Rugby Union

[Bevan Price]

Truly shocking by England, Lancaster has to go and so must quite a few players.
Unfortunately we have become serial bottlers in big games and to lose 2 games at Twickenham is unforgiveable.
ITV won't be pleased as all the part-time rugby fans have now finished watching it.

Too many penalties given away - again.

 

[Liam]

ITV won't be pleased as all the part-time rugby fans have now finished watching it.

Only the English ones

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder how many of those watching the ITV coverage have been gradually driven to the mute button on the remote control every time the truly awful rendition of "The world in Union" by someone called Paloma Faith is transmitted. We even find the odd snippets in advert breaks are intensely annoying.

What has the orang-utan in the adverts got to do with the tournament. Indonesia are not fielding a team.

 

[backontrack]

I wonder how many of those watching the ITV coverage have been gradually driven to the mute button on the remote control every time the truly awful rendition of "The world in Union" by someone called Paloma Faith is transmitted. We even find the odd snippets in advert breaks are intensely annoying.

Not really, we just ignore it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And now, the Geordie version of the Haka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4X5EcYg4g
[YOUTUBE]Ix4X5EcYg4g[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Butts]

I wonder how many of those watching the ITV coverage have been gradually driven to the mute button on the remote control every time the truly awful rendition of "The world in Union" by someone called Paloma Faith is transmitted. We even find the odd snippets in advert breaks are intensely annoying.

What has the orang-utan in the adverts got to do with the tournament. Indonesia are not fielding a team.

It should be on the BBC of course

Although Scotland lost to South Africa they can still qualify by defeating Samoa.

 

[Greenback]

Commiserations to England. They have a good young squad, but they are inexperienced. They have to learn how to win big games. I agree with Michael Lynagh when he said the tournament will be poorer without the hosts.

I also agree with what Jonny Wilkinson said after the game. They need time to continue the building process, just like the 2003 cup winning side needed time to develop.

We in Wales have painful memories of chopping and changing the coaching staff. It didn't work for us, and I don;t think it will work for England to get rid of Stuart Lancaster at this point either.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Michael Cheika has risen to the task of turning around the fortunes of the Australian national Rugby Union side since his appointment and is shrewd enough to make the right replacements to keep the team motivation going when necessary.

 

[DarloRich]

We in Wales have painful memories of chopping and changing the coaching staff. It didn't work for us, and I don;t think it will work for England to get rid of Stuart Lancaster at this point either.

Lancaster cant survive that World Cup performance. We need to pinch the Welsh coach.

 

[Johnuk123]

Commiserations to England. They have a good young squad, but they are inexperienced. They have to learn how to win big games. I agree with Michael Lynagh when he said the tournament will be poorer without the hosts.

I also agree with what Jonny Wilkinson said after the game. They need time to continue the building process, just like the 2003 cup winning side needed time to develop.

We in Wales have painful memories of chopping and changing the coaching staff. It didn't work for us, and I don;t think it will work for England to get rid of Stuart Lancaster at this point either.

England are over-coached and have all the flair knocked out of them by Lancaster, they aren't nice to watch they are workmanlike and quite boring.

They certainly don't have a good young squad, they have about 5 decent players with a captain who cannot make the right call at the right time. Robshaw tries hard but is simply not good enough probably one of the worst captains we've had for many years.

They are miles and miles away from a top side, they are an embarrassment and this result will stay with them for many years.

Lancasters record is 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd in Six nations and a group stage exit in a home World Cup, poor very poor. Not picking overseas players is stupid.

I imagine the match against Uruguay will be switched to ITV 9.

£315 to watch that ? fans should be refunded.

 

[Greenback]

Lancaster cant survive that World Cup performance. We need to pinch the Welsh coach.

Don't you dare!

England are over-coached and have all the flair knocked out of them by Lancaster, they aren't nice to watch they are workmanlike and quite boring.

