Halton Curve upgrade is on

[HowardGWR]

On paper you are correct. However the building of a station in the Beechwood area of Runcorn plus car park facilities would open up a vast new market.

I am a stranger to that area, but would not a 'Widnes South' or Hale station on the north bank and perhaps another west of there be indicated as likely to attract traffic?

 

[Railman]

That is a good point about the the existing Halton and Merseyside local boundaries merging. The increase in "Merseytravel" boundary to enable cheap tickets Helsby Frodsham and Runcorn could be real game changer with respect to winning new patronage.
Cheap/free parking and Cheap rail travel is a the way to go to get people out of cars. I don't think the effect of these ideas has been fully considered.
It may be a 153 on the first week but have 150 ready to couple up on the second.

 

[8A Rail]

I am a stranger to that area, but would not a 'Widnes South' or Hale station on the north bank and perhaps another west of there be indicated as likely to attract traffic?

There was a station on the north side of the Mersey and it was called "Ditton Junction" and had 4 platforms (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/ditton_junction/). The station was finally closed in May 1994 with the buildings and platform (edges) all disappearing. There has been an occasional call for it to be reopened but fallen on death ears although population has increased in the area. Personally in the light of the new bridge tolls being introduced in a couple of years time when the new bridge is opened, there could be scope for a decent park and ride facility.

There was a station called Halebank (off Lower Road) which has nowt to do with Hale Village as that is 2/3 miles away, but that closed in 1958 and there is no reason for it to reopen as there is still now't there. (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halebank/)

For further information, check out the 8d Association website : http://www.8dassociation.btck.co.uk

 

[6Gman]

Why the pessimism? A direct link between Wrexham/Llandudno and Liverpool is a key aspiration for both sides, would be profitable, and is the whole premise around this project. It doesn't require any additional work other than progressing the business case and getting the money in place, there are no engineering works involved.

The real benefit will come when it is extended.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed that running 2 trains per hour along the North Wales coast required a subsidy. Find it hard to believe that a third service would be profitable.

 

[edwin_m]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed that running 2 trains per hour along the North Wales coast required a subsidy. Find it hard to believe that a third service would be profitable.

There's a big difference between having a good BCR and being profitable. BCR takes account of the social benefits of a proposal and is used to determine whether it is worth a public body providing extra subsidy. Profit is purely a financial calculation, and if it was actually profitable an operator would probably have started running it as a commercial venture.

This may have a good BCR but I very much doubt it will be profitable. "Regional" services virtually never are.

 

[Camden]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed that running 2 trains per hour along the North Wales coast required a subsidy. Find it hard to believe that a third service would be profitable.

As implied when I used the term "extended", I wasn't referring to three trains an hour. It's not even certain there would be two.

However, I have heard people talk about genuine transformation of these types of journeys. There is certainly reason to believe that low frequency services can negatively impact on passenger numbers while high frequency services can do the opposite and create a much high level of use via mass switching to train and generating economic activity. To that end, it would be easy to understand any long term aspirations for much higher frequencies.

 

[HowardGWR]

There was a station on the north side of the Mersey and it was called "Ditton Junction" and had 4 platforms (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/ditton_junction/). The station was finally closed in May 1994 with the buildings and platform (edges) all disappearing. There has been an occasional call for it to be reopened but fallen on death ears although population has increased in the area. Personally in the light of the new bridge tolls being introduced in a couple of years time when the new bridge is opened, there could be scope for a decent park and ride facility.

There was a station called Halebank (off Lower Road) which has nowt to do with Hale Village as that is 2/3 miles away, but that closed in 1958 and there is no reason for it to reopen as there is still now't there. (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halebank/)

For further information, check out the 8d Association website : http://www.8dassociation.btck.co.uk

Thanks, that looks a very interesting web site. The present Widnes station is a good way out north of the town and I would have thought a southern station with good parking facilities would do brisk business and not just around from the Halton curve but also to Manchester or Liverpool. But I am not local,as I admitted.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks, that looks a very interesting web site. The present Widnes station is a good way out north of the town and I would have thought a southern station with good parking facilities would do brisk business and not just around from the Halton curve but also to Manchester or Liverpool. But I am not local,as I admitted.

