TPE passengers unhappy about toilets and standard of facilities

[northwichcat]

Toilets on trains run by First TransPennine Express have generated a greater volume of complaints than any other rail company in the UK.

Facilities in TransPennine carriages were responsible for 2.7 per cent of all complaints made by its passengers in April-June 2015.

The figure is over a third higher than a year ago.

The companies with the next highest volume of complaints about toilets were CrossCountry and Virgin East Coast (both 2.2 per cent), according to provisional figures from the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).

First TransPennine Express operates services across the north of England and in central and southern Scotland.

It received a subsidy of £43.5 million from the Government in 2014-15, the equivalent of 2.3 pence for every kilometre travelled by one passenger.

Besides receiving the highest volume of complaints about toilets, the company also received the second highest volume of complaints about both the overall standard of facilities (18.6 per cent) and the helpfulness and attitude of staff on trains (5.2 per cent).

But Transpennine enjoyed one of the lowest scores for complaints about punctuality and reliability of its services, however: 12.6 per cent.

Read more: http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/n...bring-most-complaints-1-7509287#ixzz3qipplP9K

I don't think replacing 185s with 156s will have helped. Although, with 185s carrying many more passengers than they were designed for I imagine the retention toilets probably don't have enough capacity to last all day.

 

[thealexweb]

From my home station's point of view, Bolton, Transpennine has been getting generally worse year on year for the past few years. It started at the December 2013 timetable change I recall.

We had a bi-hourly service to Cumbria at one point, alternating between Windermere and Barrow-in-Furness. We also had Transpennine services to Scotland too, but I do believe they are likely to return in the next few years in a reduced form (possibly pick-up / set down only and a few pass only).

Stock wise, yes Transpennine North West has been stripped of all but a handful of its Class 185s which is a real shame. With the Class 156s there is no catering, no first class, no seat reservations, etc. We have some services which were run with 2 x Class 185s a few years ago now running with 2 x Class 156s. How does that work considering the current passenger growth through the Manchester -> Bolton -> Preston corridor.

 

[northwichcat]

From my home station's point of view, Bolton, Transpennine has been getting generally worse year on year for the past few years. It started at the December 2013 timetable change I recall.

I think you mean December 2007. Prior to that Bolton had an hourly class 185 service to Cumbria (alternating between Barrow and Windermere) and a 2 hourly Virgin Voyager service to Scotland (alternating between Edinburgh and Glasgow.) That meant some hours there were 3 services with catering and FC between Manchester and Preston via Bolton by the time those facilities were available on all the TPE Blackpool services as well.

 

[thealexweb]

I think you mean December 2007. Prior to that Bolton had an hourly class 185 service to Cumbria (alternating between Barrow and Windermere) and a 2 hourly Virgin Voyager service to Scotland (alternating between Edinburgh and Glasgow.)

Maybe I have remembered this a little wrong. But there was definatly more Cumbira services in 2013 than there is now. Now there is about five north and three south a day (excluding Farnworth tunnel work).

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe I have remembered this a little wrong. But there was definatly more Cumbira services in 2013 than there is now. Now there is about five north and three south a day (excluding Farnworth tunnel work).

You were implying the cutbacks for Bolton started in 2013, which is why I said what happened in 2007. Pre-December 2007 Manchester Airport to Windermere was a regular 2 hourly service, which was cutback to free up 185s for Scottish services. Northern did introduce a Manchester Victoria-Preston service in December 2008 but that didn't have FC or catering (well the 180s used on some services initially did have declassified FC.)

Barrow services remained as 2 hourly until more recently when Scottish services went hourly (mainly via Wigan), so you're probably thinking of when Barrow services got cutback, opposed to what happened a few years prior to that when Windermere services were cut back to a token service.

 

[cin88]

I'd like to take this moment to point out an irony, Bolton's town motto is "overcome delays" (according to one translation anyway). Yet pretty much everything is delayed in Bolton, busses, trains, infastructure work, the lot.

