Charter Sleepers

[First class]

Does anyone know if any companies allow you to charter sleeper stock, and if so, does anyone know of any that have ran in the past?

I think Penzance to Wick by sleeper would be quite nice, especially with some 37s attached. Should be two days worth of travel there, especially if you chose a route that is quite scenic where you can stop off.

 

[rail-britain]

The InterCity Charter Train Unit used to have an entire allocation of Mark 3a sleepers, somewhere between eight and twelve vehicles, and they were utilised such that they could operate two trains with sleepers or one entire train
Passengers boarded, typically at London Kings Cross, at night and slept
They were awoken for breakfast and spent the rest of the day in the Mark 1 First Class coaches
The next night was spent in the sleepers again, either arriving the next day at another location or back in London

The unit was sold to Waterman Railways on privitisation
Looks like only about four vehicles have survived or they have been sold to FGW or FSR
The main problems are the costs, it is cheaper to run a train of day coaches and have the passengers stay in hotels along the route

 

[support-uk-rail]

That'd be awesome. We should inform some railtour company about the idea and hold a railforums.org.uk giant sleeper bash.

 

[rail-britain]

You really wouldn't want to be in a sleeper throughout
Also, mixing the train with First Class coaches and sleepers pushes the costs up by about 150%
You have about half the capacity and extra train weight, as well as operational considerations for sleeper maintenance en-route

 

[EE Type 3]

I get top bunk!!:grin:

 

[support-uk-rail]

Northbound:
+++++++++

PENZANCE^*
----------
Truro^
Plymouth^
Exeter St Davids^
Bristol Temple Meads^
Cardiff Central*^
Crewe^
Blackpool*
Carlisle*
Glasgow*
Fort William*
-----
WICK

Southbound:
+++++++++

WICK
-----
Inverness*
Edinburgh*
Newcastle*
York* (NRM)
Bristol Parkway^
(connecting services for Crewe and Cardiff)
Bristol Temple Meads^
Exeter St Davids^
Plymouth^
Truro^
----------
PENZANCE

^ - Pickup/dropoff points
* - Do something!

How about that for a typical schedule??

 

[Darandio]

Something I would be interested in but can you imagine a sleeper charter with us lot?
No point in any sleeper stock for a start as everyone would be up spending the whole time talking!
A bar would be nice too!

 

[theblackwatch]

Cargo-D/Rail-Blue have a Mk. 3 Sleeper in their fleet. Bear in mind that the reason the CTU/WR got rid of sleepers was they weren't cost effective - a tour with just 3xFOs of passengers required 5 or 6 sleepers, so a tour with only 126 passengers on board was pretty expensive per person.

 

[rail-britain]

Cargo-D/Rail-Blue have a Mk. 3 Sleeper in their fleet

Isn't that sleeper now an on-train support vehicle?
I've also seen another sleeper converted to on-train support, possibly the Royal Scotsman, now used for staff sleeping, stores, and junk

Another cost is that you have to get the empty set from depot to Penzance and on conclusion from Penzance to depot
At least when ICTU operated their LandTour programs, the fleet was based at Bounds Green and most operated from London Kings Cross

 

[First class]

Doesn't have to be from Penzance, but yeh would be expensive. Anyone wana guess a rough fare pp?

Don't Scotrail/FGW have sleeper rolling stock that isn't used? Would they charter it?

I wonder what will happen with all the mk3 sleepers when they need replacing? maybe someone will buy them and use them for charter reasons.

I think it would be quite fun either way, make the lounge car a disco with a nice bar

 

[rail-britain]

Doesn't have to be from Penzance, but yeh would be expensive. Anyone wana guess a rough fare pp?

I can work out a price shortly and post the results

Don't Scotrail/FGW have sleeper rolling stock that isn't used? Would they charter it?

There are some spares, but they are for operational purposes, so there is no chance they would charter them out

I wonder what will happen with all the mk3 sleepers when they need replacing? maybe someone will buy them and use them for charter reasons.

They'll probably be broken up for spares, they are already starting to run out of spare bogies
By the time they are withdrawn they will be life expired

 

[theblackwatch]

Doesn't have to be from Penzance, but yeh would be expensive. Anyone wana guess a rough fare pp?

Don't Scotrail/FGW have sleeper rolling stock that isn't used? Would they charter it?