The old port town of Widnes has pretty much migrated northwards in recent times, leaving mostly industry and distribution centres near the Runcorn-Liverpool line.
The present station called Widnes on the CLC route used to be in the separate village of Farnworth, now absorbed by greater Widnes.
West of Widnes, the CLC line passes only a mile or so north of the LNW main line, in more promising commuter country.

 

[HowardGWR]

Ah, I see, it would be a sort of St Andrews Road, Bristol (30 odd pax per day who work at the docks, there, I suspect). My knowledge of Widnes came exclusively from the late Eddie Waring, usually on a wet muddy Saturday afternoon.

 

[6Gman]

As implied when I used the term "extended", I wasn't referring to three trains an hour. It's not even certain there would be two.

I may not have made myself entirely clear. I was referring to the existing Coast services (basically Llandudno-Manchester and Holyhead-Shresbury- Brum/Cdf). A third service (to Liverpool) would be the third train ph.

 

[Wavertreelad]

If the proposed Alstom transport and energy centre is given the approval in February, it appears to be almost adjacent to Ditton Station and could provide a boost for any plans to reopen it, especially if Merseytravel were to be involved.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/12/07/alstom-invites-bids-for-40m-widnes-train-workshop/

 

[8A Rail]

If the proposed Alstom transport and energy centre is given the approval in February, it appears to be almost adjacent to Ditton Station and could provide a boost for any plans to reopen it, especially if Merseytravel were to be involved.
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/12/07/alstom-invites-bids-for-40m-widnes-train-workshop/

See this thread about the Alstom proposal - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=123755

 

[frodshamfella]

On paper you are correct. However the building of a station in the Beechwood area of Runcorn plus car park facilities would open up a vast new market.

Yes I heard of a possibility of a station serving Beechwood, a lot of housing in that area with no nearby local station, so should be attractive to locals.

 

[childwallblues]

If the proposed Alstom transport and energy centre is given the approval in February, it appears to be almost adjacent to Ditton Station and could provide a boost for any plans to reopen it, especially if Merseytravel were to be involved.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/12/07/alstom-invites-bids-for-40m-widnes-train-workshop/

Alsthom is quite likely to employ high paid engineers in their proposed facility who are likely to drive to work. A new road has already been put in to the the site from the Knowsley Expressway which will connect it to the M57 and M62.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Alsthom is quite likely to employ high paid engineers in their proposed facility who are likely to drive to work. A new road has already been put in to the the site from the Knowsley Expressway which will connect it to the M57 and M62.

True but with any investment of this nature, assuming it goes ahead, it could attract other support industries as in the longer term residential development in the area. Re-opening the station would also help regenerate the area for the existing residents in the area and are perhaps not best served with public transport.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes I heard of a possibility of a station serving Beechwood, a lot of housing in that area with no nearby local station, so should be attractive to locals.

Runcorn (for Liverpool and Crewe/London) and Runcorn East (for Chester, Warrington and Manchester) stations are both about a mile from Beechwood.
I don't understand the need for a new station.
My understanding was that studies had confirmed a station was not viable (except possibly as a terminus if electric trains from Liverpool had to reverse on the curve).

 

[frodshamfella]

Runcorn (for Liverpool and Crewe/London) and Runcorn East (for Chester, Warrington and Manchester) stations are both about a mile from Beechwood.
I don't understand the need for a new station.
My understanding was that studies had confirmed a station was not viable (except possibly as a terminus if electric trains from Liverpool had to reverse on the curve).

But the road network is famously complexed in Runcorn so what appears close in Runcorn isn't, its one of those towns you can get lost in v easily !

 

[HowardGWR]

But the road network is famously complexed in Runcorn so what appears close in Runcorn isn't, its one of those towns you can get lost in v easily !

Yes, I have been eye balling the area since this discussion started and Runcorn seems to me to be a late twentieth century car-mad urban nightmare which could be in California with that maze of roads near its station. The Railway Hotel is marooned in the middle of the tarmac spaghetti. The bus pax - well, they are just deposited on the edge of a dual carriageway. They must get soaked when it rains, crossing to the station.