One reason I don't commute by train unless on training courses is because the service from Bolton or my home station is already one big mobile game of sardines by the time it gets to the station. It's usually worse on the TPE trains in my experience.

 

[185]

The position of the CET tank has caused problems at one end. Driver was told to continue driving with.... a fractured bogtank leaking into the cab floor!

 

[BestWestern]

The position of the CET tank has caused problems at one end. Driver was told to continue driving with.... a fractured bogtank leaking into the cab floor!

I presume that request was politely declined?!

Seriously, a newspaper has now conducted a survey not just of passenger complaints, but specifically those with toilet gripes? :roll:

 

[RAPC]

Seriously, a newspaper has now conducted a survey not just of passenger complaints, but specifically those with toilet gripes? :roll:

No, the newspaper is reporting findings from ORR data.

 

[DarloRich]

How does that work considering the current passenger growth through the Manchester -> Bolton -> Preston corridor.

it doesn't: but it is 2 x 156 or the bus. Your choice.

 

[northwichcat]

it doesn't: but it is 2 x 156 or the bus. Your choice.

There's also National Express coaches. While for part of the day there is no service NX run southbound services at 08:00 and 08:25 and northbound services at 17:25 and 18:15 for £2.45 each way and a guaranteed seat if you're sold a ticket.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The point has already been made that the number of punters using TPE has vastly outstripped expectations meaning that things like toilets arnt maybe what they should be. Id have said that the Northern 156 Hire Inns would be better toilet wise as from my experience they do seam to make an effort to keep them nice and they arnt retention fitted so cant go OOU for that reason. It occurs to me that LM have had tank issues also so could this be a Diziro tank size problem in general? Certainly I recall in the days of 185s regularly going to Scotland that tanks were often full by mid day. Even the 350s arnt immune, is the depot they stable at North of the border equipped for sucking the crap out of them? Complaints about general standard of service and overcrouding are IMO Justified and as an opperater I dont rate TPE 1 bit so agree with whats been said. Agreed the stock they have doesnt help and Id be interested to see what happens if they get summit like loco hauled 442s - maybe things will improve? They could I agree though do with a few staffing changes or at the very least a course in how to smile. No offence to nice TPE staff on here, I know you do exist.

 

[physics34]

not enough toliets on these services. You shouldnt have to queue everytime nature calls.

 

[Aldaniti]

The point has already been made that the number of punters using TPE has vastly outstripped expectations meaning that things like toilets arnt maybe what they should be. Id have said that the Northern 156 Hire Inns would be better toilet wise as from my experience they do seam to make an effort to keep them nice and they arnt retention fitted so cant go OOU for that reason. It occurs to me that LM have had tank issues also so could this be a Diziro tank size problem in general? Certainly I recall in the days of 185s regularly going to Scotland that tanks were often full by mid day. Even the 350s arnt immune, is the depot they stable at North of the border equipped for sucking the crap out of them? Complaints about general standard of service and overcrouding are IMO Justified and as an opperater I dont rate TPE 1 bit so agree with whats been said. Agreed the stock they have doesnt help and Id be interested to see what happens if they get summit like loco hauled 442s - maybe things will improve? They could I agree though do with a few staffing changes or at the very least a course in how to smile. No offence to nice TPE staff on here, I know you do exist.

Quite right. I would never consider using TPE for a medium or long distance becasue of the toilet/capacity problems. And for a short journey I can't usually board their trains because they're that full when they arrive at my station. Thankfully I can jump in the car, but I feel sorry for those who have to put up with the service regularly. There was a feature on TPE in a recent supplement in The Times, basically it was their Commercial Director giving himself a slap on the back.... left me feeling quite nauseous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think replacing 185s with 156s will have helped. Although, with 185s carrying many more passengers than they were designed for I imagine the retention toilets probably don't have enough capacity to last all day.

