Train driver speed habits

[furnessvale]

Excellent what kind of train were you in ?

Certainly class one loco hauled electric. IIRC class 90.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you recovered more than 5 between each then if it was irrespective of allowances? Unless there were TSRs on you would have got back 3 to Carlisle and 3 to Preston anyway as part of the engineering allowance.

Perhaps I worded things badly. The recovered time was over and above any recovery time available at the time (and it was some years ago so recovery time was probably quite different then)

 

[notadriver]

That explains a lot. I think schedules of the past were considerably more relaxed than they are today for most trains (not the fastest named expresses obviously)

 

[furnessvale]

That explains a lot. I think schedules of the past were considerably more relaxed than they are today for most trains (not the fastest named expresses obviously)

That may be true for expresses, although I haven't bothered checking how much is now down to faster accelerating trains or track improvements, but it is certainly not true of locals in my area where all stations to Manchester is considerably slower than the mid 1980s.

 

[Phil.]

That explains a lot. I think schedules of the past were considerably more relaxed than they are today for most trains (not the fastest named expresses obviously)

Not always if you're talking about B.R. 1970s until finish. The timetable now is heavily padded. Travelling to Cardiff a few weeks ago I was on a train which was 2" down leaving Reading, 3" down at Didcot yet upon arrival at Swindon stood waiting time. An average HST timing for Padington to Reading is now circa 25" - and still they arrive at Reading late yet in 1977 it was 22" and until "they" put those pesky speed limiters on them it was not unknown for a sporting driver to do it in just a shade over 20".
W.T.T.s used to have printed on their covers, "When trains are running late, drivers must endeavour to make up time, with due regard to all speed restrictions and the braking capability of the train".
I don't suppose that it's printed on current ones.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Not always if you're talking about B.R. 1970s until finish. The timetable now is heavily padded. Travelling to Cardiff a few weeks ago I was on a train which was 2" down leaving Reading, 3" down at Didcot yet upon arrival at Swindon stood waiting time. An average HST timing for Padington to Reading is now circa 25" - and still they arrive at Reading late yet in 1977 it was 22" and until "they" put those pesky speed limiters on them it was not unknown for a sporting driver to do it in just a shade over 20".
W.T.T.s used to have printed on their covers, "When trains are running late, drivers must endeavour to make up time, with due regard to all speed restrictions and the braking capability of the train".
I don't suppose that it's printed on current ones.

That last sentence is how we were taught on the MP12 course. Ahhh, those were the more halcyon days of the railway, when it was enjoyable to go to the school learn all there was to know about the stock and you drove all over the place, on lines that you'd never seen or driven on before. Now after too many years it's a bind and a chore.

Where did it all go so badly wrong?

 

[notadriver]

That may be true for expresses, although I haven't bothered checking how much is now down to faster accelerating trains or track improvements, but it is certainly not true of locals in my area where all stations to Manchester is considerably slower than the mid 1980s.

Hmm agreed it has to be said that journey times for stoppers don't seem to have improved (I guess it's not a priority) but instead the frequency has.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not always if you're talking about B.R. 1970s until finish. The timetable now is heavily padded. Travelling to Cardiff a few weeks ago I was on a train which was 2" down leaving Reading, 3" down at Didcot yet upon arrival at Swindon stood waiting time. An average HST timing for Padington to Reading is now circa 25" - and still they arrive at Reading late yet in 1977 it was 22" and until "they" put those pesky speed limiters on them it was not unknown for a sporting driver to do it in just a shade over 20".

W.T.T.s used to have printed on their covers, "When trains are running late, drivers must endeavour to make up time, with due regard to all speed restrictions and the braking capability of the train".

I don't suppose that it's printed on current ones.

Perhaps you'll see those 20 minute timings come back when the class 800s arrive as they'll reach 125 mph far quicker than an HST. The impression I got for other intercity trains was that they weren't timed at line speed over all sections and there was additional recovery time in places.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You reckon. I don't. Especially with the GWR West of England stock being only capable of 110 mph instead of 125.