I wonder what will happen with all the mk3 sleepers when they need replacing? maybe someone will buy them and use them for charter reasons.

I think it would be quite fun either way, make the lounge car a disco with a nice bar

TOCs don't lease coaching stock that they don't use - FGW/FSR have just enough vehicles in their fleet to cover their services and maintenance spares.

Charters aren't charged by the railway per person, they are charged for a train, irrespective of whether you have 5 or 500 people on board - so the cost would vary greatly on how many people you planned to have on board. As a rough figure, you can expect to pay in the region of £20k for a train for a day, so multiply that by however many days and divide by number of passengers...

All of which is totally irrelevant as there isn't a rake of sleepers which can be hired.

 

[support-uk-rail]

I read about Mk1 sleepers becoming extinct, which 11 still in existance.

We need to open a charity for that, use the coaches, and open a sleeper-based railtour company as a RailUKForum consortium

 

[First class]

I think an open access operator would do quite well with a sleeper service, there must be some Motorail stock loitering around in sidings somewhere.

I can't belive that at one point there were sleepers everywhere, now there's next to none.

Tbh, I would actually set up an OAO, theres a few industry people I could team up with, but I have no idea what would be profitable. I always thought that when Liverpool lost their Scotland and Southern XC services, that was a big mistake. Perhaps sleepers from Liverpool-Wick via ECML, Liverpool to Portsmouth via Cardiff, Liverpool - Harwich International...

Motorail could even be revived, there would probably be some goverment grant for getting cars of the road...

If anyone wants to set up a OAO TOC, then I would be glad to hear from you

 

[support-uk-rail]

I'm interested in setting up an OAO TOC

 

[rail-britain]

There were plans for an Open Access MotoRail operator between Glasgow and London
The application was made in 2005 but there has been nothing since
Their proposed service was three services in each direction each week

They then applied for a Glasgow - Liverpool service, and again nothing since

 

[jopsuk]

Motorail could even be revived, there would probably be some goverment grant for getting cars of the road...

The main issue with motorail would be, I guess, the lack of facilities. Whilst I guess Penzance and Paddington would still be fine, Stirling, Edinburgh Waverly and St Austell (to pick three I know) have all been redeveloped and completely lost theirs since the motorail services to them ended. this (found via another thread) shows all the destinations that had motorail facilities in 1972- for services to the North, "London" was Kensington Olympia. How many of those stations have even remnants of their old facility?

 

[theblackwatch]

I read about Mk1 sleepers becoming extinct, which 11 still in existance.

I'm pleased to see someone reads what I write in the press!

I actually thought there were 12 left, but then it was found one of those had been scarpped last year.

 

[First class]

There were plans for an Open Access MotoRail operator between Glasgow and London
The application was made in 2005 but there has been nothing since
Their proposed service was three services in each direction each week

They then applied for a Glasgow - Liverpool service, and again nothing since

Yeah, Glasgow Trains, part of the same people behind WSRC. I even heard suggestions of 180/222s doing it. Apparantly network rail got them tied up in red tape if I remember rightly.. (http://www.renaissancetrains.com/glasgow-trains.html)

I have certainly looked into creating a OAO in the past, was suggested that Parry People Movers were used on the Helsby-Ellesmere Port branch in Cheshire. The ORR was really supportive and even publish a pack with info + relevant forms and documentation. Even got ATOC asking about staff travel... It's not expensive registering as a TOC- but the paths & op. costs are.

The problem isn't really the money as far as I can tell, mainly available paths and competition clauses etc... A sleeper OAO would have problems securing rolling stock unless was new build.

I think it would be an excellent venture anyway, trénhotel, (Paris-Madrid), has a great service going, so why not an international sleeper from Scotland??

When the WCML franchise comes up for grabs, the competition clauses expire, so I am assuming daytime rail services may start to appear from OAOs...

And, when Scotrail's Mk3s expire, I think I will be very interested in aquring these for preservation/charter purposes...

 

[rail-britain]

And, when Scotrail's Mk3s expire, I think I will be very interested in aquring these for preservation/charter purposes...

You will need new bogies then for them
The main problem with sleepers is the cost per passenger, ScotRail Sleepers don't make any money and they had the operation dumped on them as part of the franchise, as VT didn't want it!