Particularly due to the extremely poor interior layout that hides one the wrong side of First Class so usage of the two will be poorly balanced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The point has already been made that the number of punters using TPE has vastly outstripped expectations

Has it really? Anyone could have told the Government (who are at fault here) that 3-car 185s would be insufficient, and that they should either have been 5-car or gangwayed and normally run in pairs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's also National Express coaches. While for part of the day there is no service NX run southbound services at 08:00 and 08:25 and northbound services at 17:25 and 18:15 for £2.45 each way and a guaranteed seat if you're sold a ticket.

I must admit that the overcrowding on the rails is increasingly tempting me to coach for some journeys. If a coach operator would install wide 2+1 seating and I could (paying extra if necessary) guarantee a seat on the 1 side, with convenient timings (I accept journeys would be longer) I'd be sold.

 

[87015]

Has it really? Anyone could have told the Government (who are at fault here) that 3-car 185s would be insufficient, and that they should either have been 5-car or gangwayed and normally run in pairs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did the DfT write the bids then? Plenty of blame on both sides for the creation of such an inefficient way of operating.

 

[northwichcat]

Did the DfT write the bids then? Plenty of blame on both sides for the creation of such an inefficient way of operating.

The SRA reportedly gave First/Kelios some 'constructive feedback' saying they thought it would work best if the trains ordered were initially 3 carriage trains. Arriva and Connex had proposed 4 car trains so when First/Kelios resubmitted their bid to say 3 car Desiros with the option to lengthen to 4 car, the SRA were over the moon and accepted their bid.

Then at a later date the SRA decided instead of 56 x 185s there would be 51 x 185s and Manchester Airport to Blackpool will be given to TPE as well (which was originally supposed to stay with Northern.) Apparently that was plan B after the SRA plan to cutback the order further resulted in Siemens quoting higher costs per carriage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then at a later date the SRA decided instead of 56 x 185s there would be 51 x 185s and Manchester Airport to Blackpool will be given to TPE as well (which was originally supposed to stay with Northern.)

And then came the Scottish services, which don't fit TPE at all and should have remained with XC with a build of additional units for them (6 to 8-car) or passed to Virgin West Coast with a similar additional build.

 

[yorksrob]

Ventured onto the TPE Manchester -Leeds route yesterday. Dreadfully crowded service so bailed at Stalybridge and got the much calmer Northern stopper.

At Huddersfield, TPE again hideously overcrowded. Again got the Northern stopper. Overall, a much slower, but much more pleasant journey.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The Calder Valley wins for me on that journey now, unless Im going at the same time as there is a £1 Megabus seat and I think that says it all really. Like Jcollins upthread I think the ultimate winner here woant be Arnauld Clark but whichever coach or bus company offers keenly priced turn up and go services with interiors similar to a First Class carradge and a decent journey time. I know that if I were in that industry Id be trying to get a fleat of something like the Plaxton Cheeta out on the core bits with a good number of departures and see where it went after that.

 

[350405]

From my home station's point of view, Bolton, Transpennine has been getting generally worse year on year for the past few years. It started at the December 2013 timetable change I recall.

We had a bi-hourly service to Cumbria at one point, alternating between Windermere and Barrow-in-Furness. We also had Transpennine services to Scotland too, but I do believe they are likely to return in the next few years in a reduced form (possibly pick-up / set down only and a few pass only).

Stock wise, yes Transpennine North West has been stripped of all but a handful of its Class 185s which is a real shame. With the Class 156s there is no catering, no first class, no seat reservations, etc. We have some services which were run with 2 x Class 185s a few years ago now running with 2 x Class 156s. How does that work considering the current passenger growth through the Manchester -> Bolton -> Preston corridor.