That has been true in this tournament. They have played some good rugby under Lancaster before the World Cup. This tournament is just too soon for the squad he has built. He has made some mistakes, but he will learn from them just like Woodward did.

They certainly don't have a good young squad, they have about 5 decent players with a captain who cannot make the right call at the right time. Robshaw tries hard but is simply not good enough probably one of the worst captains we've had for many years.

They have some very good young players. Watson, Joseph, Brown and Ford are very good players who I'd be pleased to have available fro Wales. The forwards are not so strong I admit, the back row is weak and the balance is not right, but I'm a big fan of Launchbury.

They are miles and miles away from a top side, they are an embarrassment and this result will stay with them for many years.

It hurts when your team loses and is out of a World Cup, especially when the media has built that team up into something they are not. But throwing everything that has been done over the past four years away is not going to do any good unless the replacement coaching team are a lot better than what you've got.

Lancasters record is 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd in Six nations and a group stage exit in a home World Cup, poor very poor. Not picking overseas players is stupid.

I imagine the match against Uruguay will be switched to ITV 9.

£315 to watch that ? fans should be refunded.

The anger reminds me of how Wales fans react when we lose big games. After our loss to England earlier this year in Cardiff I was reading much the same thing about Gatland's recent record and the next Wales match on Welsh rugby forums!

 

[Johnuk123]

It hurts when your team loses and is out of a World Cup, especially when the media has built that team up into something they are not. But throwing everything that has been done over the past four years away is not going to do any good unless the replacement coaching team are a lot better than what you've got.

The anger reminds me of how Wales fans react when we lose big games. After our loss to England earlier this year in Cardiff I was reading much the same thing about Gatland's recent record and the next Wales match on Welsh rugby forums!

I don't see that much has been done over the last 4 years, I would say by and large England have actually remained pretty static.

I'm sure if England scoured the southern hemisphere we could find a coach with a winning mentality who could turn us around into something half decent.
Personally I wouldn't pay the exorbitant ticket prices to watch what we saw yesterday which wasn't rugby you'd cross the road to watch.

 

[Greenback]

People, probably more likely to be those outside of England the country at this moment in time, seem to think that England have progressed immeasurably since the 2011 World Cup if the rugby forums I read are anything to go by.

One of England, Wales or Australia was always going to go out from the group of death. That the 2011 England team progressed further is down to circumstance. They were shambolic four years ago, both on the field and off it.

It's just my opinion, but Lancaster and hi staff became too cautious during this tournament on the back of expectation and media hype. I'm sure that he will learn a lot form this if he is allowed to continue.

I think he should be allowed to continue with his work, which is very much still in progress. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if a knee jerk reaction to what is seen as abject failure and humiliation sees him forced out.

 

[SkinnyDave]

I also think that a Northern Hemisphere team will struggle to win a World Cup in the modern game unless they start developing players like McCaw, Hooper, Pockock and Burger!
The Breakdown area is arguably the most important part of the game just now and quite simply Pockock and Hooper were immense last night!
I do not see any other team winning it over and above the original Tri-Nation teams with Australia being my fav although the All Blacks I think have been playing games they are not as poor as they are making out.

 

[Oswyntail]

I don't see that much has been done over the last 4 years, I would say by and large England have actually remained pretty static...

People, probably more likely to be those outside of England the country at this moment in time, seem to think that England have progressed immeasurably since the 2011 World Cup if the rugby forums I read are anything to go by....

What we have from John is the standard reaction in England to any sporting defeat - back to the drawing board, this lot are rubbish, get rid of everything. So often the authorities take that advice, leading to a cycle of inexperienced under achievement.
What Greenback has said is nearer the truth. The team were overwhelmed by the occasion, but this should not make us ignore the quality that is there. Perhaps the selection of Burgess was a mistake, but there was little else to argue with. What must be dealt with is the perception that England are ill-disciplined at the breakdown. Perhaps they are, but no more so than other top teams - but because this is their reputation, they have to be whiter than white.
That said, the games involving lesser teams have generally been of much higher quality than those between "top" teams. And two of the three real shocks of the tournament have involved England losses.