 

[urbophile]

Picking up on a couple of points made above.
[1] Yes, comparatively few people appear to be using South Parkway as a gateway to John Lennon airport. Though official statistics might be surprising. People do, however, and although the dedicated bus link is no more, there are several normal routes that link the two, particularly the 86A. There are usually at least one or two people making the connection whenever I use that route.
[2] I can't see the point of re-opening the Halton curve simply to provide an additional service between Liverpool and Chester. The line should be inaugurated with a direct link from Lime Street to North Wales. After all, Liverpool is the de facto capital of North Wales and yet transport links are lamentable. The Merseyrail 'metro' service is quite unsuited to a through journey (especially for people with luggage). The road link is no better either; a single carriageway from the main Manchester road. A through and comparatively fast rail connection would be well used, with the bonus of Frodsham and Helsby being more accessible for commuters.

 

[6Gman]

[2] I can't see the point of re-opening the Halton curve simply to provide an additional service between Liverpool and Chester. The line should be inaugurated with a direct link from Lime Street to North Wales. After all, Liverpool is the de facto capital of North Wales and yet transport links are lamentable. The Merseyrail 'metro' service is quite unsuited to a through journey (especially for people with luggage). The road link is no better either; a single carriageway from the main Manchester road. A through and comparatively fast rail connection would be well used, with the bonus of Frodsham and Helsby being more accessible for commuters.

But is that an additional service along the coast (requiring additional subsidy) or one replacing an existing service? If the latter, which of the existing services do you drop?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

After all, Liverpool is the de facto capital of North Wales

That might have been true one day, but I don't think so today.
Chester provides most services to North Wales (property, legal, utilities, distribution etc).
After Chester I'd say Manchester is now the next draw.
There is indeed a strong link between Flintshire/Wrexham and the Wirral and Liverpool, but I'm not sure it applies further west.
It's a long time since the St Tudno did day trips from Liverpool to Llandudno and Menai Bridge (though not forgotten!).
One remaining link, at least for the time being, is the NHS.
It is quite common for North Wales folk to be referred to Liverpool hospitals for specialist treatment (to the great annoyance of Cardiff Bay).
However the only person I know who makes the journey by train to the complex of hospitals at Broad Green is ... me!

 

[craigybagel]

But is that an additional service along the coast (requiring additional subsidy) or one replacing an existing service? If the latter, which of the existing services do you drop?

Easy, the Cardiff. Hourly service from Liverpool to Chester, then alternating between going to Cardiff and gong to Holyhead, giving both the coast and Wrexham a 2 hourly through service to Liverpool, which is much more useful to the former than a direct Cardiff service.

Unfortunately, there's not a hope of it happening.

 

[Francis]

What would really link Liverpool to North Wales would be a Dee barrage with both railway and dual carriageway running across it. It's been mooted many times, as have barrages across the Mersey, Severn and Morecambe Bay. However you run into severe opposition from Estuary Conservation Groups, whose opposition will only make us ever more reliant upon nice Mr Putin's gas supplies, or Chinese funded nuclear power stations, as N Sea gas runs out.

Liverpool is easily visible from the Flintshire A55 around Halkyn. Liverpool to Talacre is about 25 km = 16 miles as the crow flies. A Dee Barrage carrying direct transport links would certainly help the regeneration of Liverpool, which like Hull, finds itself rather out on a limb compared to Manchester. A barrage would probably generate a lot more electricity than all those hundreds of wind turbines standing out in Liverpool Bay, and more regularly.

Train times of 30 mins Liverpool to Rhyl. A hundred thousand Scousers more settling in Denbighshire and Flint? One can but dream, because we don't do big infrastructure programmes in the UK any more, do we (HS2 excepted)?

 

[Bevan Price]

If there ever was to be a Dee barrage, in all probability it would be "road only". However, with the estuaries being home to vast quantities of wildlife, I would be surprised if it is ever built (a road tunnel might be more likely).

As for the Halton curve - I suspect that any initial service will be Liverpool - Chester or Wrexham, maybe with some journeys combined with the existing Arriva (Wales) Chester / Shrewsbury / Birmingham services - always assuming that some logical adjustments to franchise boundaries can be agreed by DfT. If it becomes just a part of "Northern", it will just be a Liverpool / Chester shuttle.

