Charter Sleepers

[support-uk-rail]

Someone needs to get a trampoline out and prepare for the downfall of Night Riviera and Caledonian Sleeper, which, I predict, will die soon. FGW are only continueing their service due to a franchise agreement/commitment.

 

[Crompton Karl]

Even once they go there will be plently of opportunity to travel overnight in Europe, Overnight trains are becomming more popular again outside of domestic French Market and you can get sleepers between most major international cities, some with en suite WC and Shower facilities. All very plush.

The problem with the UK is the fact that in distance the journey is hardly worth travelling on a sleeper. But i wonder if it may encounter some type of renaisance when as the fuel prices are seemingly set to stay high and low cost flights bite the dust.

Karl

 

[support-uk-rail]

Even once they go there will be plently of opportunity to travel overnight in Europe, Overnight trains are becomming more popular again outside of domestic French Market and you can get sleepers between most major international cities, some with en suite WC and Shower facilities. All very plush.

The problem with the UK is the fact that in distance the journey is hardly worth travelling on a sleeper. But i wonder if it may encounter some type of renaisance when as the fuel prices are seemingly set to stay high and low cost flights bite the dust.

Karl

Absolutely. Distances like London-Scotland are too knackering by train during day, but too short for a decent sleeper. We've got our urban areas in bad relation to each other

 

[williamn]

I think the sleepers are safe for the next 5 or so years as a minimum. There was a huge amount of fuss kicked up at the potential axing of the both Fort William and Penzance sleepers recently, and both have done well out of the associated publicity. Both FGW and FSR have also invested in the fleet recently, and the Scotrail Sleeper has been marketed quite a bit too. I think we can still enjoy them for a while!

You would think there would be a market for a SW to Scotland sleeper though.

 

[support-uk-rail]

True. But FGW are still losing a lot of money apparently.

I think (but couldn't assure you), in the South West, it was the MPs that pushed for the sleepers to be put into the franchise commitment agreement - them often using the services themselves for connections to London. It's local pressure that keeps these, whilst not profitable, but vital services going - like rail user groups.

 

[support-uk-rail]

Back to the initial issue of chartering a sleeper, perhaps everyone should just make a booking on Night Riviera and then Caledonian Sleeper - I'm sure we can all find something to do in London for a day.

 

[class 313]

The main issue with motorail would be, I guess, the lack of facilities. Whilst I guess Penzance and Paddington would still be fine, Stirling, Edinburgh Waverly and St Austell (to pick three I know) have all been redeveloped and completely lost theirs since the motorail services to them ended. this (found via another thread) shows all the destinations that had motorail facilities in 1972- for services to the North, "London" was Kensington Olympia. How many of those stations have even remnants of their old facility?

Kensington Olympia still does(ish)

 

[djw1981]

Scotrail will probably withdraw their service soon anyway, so at least the stock is potentially available before it life-expires.

Evidence? The FSr sleeper is used a lot by scottish politicians...who will be unhappy to lose it, and though TS does the franchise all the Westminster Politicos have colleagues in Scotland.....

The motorail siding at Edinburgh is mostly unused and is still road connected.

Northbound:
+++++++++

PENZANCE^*
----------
Truro^
Plymouth^
Exeter St Davids^
Bristol Temple Meads^
Cardiff Central*^
Crewe^
Blackpool*
Carlisle*
Glasgow*
Fort William*
-----
WICK

Is it flying, or Road Trailer from Fort William to Wick......and would Preston not be better than Blackpool, and just run a shuttle 153 from Blackpool to Preston.

 

[First class]

Evidence? The FSr sleeper is used a lot by scottish politicians...who will be unhappy to lose it, and though TS does the franchise all the Westminster Politicos have colleagues in Scotland.....

The motorail siding at Edinburgh is mostly unused and is still road connected.


Is it flying, or Road Trailer from Fort William to Wick......and would Preston not be better than Blackpool, and just run a shuttle 153 from Blackpool to Preston.

Ok... the FSR sleeper does not make very much money at all, in fact, I am pretty sure revenue generated does not even cover operational costs of it, so they are working at a loss. I think somebody even mentioned on this forum that it isn't actually part of the FSR franchise, but took it from Virgin, as they didn't want it.

I like the Motorail idea, but I still like the ABD-HHD & LIV idea, particularly with the ferry connections to Ireland (HHD) /IOM (LIV). There is a draft timetable link somewhere on this thread.

 

[rail-britain]

During privitisation the West Coast sleeper service was supposed to be included in the West Coast Trains franchise
However, it was decided at the last minute to include it with the ScotRail franchise, so that the West Coast Trains franchise was more "profitable" and a premium rate would be more achievable

 

[djw1981]

Ok... the FSR sleeper does not make very much money at all, in fact, I am pretty sure revenue generated does not even cover operational costs of it, so they are working at a loss. I think somebody even mentioned on this forum that it isn't actually part of the FSR franchise, but took it from Virgin, as they didn't want it.

I like the Motorail idea, but I still like the ABD-HHD & LIV idea, particularly with the ferry connections to Ireland (HHD) /IOM (LIV). There is a draft timetable link somewhere on this thread.

Yes it run at a loss (like many services) and is subsidised by TS and farebox. The same is true of many franchises. Your point? For as long as it remains in the franchise specification, it must run. Politicians have a say in the writing of the specification.