 

[notadriver]

I thought they could all do 125 mph under the wires?

What was the speed limit when you were doing 2.1 mph over ? I'm guilty of letting 15 mph becoming 16 mph for a few seconds. I need to keep an eye on that.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's possible.

Yes it happens, but it is NOT the driver's decision. The driver will be informed that they are to miss a call.

EDIT: I see how you work with the signallers to provide information. At the end of the day though, the decision to not call is still not down to you though

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I thought they could all do 125 mph under the wires?

What was the speed limit when you were doing 2.1 mph over ? I'm guilty of letting 15 mph becoming 16 mph for a few seconds. I need to keep an eye on that.

62.1 over a 60 on a steep downhill grade.Now I just hold it under the limits instead and in fact you can get away with it on some sections, however on others you have to be right on them to achieve the timings.

As for the GWR West of England stock, it's been found that the engines will only get upto 110, which could be an issue as it seems that those services will be all diesel units, similar to a Voyager.

 

[The Planner]

Professional/Eco/Defensive or however it is catergorised has made a difference in my opinion and I am not questioning the merits or factors behind it. There is definitely some time to be had if a driver could give it the beans a bit more and brake more robustly than what occurs now. TOCs and FOCs won't see the delays behind it though if a SRT suddenly becomes one that is being missed more often than not (which happens a lot now) as it will be put to the timetable.

 

[notadriver]

Very petty of your driver manager unless he's seen evidence of the same from other drivers at that location

Regarding the gwr units - I'm assuming they are all capable of 125 performance under the wires in AC?

 

[ComUtoR]

EDIT: I see how you work with the signallers to provide information. At the end of the day though, the decision to not call is still not down to you though

I see that point. However; the Driver's recommendation becomes a large factor. I have flat out refused when I've been overcrowded so the decision was entirely mine. The same with diversions. I have made the decision sometimes and even once the Signaler said "stop where you want"

Anything I consider unsafe I am well within my rights to refuse. Its actively encouraged in some circumstances. Whats the worst that can happen.

As I said I have also refused a not to stop. Passengers getting sudden diversions has a major impact. Sometimes you have to speak up. I got cancelled in service a few weeks back coming out of Blackfriars. No-one told me and the announcements to the passengers were mixed. I got to Elephant and confusion ensued. Many people want Denmark Hill and a passenger asked me where I was going. I told him that I would absolutely stop at Denmark Hill. It is an interchange station and it is used for the hospital.

Sometimes being asked to run fast you pick up time and can run through stations on time ! That's a phone call to the Signaler

The important this is to communicate whats happening on the ground. A GTR Driver who was passing on a train took the decision to keep a train in service as the relieving Driver was not available. It caused absolute chaos. There was 3 of us available to take the train and Blackfriars tried desperately to keep the unit in service, the Signaler agreed to run it on the booked route and pulled the road. They were announcing that due to lack of Driver the service was cancelled. Station staff, Signaler, Drivers, Control, were basically all contradicting each other. 3 of us were available, and willing, but the decision was still eventually taken to cape it. Disgusting day tbh.


I know there is a lot going on behind the scenes and I'm not trying to be belligerent or think I know better but control are blind to what is happening on the platform. Being professional and working together with the Signaler and control makes for a better passenger experience.

Comments in the crew room about £"$"£%£ Control, Barsteward Signaler ! and numerous expletives born out of frustration can easily be resolved by a simple phone call.

 

[ainsworth74]

As for the GWR West of England stock, it's been found that the engines will only get upto 110, which could be an issue as it seems that those services will be all diesel units, similar to a Voyager.

No they're going to be bi-mode:

The first AT300s are expected to enter service in summer 2018, primarily on the route from London Paddington to Plymouth and Penzance. They will operate under 25 kV 50 Hz electrification as far as Newbury, and on diesel power beyond.

