TfL Suggest Possible DLR New Routes, and Thames Road Crossings Campaign

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm surprised no one has started a thread on this yet...

TfL are proposing - as part of their East of Silvertown road crossings consultation - possible DLR extensions. The most ambitious is a new line running from Ilford to Bexleyheath Town Centre, via Barking, Gallions Reach, Thamesmead and Abbey Wood. The attached image is TfL's plan of the route.

This full line (option 6 as it's called) is not being proposed for building immediately, but as a possible future aspiration to be investigated. TfL have however shortlisted several shorter options for building at the same time as the road crossings:

• Option 1: DLR Gallions Reach-Thamesmead
• Option 3: DLR Barking-Gallions Reach-Thamesmead-Abbey Wood
• Option 2d: Tram Barking-Gallions Reach-Thamesmead-Abbey Wood with spur to Woolwich.

This would all be in conjunction with new road crossings at Gallions Reach and Belvedere. Unfortunately, TfL have also shortlisted the option of just building the two road crossings at Gallions Reach with no new rail.

(And I'll also take the chance of mentioning my own interest - I'm involved with Bexley Against Road Crossings a group that is campaigning to have better public transport as an alternative to road crossings, and which is suggesting several alternatives - including just building the DLR Option 6 straight away instead).

 

[34D]

Interesting. I hope that at least one of these gets built (to include some form of metal rail).

 

[theageofthetra]

Given the transformation of the area around Abbey Wood Station and the copious amount of spare brownfield land around Thamesmead/Belvedere I can see this happening sooner rather than later in conjunction with housing projects.

 

[jopsuk]

How do the DLR plans interact with the possible extension of the Barking Riverside Overground extension to Abbey Wood?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

How do the DLR plans interact with the possible extension of the Barking Riverside Overground extension to Abbey Wood?

TfL have rejected the Overground extension to Abbey Wood on the grounds that the frequency would be limited to 4tph, whereas the DLR can sustain much higher frequencies and so - according to TfL - give greater connectivity.

Personally I can see the logic behind the reasoning in the short term, though I think it's a little short sighted in the long term: It's true that the DLR would greater connectivity for short-ish journeys around Thamesmead, but London does ultimately need a way to make longer orbital journeys by public transport, and that can only be heavy rail. And I rather suspect rising demand will mean that 4tph restriction on the GOBLIN North of Barking will have to be addressed sooner or later anyway.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

And I rather suspect rising demand will mean that 4tph restriction on the GOBLIN North of Barking will have to be addressed sooner or later anyway.

What's the cause of the restriction, lack of available paths?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What's the cause of the restriction, lack of available paths?

I think you are correct - if I recall correctly it's because of the need for 2 freight paths/hour on the main part of the GOBLIN, which restricts passenger paths. I'm not sure whether you could get more paths from signal upgrades, but other than that, to get a higher frequency, you'd need to get the freight trains off the line - which probably means building a new line outside London for the freights - which is going to be expensive, but arguably is something that would be very beneficial to get done irrespective of whether the GOBLIN gets extended South of the Thames.

Also, the extension to Barking Riverside is to be built to accommodate 4tph and will share tracks with the C2C line, so it's possible some additional work would be required there to accommodate more than 4tph.

 

[ScotGG]

DLR is not a great option for south of the Thames compared to London Overground. It would go nowhere really until it reaches Prince Regent/Custom House, but it would still be far quicker for people in Thamesmead to head south to Abbey Wood Crossrail and change, so who would use it to head west?

If London Overground is restricted to 4 an hour then why not a shuttle to Barking instead at higher frequencies? The amount of housing planned would justify it.

DLR to Bexleyheath is a pipe dream. How would it get there?

To be honest I don't see anything happening. If anything does, London Overground is the only decent option.

 

[Clip]

If they were doing the Bexleyheath/Ilford route then they are going to have to make Gallions like Poplar or something.

Plus how are they going to feed it around the new development of flats that are there?

Mind oyu there seems to be some work going on as been to pick up me lass the last couple of nights and theres a patch of land which has now got site offices on it and people working under the back bit of the viaduct behind the station... Not sure if related but she says TfL own that land so...

 

[Nym]

DLR is not a great option for south of the Thames compared to London Overground. It would go nowhere really until it reaches Prince Regent/Custom House, but it would still be far quicker for people in Thamesmead to head south to Abbey Wood Crossrail and change, so who would use it to head west?

If London Overground is restricted to 4 an hour then why not a shuttle to Barking instead at higher frequencies? The amount of housing planned would justify it.

DLR to Bexleyheath is a pipe dream. How would it get there?

To be honest I don't see anything happening. If anything does, London Overground is the only decent option.

Or why not extend the Hammersmith and City Line to Barking Riverside from Barking at it's 8tph rather than using the shorter, LOROL trains?

An add on order for S Stock isn't that hard.

 

[freetoview33]

Or why not extend the Hammersmith and City Line to Barking Riverside from Barking at it's 8tph rather than using the shorter, LOROL trains?

An add on order for S Stock isn't that hard.