 

[First class]

Yes it run at a loss (like many services) and is subsidised by TS and farebox. The same is true of many franchises. Your point? For as long as it remains in the franchise specification, it must run. Politicians have a say in the writing of the specification.

Politicians do have a say. Not always listened to.

The chancellor has the FINAL say... and he doesn't seem to like trains... The DfT care about profit, not passengers. The government will only go so far with financially backing a poor service. Politicians care about stations being closed, i.e. Eutruria, and yet they close anyway...

 

[djw1981]

The UK Chancellor doesn't tell TS what to do really...the Scottish Finance Secretary may do.....

 

[rail-britain]

The UK Chancellor doesn't tell TS what to do really...the Scottish Finance Secretary may do.....

The Scottish Finance Secretary gets his budget from the Chancellor
Talk about taking the cake and spreading it around a bit
It used to go from the Chancellor to the Scottish Office, without any negotiation just Here you go that's what you are getting

 

[djw1981]

Yes but IIRC Uk Gov't are not allowed to tell the the Holyrood Ministers what to spend it on. There are some areas which are linked - e.g. punlic sector pensions etc, but in terms of the proportion to be spent on each dept and the nitty gritty of departmental funding, that is up to each Cabinet Secretary, upon advice of officials, and in keeping with the Government manifesto commitments, parliamentary votes and sometimes public opinion (well they are politicians).

 

[rail-britain]

Yip, that's pretty much how it works
The Scottish Finance Department put in for how much they want
The Chancellor then says what money they will actually get

 

[djw1981]

With ref to the Sleepers, it is TS who will decide the specification of the Scotrail Franchise, and the sleepers are in it until 2014, so we have at least 6 more years of them.

 

[rail-britain]

Although they are specified in the franchise, for operation, FSR (as well as any other TOC) can renegotiate if there are goods reasons to do so
Lets' say for example there was a fire which destroyed an entire rake of sleepers or passenger numbers fell by 25%, then the entire operation would have to be renegotiated
Although the FSR franchise now extends to 2014, my understanding is that the sleeper contract only currently extends to 2011, it is still a separate component

 

[First class]

I am very much in favour of having the sleeper service there... but I can fully understand the need to stem losses. If you don't fare rises and sub-standard service becomes the norm.

Some days, the sleeper is empty, especially up to FTW. I also think that they could probably save money by running the ABD & INV sections as one and avoiding the Highland Mainline. I've gotten all the sleepers in the UK, and continue to regularly use them for leisure... very few passengers board on the mainline, I think there is more demand going via Aberdeen.

The sleeper contract can expire in 2011, so there's about 2 years left with them. I don't think we will see a complete withdrawal, maybe Fort William will be axed, and the lowland sleepers may go. Inverness & Aberdeen are probably far enough away to be saved.

Does anyone know whether their sleeper stock is leased from a rosco, or whether they own it out right?

Back to my original point about charter sleepers, what traction would you like to see dragging the coaches, assuming my planned timetable works out? ABD-HHD/LIV... Any ideas whether HST power cars could be used?

 

[Burkitt]

On the subject of open access sleepers, it occurs to me that there may be a market for sleepers from both the north and west that connect with the Eurostar at St Pancras. Early morning departures and late night arrivals are great for day trips to Paris or connecting with trans-European services, but impractical if you have a several hour journey to reach London, plus a trek between terminii. A sleeper from Scotland and northern England that connected directly with Eurostar would make such journeys much more feasible. Aiming the service at people who are already planning on taking an international train journey, and therefore both have money and like train travel, would make it easier to market sleeper services than to the more general traveller.
Hopefully the problems with the Nightstar service could be avoided by not taking the stock through the tunnel, and only needing sleeping accommodation not day cars too.

 

[laseandre]

Back to my original point about charter sleepers, what traction would you like to see dragging the coaches, assuming my planned timetable works out? ABD-HHD/LIV... Any ideas whether HST power cars could be used?

You would need to convert the ETH/ETS to work on a three phase supply, like GC had to. You'd also need to find a couple spare power cars as well.

 

[support-uk-rail]

Is it flying, or Road Trailer from Fort William to Wick......and would Preston not be better than Blackpool, and just run a shuttle 153 from Blackpool to Preston.

Isn't that just complicating things???

 

[djw1981]

The point being that Fort William to Wick by rail can only be achieved via Glasgow and Perth/Inverness. So it could not be the same leg of the journey without a days worth of travel between. Mallaig is a terminus, it does not sadly) link to the Kyle branch, even though teh distance is relatively small and thus some maps make it look as if it does.

 

[rail-britain]

The sleeper contract can expire in 2011, so there's about 2 years left with them. I don't think we will see a complete withdrawal, maybe Fort William will be axed, and the lowland sleepers may go. Inverness & Aberdeen are probably far enough away to be saved

There was an attempt to withdraw the Fort William sleeper in the 1990s
However it was met by severe political opposition
The Aberdeen sleeper used to call at Cupar but that stop was removed after the MP for that area reported he no longer used the sleeper!
The Inverness sleeper would still need to travel via Stirling and Aviemore due to the requirement to visit those locations, also to travel via Aberdeen would add about an hour and a half to the Inverness journey time