 

[Liam]

I also think that a Northern Hemisphere team will struggle to win a World Cup in the modern game unless they start developing players like McCaw, Hooper, Pockock and Burger!

Or Steffon Armitage? Oh, wait...

Since winning the World cup England have won one 6 nations championship, but have finished second 6 times. Are they big time bottlers or just not good enough?

 

[richw]

We need to ditch the ludicrous rule of not picking players who play overseas.

The last 2 European players of the year are English. Due to RFU rules neither are allowed to be selected as they play in France (for the best two teams in Europe, so not even mediocre teams). Both of these players are in superb form. Yet we pick non-English players on residency ruling.

 

[Oswyntail]

Or Steffon Armitage? Oh, wait...

Since winning the World cup England have won one 6 nations championship, but have finished second 6 times. Are they big time bottlers or just not good enough?

There is obviously a problem - but that is not a terrible record!

 

[backontrack]

Yes, Scotland and France would be jealous

 

[Johnuk123]

There is obviously a problem - but that is not a terrible record!

Obviously a problem ? I can imagine the All Blacks thinking that permanent second place is not a terrible record.

Second place is nowhere.

 

[Hadders]

I can't see Lancaster surviving. Thankfully the delayed Premiership Rugby season starts in a couple of weeks

FWIW I believe the RFU is right not to pick players based overseas. Players potentially get paid a lot more money to play in France. What would happen is that all of the best English talent would move to France. The problem is that the RFU would have no control over these players for training camps or how many matches they play etc. Currently the RFU has a long term agreement with the Premiership Clubs over player release and welfare.

The RFU wereclear in saying they would not pick overseas based players. To change that a few months away from the World Cup would have destroyed the team morale - what would have been the point of playing in England if the policy was over turned.

 

[Liam]

There is obviously a problem - but that is not a terrible record!

Sorry, but a single 6 Nations title in 12 years is not good enough for England. As the previous poster said, when you have the resources England have, second place cannot be considered any sort of success.

 

[richw]

FWIW I believe the RFU is right not to pick players based overseas. Players potentially get paid a lot more money to play in France. What would happen is that all of the best English talent would move to France. The problem is that the RFU would have no control over these players for training camps or how many matches they play etc. Currently the RFU has a long term agreement with the Premiership Clubs over player release and welfare.

the coaching standards and development in France is much better due to lack of wage cap. Wilkinson played the best rugby of his career after moving to Toulon, Armatage the same, Abendenin again incredible development since moving to Clermont.
But for every pro there is a con, but for every con there is a pro. Drawing a pros and cons list there is pretty much equal length lists.

 

[Oswyntail]

Sorry, but a single 6 Nations title in 12 years is not good enough for England. As the previous poster said, when you have the resources England have, second place cannot be considered any sort of success.

I never said it was good enough. But it is ridiculous to use macho tosh like "second is nowhere" or "second is no sort of success". There is obviously quality in the team, so why have they underperformed? There are external elements - for the three other home nations, for instance, and touring sides, the England game is always the one they want to win. There is also the traditional approach of the English press, usually recently retired players, who seem unfazed by maintaining that the team cannot fail with the resources they have, while simultaneously saying the players/skills/tactics are much worse than in their day.
The real question is: why do all professional high-profile England teams (and a good few other England sportsmen) underperform so regularly?

 

[Johnuk123]

It is ridiculous to use macho tosh like "second is nowhere" or "second is no sort of success". There is obviously quality in the team, so why have they underperformed?

They have probably underperformed because a lot of them have your mind-set.

Do you think all the really great sports people who actually won things would have done so well if they thought coming second was fine as it's nearly first really.

He's more "macho tosh" for you - When your second your simply the first loser.

 

[Oswyntail]

They have probably underperformed because a lot of them have your mind-set.