 

[First class]

You will need new bogies then for them
The main problem with sleepers is the cost per passenger, ScotRail Sleepers don't make any money and they had the operation dumped on them as part of the franchise, as VT didn't want it!

Easier getting new rolling stock I guess. I thought that they were doing alright in terms of making money... I wonder if it will last much longer then???

I would estimate the Scotrail fleet is fine until 2015, but certainly wouldn't mind a bit of a restoration project like that. After all, they'll be pretty dirt cheap... would be nice to keep on some private sidings I've got access to. Should be getting some Northern Rail leases to ex-station buildings soon as well

Any ideas whether new sleeper stock is likely to arrive or will the service just terminate entirely? I'm fairly sure FGW service will go much sooner.

I'm quite serious in terms of OAOs, its a project I really would like to see happen, and I would be very glad to hear ideas for services/routes rather than negatives regarding money...

 

[rail-britain]

It's almost impossible for the sleepers to make money, even with full occupancy
It's more a loss leading product, bringing customers to/from Scotland where in most cases they travel onwards on other FSR services

As above, new sleepers are very unlikely as day train journey times decrease and budget airline fares make the same journey almost the same cost and more convenient

In terms of starting up another OAO you really need to find a route that can pretty much guarantee loadings between 75 and 100% and almost from day one, as well as reliability and fare flexibility

Some routes to consider :
Glasgow - Carlisle - Nottingham
Aberdeen - Dundee - Liverpool - North Wales

 

[support-uk-rail]

I'm pleased to see someone reads what I write in the press!

I actually thought there were 12 left, but then it was found one of those had been scarpped last year.

I'm pleased to see someone pleased with what I'm doing!

 

[First class]

It's almost impossible for the sleepers to make money, even with full occupancy
It's more a loss leading product, bringing customers to/from Scotland where in most cases they travel onwards on other FSR services

As above, new sleepers are very unlikely as day train journey times decrease and budget airline fares make the same journey almost the same cost and more convenient

In terms of starting up another OAO you really need to find a route that can pretty much guarantee loadings between 75 and 100% and almost from day one, as well as reliability and fare flexibility

Some routes to consider :
Glasgow - Carlisle - Nottingham
Aberdeen - Dundee - Liverpool - North Wales

I have created a very rough timetable and route for a potential OAO sleeper... (currently Southbound only ready...)

Can view it here http://stethomson.com/Documents/Sleeper%20ABD-HHD.pdf

Would be nice to get feedback...

 

[support-uk-rail]

Looks good -

OAO stands for Open Access Operator yes?

 

[rail-britain]

I don't know if there any facilities to clean coaches and sleepers at either Liverpool (Edge Hill) or Holyhead
Obviously Aberdeen wouldn't be a problem

 

[laseandre]

I think maybe extend the Liverpool vacate time to 0545, giving round about the same time to get out.

 

[First class]

Looks good -

OAO stands for Open Access Operator yes?

Yeah, OAO = Open Access Operator.

There should be reasonable cleaning/prep facilities at Holyhead, at least they could easily be implemeted, at Liverpool, (Edge Hill), possibly a bit more difficult, probably workable.

The problem with the extended vacate time for Liverpool is that a Virgin ECS movement occupies two of the long platforms at Lime Street, followed by an EMT 4-car 158, so you need to be out of Lime Street fairly quickly.

The paths at that time of night are fairly cheap, (relative to day costs), but obviously some lines come under possessions at night for engineering, and I am struggling to find a diversionary route for North Wales Coast.

Another alternative seeing as I'm talking 2014/2015, is to have all of the train go to Liverpool, arriving earlier, reverse out and go down the Halton Curve towards Chester>Holyhead, not sure this is particularly practical though...

 

[1D53]

I don't know if there any facilities to clean coaches and sleepers at either Liverpool (Edge Hill) or Holyhead
Obviously Aberdeen wouldn't be a problem

Northern send units overnight for cleaning/tanking at Edge Hill so Sleepers could probably be done there as well.

 

[First class]

Well I am going to speak to everyone I can possibly think off regarding this service, Scotrail will probably withdraw their service soon anyway, so at least the stock is potentially available before it life-expires.

I'm still keen on the Motorail idea, but as was suggested previously, doesn't seem able to work, would be good for going to Ireland via Holyhead though...