Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Darren R]

With the chronic overcrowding on Borders Rail...

Would these wee beasties be suitable?

Somehow I can't imagine Queen Nicola sanctioning the use of cast-off London Underground trains on her shiny new railway....

 

[Greybeard33]

Originally Posted by Claire Perry
I can assure Members that the current franchise negotiations for the northern and TPE routes will be transformational for passengers in the north. Train capacity into major cities will increase by 30%. There will be brand-new trains, not the Pacers and not reworked tube rolling stock. Existing trains will be fully modernised. There will be £30 million of northern station investment funds. I could go on. The franchise negotiations will transform travel in the north and change passenger experiences from among the worst to some of the best in the country.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm150916/halltext/150916h0001.htm

This quote could be interpreted to mean just that the "brand new trains" will not be 230s (or ePacers) - she did not explicitly say that there will be no 230s at all in the north.

Later in the same answer the Rail Minister said (my bolding):

By the way, there is this idea that we are somehow not investing in the north, but has the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) travelled on the new electric trains that run between Manchester and Liverpool and Liverpool and Wigan? Electrification has come to that part of the UK for the first time. I hope that he will join me in celebrating the fact that those cities now have new electric trains, which were delivered by this Government, as promised.

Hopefully in Perry-speak "brand-new trains" really does mean newly-manufactured, not just new to the north of England like the 319s!

 

[Chris125]

With the chronic overcrowding on Borders Rail...

Would these wee beasties be suitable?

I can't imagine they'd be fast enough to be used on the line itself, but they could help indirectly by freeing up units elsewhere.

 

[47802]

If Northern are getting some new trains then using D trains doesn't make any sense, why introduce another train type also as they may get cascaded train types not currently used on the Northern Franchise, and has been pointed out before the train you actually get may be based more on capacity than the actual route, therefore having a train with limited top speed and no compatibility with any other Northern train isn't ideal.

It looks like Northern will get most cascaded stock available so the choice for other franchises will be build new, D trains, or upgraded Railbuses.

Yesturday I was on a dirty smelly disgusting piece of garbage and no it wasn't a Mersey Rail 142 it was a 155 which are just as bad apart from the ride, and that was on a Calder valley fast service a link between major northern towns and cities and you get that piece of garbage.

The government made rod for their own back with the Northern Franchise and now its pay back time.

 

[northwichcat]

It looks like Northern will get most cascaded stock available so the choice for other franchises will be build new, D trains, or upgraded Railbuses.

Well the Northern ITT says any 15x or 17x off-lease can be taken on. While in theory bidders could propose taking none of them on and ordering only new trains, I think given the subsidy concern Northern will in fact take on any 15x or 17x they can get hold of to keep the number of new carriages to around the minimum 120.
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Parliamentary question posed by Lillian Greenwood and response from Claire Perry

Asked by Lilian Greenwood
To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, pursuant to the Answer of 10 September 2015 to Question 9152, and with reference to page 214 of his Department's Great Western Franchise Agreement of 22 March 2015, what advice he received from the Rail Safety and Standards Board and the Office of Rail and Road prior to his decision to include in that Agreement a requirement for the Great Western franchisee to develop proposals for main line trial deployment of converted Class 230 trains taking into account the applicability and safety implications of the deviations granted to D78 London Underground rolling stock in 2002 for (a) non-fitment of train protection and warning system in-cab equipment and (b) non-compliance with railway group standards structural requirements for windscreens and windows.

Answered by Claire Perry
The Secretary of State has not decided to require the Great Western franchisee to develop proposals for main line train deployment of converted Class 230 trains.　 The obligation in the new First Great Western franchise agreement is for the Franchisee to submit an initial feasibility study.　 The franchise agreement makes clear that any proposals for a trial that might derive from that report would be subject to a separate decision by the Secretary of State and would be subject to initial examination confirming likely viability.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...ts/written-question/Commons/2015-09-11/10085/

 

[Chris125]

God knows where she got the idea they won't have TPWS or replacement windows.

 

[route:oxford]

God knows where she got the idea they won't have TPWS or replacement windows.

Somebody probably lied to her.

Could be worse...

She could got some of the contributors all excited if she had mentioned lavatories or buffets (Both available as options).

 

[kieron]

More versatile than 142s and 144s and possibly 150/1s.