Do you think all the really great sports people who actually won things would have done so well if they thought coming second was fine as it's nearly first really.

He's more "macho tosh" for you - When your second your simply the first loser.

Never one for actually reading what was written, are you John. If you believe that any of the England rugby squad would be satisfied with coming second, you have never worked with top-level sportsmen. So your trite cliches are irrelevant. The record is good, but not good enough. So - why do England teams under-perform.

 

[richw]

Billy Vunipola has allegedly made some interesting comments in the presence of some media after some beers that Farrell pretty much lead the squad, and Burgess got picked due to Farrells coaching to play like rugby league.
I've not seen a reliable source although these comments make sense to what I have seen in this World Cup.
There is a transcript of Vunipola's comments in a discussion with Kyran Bracken doing the rounds on a couple of rugby forums.

 

[Hornet]

Billy Vunipola has allegedly made some interesting comments in the presence of some media after some beers that Farrell pretty much lead the squad, and Burgess got picked due to Farrells coaching to play like rugby league.
I've not seen a reliable source although these comments make sense to what I have seen in this World Cup.
There is a transcript of Vunipola's comments in a discussion with Kyran Bracken doing the rounds on a couple of rugby forums.

From the Leinster Forum:-

This showed up on one of those rugby banter pages and was apparently found on the Quins forum:

"From a friend before the game yesterday:

So, it turns out Kieran Bracken’s next-door neighbour is the senior partner at a City litigation law firm called Stewarts Law. Last night they held a RWC gathering which was hosted by Bracken. As part of the proceedings—after David “rent-a-gob” Campese had spent 15 minutes railing against everything in modern rugby—Bracken got hold of the mic and did a Q&A with injured England no. 8 Billy Vunipola! who had a beer in his hand and appeared to have a couple more inside him…

Bracken:
When you were interviewed after the game against Fiji you said you didn’t know you’d scored the bonus-point try—that was a strange thing to say…
Billy:
Not at all. None of us knew bonus points were part of this world cup. No one had told us.

[…]

Bracken:
What’s Stuart Lancaster like to work with as a coach?
BillyV:
I don’t know.
Bracken:
What do you mean?
BillyV:
Stuart doesn’t coach the team, Andy Farrell does. I’ve never been coached by Stuart.
Campo, butting in:
What effect has that had on the way the team plays?
Billy:
He makes us play like a rugby league team.

(Campo then goes off on one about England’s terrible style of play is and how the RFU should just bite the bullet and hire an experienced international coach. To be fair, he’s absolutely spot on with that).

[…]

Campo:
So what do you think about England picking Sam Burgess?
BillyV:
It’s been disruptive. The whole squad is unhappy about it.
Bracken:
WHAT? Why?
BillyV:
Luther Burrell earned his place in the RWC squad and Sam didn’t. Luther should have been picked, not Sam.

[…]

Bracken:
And how are you enjoying playing under Chris Robshaw?
BillyV:
*Shrugs shoulders, sips beer, says nothing*

So, that’s OK then.

Meanwhile Jake—who seems to have got himself quite close to the England camp—is saying that Mike Catt walked out of last week’s selection meeting and vowed not to return: seems Farrell is not only coaching the team but picking it as well…"

http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24166

 

[backontrack]

So, any players that should/shouldn't have been picked that weren't/were ?

I think it's surprising that they didn't have more confidence in Jack Nowell and George Ford after the Six Nations.

 

[richw]

So, any players that should/shouldn't have been picked that weren't/were ?

I think it's surprising that they didn't have more confidence in Jack Nowell and George Ford after the Six Nations.

I think we needed some more senior players, we had a lot of inexperienced players.

George ford had a natural disadvantage with his competition being the coaches son.

Jack nowell is a different type of winger to what we have been using. Jack isn't the quick pacy winger, he's a strong tackler, and runs with big strength rather than speed.

 

[backontrack]

George ford had a natural disadvantage with his competition being the coaches son.

Yeah, with Andy picking the team...