Source

Regarding the gwr units - I'm assuming they are all capable of 125 performance under the wires in AC?

To begin with and they have the potential to go up to 140mph once the infrastructure can cope with it (and I think a few tweaks would be needed on the stock as well).

 

[cambsy]

Cabbed it once on a 47/8 on a non stop Holyhead-Chester relief in mid 80's, we were doing 99-100 mph on Anglesey and 90 mph most of the way from Bangor to Chester, we gained 20 mins or so on schedule, was an exciting and lively run, bit of a nutter driver, let me blow horn, think the ride in the coaches would have been lively too, have had many 135mph to 140 mph runs on east coast in the 90's, timed and logged them, do miss the good old days when drivers could run hard, brake hard and speed when safe, using there skill and judgement, not like today where its eco driving, brake lightly etc.

 

[TDK]

I use the earlier & lighter technique for this time of year, I find it most conducive to handling and not having any unwanted chats in the office.

If it don't slip in step 2 it aint gonna slip in step 1

 

[HarleyDavidson]

But our sanding systems only activate in step 2 or above or 50% or above on 444/450 fleets.

Although you do have the option to manually override it with a button.

 

[ainsworth74]

How effective is sand helping to increase grip/traction? I've always wondered...

 

[furnessvale]

But our sanding systems only activate in step 2 or above or 50% or above on 444/450 fleets.

Although you do have the option to manually override it with a button.

Sanders? Those hankering for the "good old days" of BR would do well to remember that, in the north west at least, sanders were seen by the fitters as a luxury not worth maintaining.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

No they're going to be bi-mode:



Source



To begin with and they have the potential to go up to 140mph once the infrastructure can cope with it (and I think a few tweaks would be needed on the stock as well).

The problem they have and will have is that the wires are running very late and that article is out of date too. They've found that under diesel power these trains will not be able to reach 125 mph, electrically powered they should do, however they are looking at increasing the number of diesel engines being fitted to the whole of the GWR fleet, because of the severe delays in the electrification project.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How effective is sand helping to increase grip/traction? I've always wondered...

It's pretty good, the 444/450s are very economic with the sand and in conjunction with their good traction packages they make life relatively easy, braking can be a tad hair raising, but you have to have confidence in it and it will be fine, but again the best way is to brake earlier and lighter.

The 455/456 are OK, with them using the old fashioned hand notching techniques, I have said about elsewhere helps and if you can apply sand and notch at the same time you should be able to get under way. Braking on them is OK, but not as good as the Desiro fleets which have better technology, you need to think earlier & lighter and monitor it carefully, not had any problems with slippery conditions so far this year as I've been taking it steady and I just pop in a delay sheet should the need arise.

 

[notadriver]

Cabbed it once on a 47/8 on a non stop Holyhead-Chester relief in mid 80's, we were doing 99-100 mph on Anglesey and 90 mph most of the way from Bangor to Chester, we gained 20 mins or so on schedule, was an exciting and lively run, bit of a nutter driver, let me blow horn, think the ride in the coaches would have been lively too, have had many 135mph to 140 mph runs on east coast in the 90's, timed and logged them, do miss the good old days when drivers could run hard, brake hard and speed when safe, using there skill and judgement, not like today where its eco driving, brake lightly etc.

In my current role we haven't yet been hit hard with an Eco-driving policy and, anyway we are more often than not running late so driving is very much using skill and judgement in my opinion. Thinking about speeding - I don't think there really is any need to. Modern traction is faster than its predecessors. For example on one section with 90 limit, contemporary slam door stuck will be lucky to reach 85 mph whereas a modern Electrostar will have been doing 90 for many miles prior.

 

[D1009]

The problem they have and will have is that the wires are running very late and that article is out of date too. They've found that under diesel power these trains will not be able to reach 125 mph, electrically powered they should do, however they are looking at increasing the number of diesel engines being fitted to the whole of the GWR fleet, because of the severe delays in the electrification project.