Northern certainly won't have any trouble finding places where they would be useful.

God knows where she got the idea they won't have TPWS or replacement windows.

I'd assume that someone asked her about it recently. As I doubt she's an expert in train windows, "I'll ask the minister" seems like a fairly safe way to handle technical questions like that.

I feel there will be a lot more mentions of these trains in parliament before the first one enters passenger service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Northern are getting some new trains then using D trains doesn't make any sense

Do you not want the capacity problem solving? Northern need both new trains and D-trains or similar. Just as LM need both the nice new 350s and a load of extra 319s.

 

[185]

Ideal for something mildly self contained like Wrexham Bidston, or a quiet branch line, but for something struggling alongside express trains - nah. Perfect starter-stock for line reopenings done cheaply, perhaps like Anglesey's Amwlch line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do you not want the capacity problem solving? Northern need both new trains and a lot of extra 319's. Just as LM need both the nice new 350s and D-trains or similar.

Now then, doesn't your posting look much better with the emboldened transpositions that I have made...

 

[Wolfie]

Do you not want the capacity problem solving? Northern need both new trains and a lot of extra 319s (or 317s or 315s) to replace all of the 323s and the 350s currently being used by TPE. Just as LM need both the nice new 350s and D-trains or similar.

Now then, doesn't your posting look much better with the emboldened transpositions that I have made...

Not as good as my version!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now then, doesn't your posting look much better with the emboldened transpositions that I have made...

D-trains would be useful for a few LM lines such as Bedford-Bletchley, Coventry-Nuneaton and some of the West Midlands locals, yes, but running them under the wires when there are plenty of EMUs soon going spare would seem silly.

 

[Class377/5]

Roger Ford e-preview had some interesting comments. Including that the ride (others agreed) "be better than a pacer". Also Iam Walmsey believes front end protection could be better than a 150.

 

[physics34]

Apparently Abellio Anglia are looking at the possibility of using D-Trains and also Southern for Marshlink services.

would solve the stock shortage issues on the Marshlink and Uckfield lines until southern get the remaining 170s (currently subleased to scotrail - if we do ever get those!).... but wouldnt want them on the marshline as a permanent solution.

Ashford to Brighton is a fairly long way, not sure that these are suitable.

 

[JonathanH]

would solve the stock shortage issues on the Marshlink and Uckfield lines until southern get the remaining 170s (currently subleased to scotrail - if we do ever get those!).... but wouldnt want them on the marshline as a permanent solution.

Ashford to Brighton is a fairly long way, not sure that these are suitable.

Presumably the D-trains would be used Ashford to Rye or Hastings only, in particular on the peak only Rye shuttles etc to free up 170s for other services. They might be reasonably appropriate for that.

 

[Chris125]

Roger Ford e-preview had some interesting comments. Including that the ride (others agreed) "be better than a pacer". Also Iam Walmsey believes front end protection could be better than a 150.

I'm sure he won't a few selected quotes, the whole thing can be found in the archive of e-previews here.

For our test run we bimbled around the Quinton track reaching a maximum speed of 30-35 mile/h. The five cylinder engines purring away under the floor were less noticeable than, say, a Cummins in a Meridian. When we started power pick-up was smooth and vibration free and the ride was agreed by my fellow travellers to be better than a Pacer (not difficult). You can find the sound level measurements in Mr Walmsley’s column.

Early criticism of the Vivarail project focused on the lack of crashworthiness of the cab ends. But from inside the cab the safety cage is massive and has been beefed up following the crash test. Mr Walmsley reckons protection is superior to a Pacer and could even be better than the Class 150 front end.

As for the Plymouth-Gunnislake trial...

This has exposed some interesting internal DfT politics. Rail Minister Claire Perry, who is clearly not a Vivarail fan, claimed in a recent written answer that the obligation in the FGW franchise agreement covers only an initial feasibility study. According to Claire, the franchise agreement makes clear that any proposals for a trial that might derive from that report would be subject to a separate decision by the Secretary of State and would be subject to initial examination confirming likely viability.

Well, FGW inspected the first vehicle back in July and has begun planning for the trial. So it looks as though ‘likely viability’ has been confirmed and someone in New Minster House has given the go ahead. As ever, is it Claire or the civil servant who drafted the reply the one out of the loop?

