Southeastern Dispatch Procedure

[74A]

Same in the UK-the guard must check for a clear signal before giving the RA. Guards can be taken off track pending investigation for trying to give the RA on a red-as can platform staff.

What I meant in my post is they actually operate the RA INDICATOR attached to the signal on the platform. So in this country it would be like platform staff giving the RA after CD. I don't think any guards do that in this country but I could be wrong.

By doing it this was it would not be possible for the guard to give the RA against a red in the same way platform staff using CD RA could not. The system would not allow it as the signal is red. So you can't have a SASPAD

 

[A-driver]

What I meant in my post is they actually operate the RA INDICATOR attached to the signal on the platform. So in this country it would be like platform staff giving the RA after CD. I don't think any guards do that in this country but I could be wrong.

By doing it this was it would not be possible for the guard to give the RA against a red in the same way platform staff using CD RA could not. The system would not allow it as the signal is red. So you can't have a SASPAD

Ah, I see. In the uk guards tend to use bells with only platform staff using RA indicators.

 

[ComUtoR]

The system would not allow it as the signal is red. So you can't have a SASPAD

You can still have a SAS SPAD with CD/RA

 

[74A]

You can still have a SAS SPAD with CD/RA

How can you ? its linked to the signal and won't work if the signal is red.

 

[A-driver]

You can still have a SAS SPAD with CD/RA

How can you ? its linked to the signal and won't work if the signal is red.

CD can be given on a red but RA is linked to the aspect and can be given on a red.

Of course if we are taking a green flag RA then you can certainly get that on a red-same with a guard ringing bells.

 

[sarahj]

It once happened at a station, on a loop platform,that the platform staff tried to give the guard the tip to go, but the signal was red, so the guard refused to close the doors. P Staff tried again, and the guard trying to show that they would not go, held their hands down. P staff now very miffed so they then went to push the CD button, as he was doing this a train flew past on the main line doing about 60. P staff was never seen again.

 

[ComUtoR]

How can you ? its linked to the signal and won't work if the signal is red.

All that is doing is preventing the RA from being given. It is NOT preventing the train from moving. The only thing from preventing the train from moving is the Driver. Once you have interlock you can proceed.

In your example the RA cannot be given (I think A-Driver missed a 't) but it's been known for signals to be misread and the Driver taken power down a platform and past the starter signal.

SPAD's are very complicated.

 

[craigybagel]

How about the one design of rolling stock where the DSD and guard buzzers make almost identical noises - this has resulted in several guards being left behind when for whatever reason they've been on the platform but the doors aren't released.....

 

[Bromley boy]

All that is doing is preventing the RA from being given. It is NOT preventing the train from moving. The only thing from preventing the train from moving is the Driver. Once you have interlock you can proceed.

In your example the RA cannot be given (I think A-Driver missed a 't) but it's been known for signals to be misread and the Driver taken power down a platform and past the starter signal.

SPAD's are very complicated.

A quirk I've been told about is that if the signal if "off" it's possible for the platform staff to give RA before CD in error. Due to the interlocking the RA cannot be cancelled until the signal goes back to red.

The train will then have to remain on the platform until bats and flags are produced as the driver cannot be sure he is safe to proceed using CD/RA procedure.

 

[ComUtoR]

A quirk I've been told about is that if the signal if "off" it's possible for the platform staff to give RA before CD in error. Due to the interlocking the RA cannot be cancelled until the signal goes back to red.

That I'm not 100% sure of because you don't always need the CD

 

[Bromley boy]

That I'm not 100% sure of because you don't always need the CD

The thinking behind it explained to me was that if RA is already illuminated it ceases to serve any purpose. The driver then has no way of being notified of "platform duties complete, ready to start" by the platform staff.

If DOO at a CD/RA station you would then have no CD/RA indicators, no monitors, no guard and "the no look back" policy means the only option to dispatch would be bat and flag.

 

[Carlisle]

I think Neil's point is that it is very inconsistent what is considered safe where and why. Why is it considered safe for the driver to open and close the doors at one end of the route but not the other? Why do the Thameslink trains and some of the other Southeastern and Southern trains on the same lines not need a guard at all? Either money is being wasted on unnecessary and time-consuming safety procedures in some places, or safety is being put at risk by cost-cutting in others.