If you are discussing the AT300s, they are specifically for the West of England route where the line speed west of Newbury does not exceed 110 mph.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If yogu are discussing the AT300s, they are specifically for the West of England route where the line speed west of Newbury does not exceed 110 mph.

Ah, but they'll still need the top end speed to keep out of the way of their electric brethren, which will be able to achieve 125 with arrogant ease, between Bristol & London or Reading and London.

Also the folk on GWR have doubts that they'll be able to achieve this on the B&H either due to the gradients on it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah, but they'll still need the top end speed to keep out of the way of their electric brethren, which will be able to achieve 125 with arrogant ease, between Bristol & London or Reading and London.

But so will they as they're bi-mode...

 

[driver_m]

Cabbed it once on a 47/8 on a non stop Holyhead-Chester relief in mid 80's, we were doing 99-100 mph on Anglesey and 90 mph most of the way from Bangor to Chester, we gained 20 mins or so on schedule, was an exciting and lively run, bit of a nutter driver, let me blow horn, think the ride in the coaches would have been lively too, have had many 135mph to 140 mph runs on east coast in the 90's, timed and logged them, do miss the good old days when drivers could run hard, brake hard and speed when safe, using there skill and judgement, not like today where its eco driving, brake lightly etc.

A lot of the North Wales line should be 100mph by now. Some of the 75 sections are ridiculously slow. Heard many a tale of incredible timing recoveries on the Island. Though in these days of Black boxes that would likely be the quickest way to earn yourself a redeployment to shuffling papers or a p45! Wonderful piece of railway mainly because you have to drive it properly using gradients to control your train with no speed set control over here like a pendo has. Proper signalling and beautiful to boot.

 

[Kentish Paul]

They've found that under diesel power these trains will not be able to reach 125 mph, electrically powered they should do,

No, they will do.

 

[Phil.]

Cabbed it once on a 47/8 on a non stop Holyhead-Chester relief in mid 80's, we were doing 99-100 mph on Anglesey and 90 mph most of the way from Bangor to Chester, we gained 20 mins or so on schedule, was an exciting and lively run, bit of a nutter driver, let me blow horn, think the ride in the coaches would have been lively too, have had many 135mph to 140 mph runs on east coast in the 90's, timed and logged them, do miss the good old days when drivers could run hard, brake hard and speed when safe, using there skill and judgement, not like today where its eco driving, brake lightly etc.

Ah but that was when Driver Managers - or Traction Inspectors as they were called then - were ex drivers themselves and knew what was sensible and what was lunacy. Drivers themselves had served a fireman/second man "apprenticeship" and were experienced and knowledgeable men. A little while ago I listened to a too loud conversation between two Southern managers on a train from East Croydon to Redhill. Worryingly, the younger of the two turned out to be a Driver Manager who's previous job had been in a furniture shop. He wasn't qualified to drive trains.
How can these people be in charge of, lead and advise train drivers?
What would they say to Bill Hoole coming down Stoke bank in 1959 at 112 mph.

http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/23-05-1959.html

 

[notadriver]

The new type only deals with sickness and attendance etc matters. Not qualified to deal with anything to do with train driver competence and paid a lot less than a driver. Not a proper driver manager in the usual sense - may not even be permitted to ride in the cab (!)

 

[Minilad]

So, basically, not a driver manager then just an admin clerk

 

[ainsworth74]

It's pretty good, the 444/450s are very economic with the sand and in conjunction with their good traction packages they make life relatively easy, braking can be a tad hair raising, but you have to have confidence in it and it will be fine, but again the best way is to brake earlier and lighter.

The 455/456 are OK, with them using the old fashioned hand notching techniques, I have said about elsewhere helps and if you can apply sand and notch at the same time you should be able to get under way. Braking on them is OK, but not as good as the Desiro fleets which have better technology, you need to think earlier & lighter and monitor it carefully, not had any problems with slippery conditions so far this year as I've been taking it steady and I just pop in a delay sheet should the need arise.

Interesting thanks