 

[8A Rail]

.................. Liverpool is easily visible from the Flintshire A55 around Halkyn. Liverpool to Talacre is about 25 km = 16 miles as the crow flies. A Dee Barrage carrying direct transport links would certainly help the regeneration of Liverpool, which like Hull, finds itself rather out on a limb compared to Manchester. A barrage would probably generate a lot more electricity than all those hundreds of wind turbines standing out in Liverpool Bay, and more regularly. ................

"would help the regeneration of Liverpool"? Where have you been for the last 10 years or so? There has been plenty going on in the city in regards to new builds, new facilities etc, the city has not stood still you know. A lot has happened and it is a fantastic tourist destination in its own right - probably more to offer than Manchester. However, I accept Manchester has had additional benefits but that is expected but Liverpool is definitely not out on a limb as you put it.

As for a Dee Barrage, there has been mentioned a Mersey Barrage too but I dont think enough information is known on what the actual benefits or changes to the environment in having them. Likewise, given the present circumstances, if they include road and / or rail links - guess what, you likely to be charged for the privilege of crossing them by way of additional tolls too!

I dont have problems with the wind turbines as such but agree there are probably better ways in generating electricity for the masses. But the real issue with wind turbines, is the actual cost involved in building them. If it possible to bring those costs down significantly, then they could be more cost effective but I doubt that will happen.

Anyway, let us get back on topic - Halton Curve upgrade ..................

 

[Bevan Price]

The old port town of Widnes has pretty much migrated northwards in recent times, leaving mostly industry and distribution centres near the Runcorn-Liverpool line.
The present station called Widnes on the CLC route used to be in the separate village of Farnworth, now absorbed by greater Widnes.
West of Widnes, the CLC line passes only a mile or so north of the LNW main line, in more promising commuter country.

There used to be several stations near the "traditional" town centre of Widnes, but all had poor services, and have been closed for over 50 years. None would have been particularly convenient for the current "main shopping areas" of Widnes (The market / Green Oaks areas), nor for the main residential areas to the north & west of the "town centre".

The old stations were:
Widnes Central & Tanhouse Lane, on a loop off the CLC line between Liverpool & Manchester.
Widnes South, on the Ditton Jn - Warrington - Lymm - Timperley/Manchester line.
Ann Street Halt, on the Widnes - St. Helens line.

Ditton Jn lost much of its utility on closure of the line through Widnes South, although as 8ARail points out, there has been some population growth in the area.

For Widnes passengers heading south, Runcorn station was probably more convenient than Ditton Jn, having better bus services from several suburbs of Widnes, and better car park availability (albeit at Virgin's high parking charges.)

 

[childwallblues]

True but with any investment of this nature, assuming it goes ahead, it could attract other support industries as in the longer term residential development in the area. Re-opening the station would also help regenerate the area for the existing residents in the area and are perhaps not best served with public transport.

That may be but the entrance to the proposed development could be a long way along Hale Road and Halebank Road from the re-opened station.

 

[frodshamfella]

Yes, I have been eye balling the area since this discussion started and Runcorn seems to me to be a late twentieth century car-mad urban nightmare which could be in California with that maze of roads near its station. The Railway Hotel is marooned in the middle of the tarmac spaghetti. The bus pax - well, they are just deposited on the edge of a dual carriageway. They must get soaked when it rains, crossing to the station.

It's terrible if you should get lost there, has happened to me !

 

[Silversmith]

Yes, I have been eye balling the area since this discussion started and Runcorn seems to me to be a late twentieth century car-mad urban nightmare which could be in California with that maze of roads near its station.

Runcorn is one of the 1960's New Towns with purpose-built expressways and busways, and much nasty concrete architecture typical of the period. Beyond being a commuter hub with access to the WCML and motorway links to Liverpool/Manchester etc., the town has very little to commend it.

Runcorn (for Liverpool and Crewe/London) and Runcorn East (for Chester, Warrington and Manchester) stations are both about a mile from Beechwood.
I don't understand the need for a new station.

A revised bus shuttle service that serves Beechwood from Runcorn railway station would be a better solution.

 

[childwallblues]

Runcorn is one of the 1960's New Towns with purpose-built expressways and busways, and much nasty concrete architecture typical of the period. Beyond being a commuter hub with access to the WCML and motorway links to Liverpool/Manchester etc., the town has very little to commend it.



A revised bus shuttle service that serves Beechwood from Runcorn railway station would be a better solution.

I do not think many would share your opinion.