In a TOCs ideal world they'd probably have gone over to driver operated doors on the whole of Southeastern quite some time ago , but there's been a reluctance to take on the unions etc over this so in reality you have the DOO area around greater London introduced under BR in the early 90s that's never been extended since, being mainly responsible for this mix of procedures

 

[ComUtoR]

In a TOCs ideal world they'd probably have gone over to driver operated doors on the whole of Southeastern quite some time ago , but there's been a reluctance to take on the unions etc over this so in reality you have the DOO area around greater London introduced under BR in the early 90s that's never been extended since, being mainly responsible for this mix of procedures

Not forgetting the infrastructure cost. The TOC can't suddenly decide DOO dispatch unless there is infrastructure in place or an agreement to install it. You could switch the whole lot over to Bat and Flag but that would require staff increases and additional training etc.

 

[MrB]

Is the bat and flag procedure carried out at Charing Cross and Cannon St or are these stations DOO?

 

[ComUtoR]

They are CD/RA

 

[A-driver]

In a TOCs ideal world they'd probably have gone over to driver operated doors on the whole of Southeastern quite some time ago , but there's been a reluctance to take on the unions etc over this so in reality you have the DOO area around greater London introduced under BR in the early 90s that's never been extended since, being mainly responsible for this mix of procedures

Lol. It's nothing to do with the unions-they havnt even considered it because of the cost for starters.

 

[tsr]

CD can be given on a red but RA is linked to the aspect and can be given on a red.

Of course if we are taking a green flag RA then you can certainly get that on a red-same with a guard ringing bells.

You can also get an RA on a wrong route / shunt signal indication on some signals, which again is a bit of a problem if that's not what's wanted.

For those reading this who may be wondering a bit, here's an example: the Off indicator and, during dispatch, the RA at West Croydon Platform 4 can be illuminated in conjunction with the "two whites" (proceed aspects) on the GPL to allow the train to move into the turnback siding. This means the route is set for the siding and the train must be out of service to continue. However, this is no good in passenger service, so it's something that the many drivers who sign the route must be aware of when receiving the RA from platform staff or (in very rare circumstances) relayed from the guard. Guards cannot necessarily see whether the route is set for the sidings from their dispatch position.

(Further note: Selhurst and Horsham guards sign the Up/Down Wallington route via West Croydon as a diversion, but will usually only dispatch along that route during route learning, in rare emergencies, or when diverted if Cottage Bridge and the adjacent Fast lines are closed overnight between Selhurst & East Croydon. Because the 455s used for many services on this route sometimes have dodgy bell controls, the green flag or light may be used by the guard to instruct the platform staff to give the driver the RA. Yes, it gets complicated...)

 

[Carlisle]

Lol. It's nothing to do with the unions-they havnt even considered it because of the cost for starters.

Ok I appreciate your view but if that's the case how come the far more cash strapped BR managed to convert many more miles to DOO 10-20 years previously

 

[Mintona]

I'm sure Southeastern have mainline trains that run without a guard in the London area. We used to have a job where we picked up a guard at Swanley on the first Victoria - Ashford service of the morning, and also dropped one off at St Mary Cray on a late Sunday night job so they could catch the last one back to Ashford.

 

[JackTheLad]

Waterloo East platforms A & D are DOO despatch... and platforms B/C have platform staff and are CD/RA despatch.

St Mary Cray is bat and flag and still have platform staff which is unusual in the fact that it's a zone 6 station in the Greater London metro area, it only has 4 trains per hour in each direction (2 of which are Thameslink driver only) and it isn't a main interchange station like Orpington or Bromley South.

 

[A-driver]

Ok I appreciate your view but if that's the case how come the far more cash strapped BR managed to convert many more miles to DOO 10-20 years previously

Far cheaper then. Put a mirror up or tell the driver to stock head out window. Job done.

Neither mirrors or look back now meet current standards so neither would be allowed meaning platform CCTV of a particular standard or in cab CCTV is the only option (or platform staff).

 

[Antman]

Waterloo East platforms A & D are DOO despatch... and platforms B/C have platform staff and are CD/RA despatch.

St Mary Cray is bat and flag and still have platform staff which is unusual in the fact that it's a zone 6 station in the Greater London metro area, it only has 4 trains per hour in each direction (2 of which are Thameslink driver only) and it isn't a main interchange station like Orpington or Bromley South.