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm sure he won't a few selected quotes, the whole thing can be found in the archive of e-previews here.


As for the Plymouth-Gunnislake trial...

This has exposed some interesting internal DfT politics. Rail Minister Claire Perry, who is clearly not a Vivarail fan, claimed in a recent written answer that the obligation in the FGW franchise agreement covers only an initial feasibility study. According to Claire, the franchise agreement makes clear that any proposals for a trial that might derive from that report would be subject to a separate decision by the Secretary of State and would be subject to initial examination confirming likely viability.

Well, FGW inspected the first vehicle back in July and has begun planning for the trial. So it looks as though ‘likely viability’ has been confirmed and someone in New Minster House has given the go ahead. As ever, is it Claire or the civil servant who drafted the reply the one out of the loop?

I note that the DfT's Rolling Stock Perspective - Moving Britain Ahead document, dated July 2015, which has a foreword by Claire Perry, avoids any mention of Vivarail and the Class 230. On the other hand, it includes the following:

There have been some very good examples of recent innovation, both technical and in design
and style. While the market will determine their success, a couple are worth highlighting:

• IPEMU (Independently Powered EMU): this innovative project saw a battery powered train
  operating in passenger service in January and February this year on the Greater Anglia
  network. The technology used has potential to reduce the cost of electrification or to
  replace DMUs on branch lines without the need for overhead lines.
  
• Tomorrow’s Train Design Today: this is a really exciting competition....

 

[Taunton]

I think the key problem that Vivarail have with the DfT is a "Not Invented Here" attitude by the latter, and TOCs who have come to recognise that toadying to the DfT line is the way to go (which, given that they hand out the franchises, it is).

 

[gimmea50anyday]

But then again the DFT has that oft quoted mantra that train procurement is down to the individual operator....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But then again the DFT has that oft quoted mantra that train procurement is down to the individual operator....

In the oft-repeated phrase...."Well, they would say that, wouldn't they"...:roll:

 

[krus_aragon]

Ideal for something mildly self contained like Wrexham Bidston, or a quiet branch line, but for something struggling alongside express trains - nah. Perfect starter-stock for line reopenings done cheaply, perhaps like Anglesey's Amwlch line.

Yes please!

(They've only been working on reopening it since before I was born, grumble munge grumble...)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, we are almost at the end of September 2015. How full is the Vivarail order and production book for Class 230 units so far?

 

[route:oxford]

Well, we are almost at the end of September 2015. How full is the Vivarail order and production book for Class 230 units so far?

Let us know when you've received your response...

When did you send your email to Vivarail?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us know when you've received your response...

When did you send your email to Vivarail?

Monday, 21st September 2015.
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Perfect starter-stock for line reopenings done cheaply, perhaps like Anglesey's Amwlch line.

Be careful when referring to that particular line as you will re-awaken the aspirational hopes of the Ynys Mon community....They will be stirred into action by demanding that the Benllech and Red Wharf Bay branch line be also reopened as a going concern...

 

[Chris125]

Well, we are almost at the end of September 2015. How full is the Vivarail order and production book for Class 230 units so far?

It hasn't conducted a single mainline trip yet, let alone proved that it's innovative traction system is reliable in day-to-day operation - it would be foolhardy for anyone to commit themselves until they see how the Gunnislake trial goes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It hasn't conducted a single mainline trip yet, let alone proved that it's innovative traction system is reliable in day-to-day operation - it would be foolhardy for anyone to commit themselves until they see how the Gunnislake trial goes.

If that be the case, why was it reported that Adrian Shooter had commented that it would be best for orders to be placed soon as they had a limited number of units to sell.

 

[47802]

If that be the case, why was it reported that Adrian Shooter had commented that it would be best for orders to be placed soon as they had a limited number of units to sell.

they do have a limited number to sell all 75 of them, as a salesman he going to say things like that isn't he.

Meanwhile on the Vivarail website it contains as much bull**** as Jeremy Corbyn's speech Oh for the interests of balance David Cameron's speech next week as well

 

[Taunton]

It will serve DfT right if Shooter sold all 75 units to an operator on the Continent

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will serve DfT right if Shooter sold all 75 units to an operator on the Continent

Doubt that would happen, as they are high-floor units, and the need for DMUs in much of mainland Europe is for low-floor units.