This may be in part due to the works carried out and diversions via Wigan N W. 350 are now the primary stock on scotland services and before the Manchester-Preston via Bolton electrification work is complete it will remain that way

 

[Blindtraveler]

Also agree it would have been good to give Manchester Scotland to WC as Voyagers could have continued untill wires were up and then a new load of 9 car pendos could have been used, the additional benifit of this being crouding problems illiminated on trains through Cumbria enabling all but a small number of Birmingham and Euston trains being sped up and only calling at Carlisle and Preston with Lockerbie, Penrith, Oxenholm, Lanca7ter and Wiggan calls being done by the Manchesters

 

[Senex]

Also agree it would have been good to give Manchester Scotland to WC as Voyagers could have continued untill wires were up and then a new load of 9 car pendos could have been used, the additional benifit of this being crouding problems illiminated on trains through Cumbria enabling all but a small number of Birmingham and Euston trains being sped up and only calling at Carlisle and Preston with Lockerbie, Penrith, Oxenholm, Lanca7ter and Wiggan calls being done by the Manchesters

Why would the Manchesters make all the calls? Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh is pretty well the ideal distance for a genuinely fast rail service so why shouldn't it have one -- or at least share the stops with Birmingham and London trains. Manchester (and Liverpool too) are really very ill served by their trains to Scotland and to the North-East -- slow, and poor journey-quality.

 

[Tracked]

Surprised about the punctuality thing, someone I know was saying the other day they're reliably late between SHF and Don ... haven't paid much attention but they were awful on Saturday (train cancelled, no-one bothered to mention this until passengers went to ask why every other train on SHF seemed to be leaving but us), and seem to be either late/cancelled this afternoon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would the Manchesters make all the calls? Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh is pretty well the ideal distance for a genuinely fast rail service so why shouldn't it have one -- or at least share the stops with Birmingham and London trains. Manchester (and Liverpool too) are really very ill served by their trains to Scotland and to the North-East -- slow, and poor journey-quality.

Given the range of journeys people make to access the Cumbrian Coast, the Lakes etc, I see little reason for any service to omit any stop between Preston and Carlisle. There are only 3 of them and it adds little to the journey time, and a consistent timetable reduces confusion.

 

[misterredmist]

It's a poor lot, the trains weren't good when they were introduced - G*d knows what they're like now

I feel sorry for people using those services in the peak hours......It's an out of date set up for a modern , inter-city railway service - the quicker the upgrades, the wires and adequately sized, comfy stock are introduced, the better................

 

[Senex]

It's a poor lot, the trains weren't good when they were introduced - G*d knows what they're like now

I feel sorry for people using those services in the peak hours......It's an out of date set up for a modern , inter-city railway service - the quicker the upgrades, the wires and adequately sized, comfy stock are introduced, the better................

The trouble is that whatever its pretensions to being inter-city and whatever the size of the cities linked justifies, this is merely a semi-fast inter-urban service (what the Germans not so long ago would have called an Eilzug) masquerading as a quality operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And not masquerading very well, either.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The size of the retention tanks is not the problem.

If they are emptied every night they will last all day, even on the busiest services, in my experience.

The problems are:

a) they are not all emptied every night, especially at weekends, as units which stay out at certain locations over night don't get CET treatment.

b) the flush waste pipe is a rubbish design and is terribly easy to block, and even a large "deposit" and a sensible quantity of paper can cause a blockage.

c) the issue in b) is further exasperated as many people seem to think it is perfectly sensible and acceptable to try and flush all sorts of things down the toilet. Tampons, non-flushable face or hand wipes, half the contents of the toilet roll dispenser all at once are regulars, with socks, underpants, nappies, food waste and a whole host of other foreign objects not uncommon.

d) aside from the issues identified above the pipework leaks and makes the cupboards behind the toilet smell, the general cleaning regime is very poor on a daily basis, even on depot, and a unit clean and fresh off depot can still have a foul smelling toilet as the walls, back of the door etc etc are all uncleaned and stained with built up filth which splashes back from the toilet bowl.

e) despite it being a franchise requirement, toilets are not freshened up during all turn rounds during the day, only at one or two locations, so depending on what diagram a unit is on, it can go completely untouched all day long.

 

[BurtonM]

Ventured onto the TPE Manchester -Leeds route yesterday. Dreadfully crowded service so bailed at Stalybridge and got the much calmer Northern stopper.

How long did you wait? Both Northern services are timetabled ~5 minutes before the TPEs (stupid eh). I can understand why you'd do that but it only works if getting off the :46 Northern from Hud to swap for the :50 TPE it's inevitably holding up.