Yes St Mary Cray is a bit of an odd one and as a result is staffed throughout operating hours where as stations either side, Bickley and Swanley, are unstaffed in the evening. St Mary Cray also has a less than ideal service pattern with trains to Central London at 13,21,22 and 52 past the hour off peak.

On an Ashford to Victoria service the guard has nothing to do after Borough Green or Kemsing if the train stops there, some will walk through the train checking tickets but some just stay in the back cab.

 

[MrB]

On an Ashford to Victoria service the guard has nothing to do after Borough Green or Kemsing if the train stops there, some will walk through the train checking tickets but some just stay in the back cab.

If a guard is only going to stay in the back cab, without wishing to antagonise anyone, wouldn't it be more efficient if they left the train?

 

[ComUtoR]

If a guard is only going to stay in the back cab, without wishing to antagonise anyone, wouldn't it be more efficient if they left the train?

Its been tried and the answer is pretty much no.

 

[JackTheLad]

Yes St Mary Cray is a bit of an odd one and as a result is staffed throughout operating hours where as stations either side, Bickley and Swanley, are unstaffed in the evening. St Mary Cray also has a less than ideal service pattern with trains to Central London at 13,21,22 and 52 past the hour off peak.

On an Ashford to Victoria service the guard has nothing to do after Borough Green or Kemsing if the train stops there, some will walk through the train checking tickets but some just stay in the back cab.

I wonder why they never installed the DOO monitors at St Mary Cray. Maybe it was to do with the slam door stock being used right up til 2005. Either way it must be cheaper for Southeastern to install them rather than paying for 3 members of platform staff on duty at any one time from 0445 til 0135!

 

[ComUtoR]

Either way it must be cheaper for Southeastern to install them rather than paying for 3 members of platform staff on duty at any one time from 0445 til 0135!

Passengers want platform staff. I wouldn't support removal of staff. Even then I believe that DOO stations are still manned. Why not keep them on the platform dealing with the trains ?

Oh and I believe its Network Rail who would need to stump up the cash and maintenance to install DOO monitors not the TOC's

 

[Antman]

Passengers want platform staff. I wouldn't support removal of staff. Even then I believe that DOO stations are still manned. Why not keep them on the platform dealing with the trains ?

Oh and I believe its Network Rail who would need to stump up the cash and maintenance to install DOO monitors not the TOC's

Most South Eastern stations are unstaffed in the evening, it's just accepted as the norm.

If NR did pay for DOO equipment at St Mary Cray presumably they would recoupe the money by increasing charges to Southeastern and Thameslink? Or maybe the 4tph that stop at St Mary Cray off peak is below the threshold for DOO equipment. Swanley only has 5tph and that has DOO equipment.

 

[ComUtoR]

Most South Eastern stations are unstaffed in the evening, it's just accepted as the norm.

And how any people like the idea of unstaffed stations, especially late at night. What time would you cut of St Mary Cray ? If there is already station staff during the day then why can't they do dispatch ? Would NR install DOO monitors just for the unstaffed times ?

If NR did pay for DOO equipment at St Mary Cray presumably they would recoupe the money by increasing charges to Southeastern and Thameslink?

So that puts ticket prices up.

You would also need to add it to the long list of upgrades. Can they justify the cost ? Would it be priority or would other projects come first ?

 

[Antman]

And how any people like the idea of unstaffed stations, especially late at night. What time would you cut of St Mary Cray ? If there is already station staff during the day then why can't they do dispatch ? Would NR install DOO monitors just for the unstaffed times ?



So that puts ticket prices up.

You would also need to add it to the long list of upgrades. Can they justify the cost ? Would it be priority or would other projects come first ?

Why would it put ticket prices up? Southeastern would obviously save on staffing costs.

I'm sure users of St Mary Cray would rather it was staffed but the same would be said about any other station.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why would it put ticket prices up? Southeastern would obviously save on staffing costs.

Because SE would pass the cost to the passenger. The passenger always pays in the end. SE wouldn't even specifically save on staff costs either and neither would it be a direct swap of costs. Its not a simple as Cost A Vs Cost B

I'm sure users of St Mary Cray would rather it was staffed but the same would be said about any other station.

So they should just lie down and accept that ? Here is me thinking of the passenger for a change. We shouldn't be taking staff off stations. If anything there is a move towards an increase in staff visibility at the extreme ends of the clock.