wanted to could have got off the train?

But it wasn't stopping at Montpelier either. GWR refer to the incident in the usual jargon language as "An Uncontrolled Evacuation".

 

[reb0118]

..... if there was a train that was crowded to a point that I was unhappy/uncomfortable with, I just wouldn't get on.

Yes, however we are dealing with stoodents here - paradoxically they are often not the sharpest tools in the box.

If possible in that situation I would have found the nearest licensed premises and returned a few hours later.

 

[greaterwest]

But it wasn't stopping at Montpelier either. GWR refer to the incident in the usual jargon language as "An Uncontrolled Evacuation".

Actually, that's quite impressive for GWR.

It's usually "emergency services dealing with an incident"

Every summer the British railway system manages to strand passengers in vehicles with no opening windows, and no air conditioning, for hours.

Common factors in these incidents are overcrowding, extremely long waits, lack of resources to deal with emergencies, passengers being lied to, and extreme reluctance on the part of railway and emergency services to remove passengers from trains.

If you make it impossible for people to leave, you will in fairly short order cause hundreds of deaths from heat exhaustion in these circumstances.

The possibilities offered by a sealed train to a lunatic or terrorist in possession of a suitable weapon are also quite fascinating.

Never mind, as other posters note, the consequences in the event of a fire.

You are of course aware that it was their decision to board that train? Although one could argue that the guard should not have allowed such a crowd of people onto a two carriage train.

 

[FordFocus]

Next time I'm stuck on the tarmac on a plane because of a technical fault and with the air conditioning not operable, I'll open a door and pull the evacuation slide out.

 

[greaterwest]

I am not defending bengley's post, by the way. Three seconds could indeed be a long time in an emergency situation.

As bengley said in his most recent reply, passengers remaining on trains for that amount of time is ludicrous and there really needs to be an improvement on the promptness of detraining passengers from stranded trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Next time I'm stuck on the tarmac on a plane because of a technical fault and with the air conditioning not operable, I'll open a door and pull the evacuation slide out.

This is a terrible analogy, a plane would not be as overcrowded as this train was and you'd be able to hear announcements from the customer hosts, who would themselves be told what is being done about the situation.

 

[Mojo]

You are of course aware that it was their decision to board that train? Although one could argue that the guard should not have allowed such a crowd of people onto a two carriage train.

lf people can physically fit onto the train, then l wouldn't like to be one to tell people that they cannot board it! Yes it was busy, and yes off-peak customers are not as disciplined as commuters, but l can't see of a reason to deny boarding, especially on a service that only runs 3 trains every 2 hours.

 

[greaterwest]

lf people can physically fit onto the train, then l wouldn't like to be one to tell people that they cannot board it! Yes it was busy, and yes off-peak customers are not as disciplined as commuters, but l can't see of a reason to deny boarding, especially on a service that only runs 3 trains every 2 hours.

I think "not as disciplined" is a rather distant description of the behaviour shown by these particular passengers. I'm probably being hopeful by saying that they should have planned ahead, i.e. get the previous train.

 

[FordFocus]

This is a terrible analogy, a plane would not be as overcrowded as this train was and you'd be able to hear announcements from the customer hosts, who would themselves be told what is being done about the situation.

The evacuation principle is the same.

 

[PHILIPE]

lf people can physically fit onto the train, then l wouldn't like to be one to tell people that they cannot board it! Yes it was busy, and yes off-peak customers are not as disciplined as commuters, but l can't see of a reason to deny boarding, especially on a service that only runs 3 trains every 2 hours.

Something that stands out on TOCs Twitter Feeds are the amount of people complaining re overcrowded trains quoting "Health and Safety" only to be told there are no such regulations regarding the number of people on a train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually, that's quite impressive for GWR.

It's usually "emergency services dealing with an incident"

This comment re Uncontrolled evacuation wasn't on Journey Check but on a quote to the media from a Company spokesman.

 

[greaterwest]

The evacuation principle is the same.

Not really, there would be people on-call for a plane, especially as your original post implies that it'd be in an airport.

If it crash / emergency landed elsewhere then yes, that would be the case.

Passengers detraining themselves due to heat/crowding (on a train with opening windows, correct me if I'm wrong) is unheard of. Looking at the photos in the epigram article, that train was dangerously overcrowded and the emergency services should have done something about it sooner. They were in the middle of a Bristol suburb, it wouldn't have taken long, although I admit there is a huge difference between saying it here and it actually happening.

But that takes us back to "the detraining procedure needs to be improved".

 

[MarkyT]

Looking at the Bristol Post picture the train looks like it had actually passed the loop end signal where it stopped so was thus actually in the single line section already although it hadn't passed the loop turnout yet. That tallies with one of the 'I was there' accounts in the Bristol Post online comments, which recounts a 15 minute wait at Clifton Down. The train appeared not to have 'drawn up' to the loop signal, rather it waited for a proceed and dispatched straight from the platform, but then had an emergency alarm from the passenger compartment just afterwards and stopped abruptly, passing the signal, and thus blocking the single line for further movements in either direction. That was probably the initiating event that triggered the subsequent chaos. Perhaps in these tunnels and cuttings, 'urban rules' should apply and a passenger alarm between stations should always result in a stop at next station rather than a stop ASAP. But then in this case the next station has been closed due to crowd safety concerns. Now what to do? With such a brain overload it's not unreasonable to decide to take the seemingly failsafe action of just stopping the train where it is, but practically that's a bad decision because of the interlocking consequences and because there are no easy evac routes in this tightly retained cutting and tunnel environment.

I'm not excusing the passengers at all but a long unexplained wait tantalisingly close to the platform they've just left is tempting fate a little, especially with the particular crowd that day. It's a fair assumption that amongst a group of festivalling student types there's a fair likelyhood of a 'spirited' one or two who might try and lead the revolution against the tyrannical regime that's holding them there against their will, oh and (insert latest hipster band sensation) is headlining at the weasel and artichoke at three o'clock so they'll not want their afternoon of fun disturbed . . . etc. There's a reason music festivals are probably best held in big fields away from centres of urban population!