This would be a better option at least in the short term surely?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As the final S Stock vehicle rolled off the production line last week, there may be only a very limited time in which to take up any options before the cost per vehicle goes through the roof.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or why not extend the Hammersmith and City Line to Barking Riverside from Barking at it's 8tph rather than using the shorter, LOROL trains?

Presumably as that would require a lot more grade separation, as opposed to none. And the S7s are only 15 metres longer than a 5 car 378.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

DLR is not a great option for south of the Thames compared to London Overground. It would go nowhere really until it reaches Prince Regent/Custom House, but it would still be far quicker for people in Thamesmead to head south to Abbey Wood Crossrail and change, so who would use it to head west?

I think there are advantages of the DLR. TfL's proposal shows 3 DLR stations in Thamesmead, where LOROL would presumably have only one - so the DLR is clearly would put many more people within reach of a station. Also, TfL are claiming a journey time from Abbey Wood to Barking of 13-14 minutes on the DLR; I can't imagine the Overground making that journey in less than 8-9 minutes so from the point of view of interchanging at Barking, DLR seems to be almost as good.

If London Overground is restricted to 4 an hour then why not a shuttle to Barking instead at higher frequencies? The amount of housing planned would justify it.

That's crossed my mind too, although I wonder if a more useful scheme would (hypothetically) be to run trains Abbey Wood - Barking - Fenchurch Street. I'm not sure though what capacity is like into Fenchurch Street, or much work would be required to run more trains along that line.

I would imagine that without doing something like that, then either a DLR line or a LOROL extension to Abbey Wood would result in quite a few more people arriving at Barking wanting to join the already overcrowded C2C trains heading into London. I imagine Nym's proposal for an underground extension would have the same affect - many people wouldn't stay on the underground, they'd change at Barking for the faster C2C trains.

DLR to Bexleyheath is a pipe dream. How would it get there?

The fact that it's being suggested by TfL suggests it's rather more than a pipe dream. According to the proposals, it would probably be in a tunnel from Thamesmead onwards. Some kind of rail link to Bexleyheath town centre is certainly needed - it is a huge shopping centre with no rail access and massive regular congestion in the roads leading to it.

 

[Busaholic]

If light rail is seen as the solution, presumably as much on cost grounds as anything else, then I think it should be seen as a different system from DLR, unless it is to be achieved by an extension of the Beckton line. Ilford via Barking to some new settlement close to the northern bank of the Thames in the Dagenham area was proposed as a tram route by John Prescott's ministry in the Blair government, but as with anything associated with him, it came to nothing. Ilford to Bexleyheath would be possible as a tram/light rail route, though it could quite quickly get overloaded if the amount of new housing both north and south of the river comes to meet current predictions. Overground Barking to Bexleyheath would be better imo, the tie-in to the Goblin Line notwithstanding. Then a tram line Barking to Ilford to connect with Crossrail or, as I've posted on other threads, a trolleybus route between the two towns not just because it used to have this but it is the ideal situation to re-try this form of transportation and would save a lot of the inevitable disruption construction of a new tramline brings.

 

[rebmcr]

I would imagine that without doing something like that, then either a DLR line or a LOROL extension to Abbey Wood would result in quite a few more people arriving at Barking wanting to join the already overcrowded C2C trains heading into London.

Well no, they'd go to Abbey Wood to get a seat on a freshly-terminated Crossrail train.

 

[fandroid]

DLR is a huge success. As a feeder to Crossrail south of the river it would be great. Is problem is that any new line would have to connect to an existing line to access a depot. Is there no scope for an extension from Woolwich Arsenal. That solves the problem of having to build a new river crossing. It is unlikely to overload that branch further in to London as most new journeys would be feeders to local rail stations.

 

[Clip]

Woolwich Arsenal points in the wrong direction to go towards Thamesmead itself. There is going to be a new depot at Beckton built even after the current extension on the land once it buys it from National power/British Gas but the problem at the moment so IU hear is that Newham want that land for more housing so its who gets it first.

 

[Busaholic]

Woolwich Arsenal points in the wrong direction to go towards Thamesmead itself. There is going to be a new depot at Beckton built even after the current extension on the land once it buys it from National power/British Gas but the problem at the moment so IU hear is that Newham want that land for more housing so its who gets it first.

An extension to Welling and Sidcup would provide interchange with the Bexleyheath and (obviously) Sidcup lines to Dartford and provide a station for Blackfen into the bargain. Would there be room though for all the commuters wishing to access East London on a 3-coach train?

 

[Clip]

An extension to Welling and Sidcup would provide interchange with the Bexleyheath and (obviously) Sidcup lines to Dartford and provide a station for Blackfen into the bargain. Would there be room though for all the commuters wishing to access East London on a 3-coach train?

That's not the market they're trying to tap though and even with the new trains they're getting I doubt more people from those areas would be able to fit on too.

 

[Busaholic]

That's not the market they're trying to tap though and even with the new trains they're getting I doubt more people from those areas would be able to fit on too.

I'm sure they wouldn't be able to find space, except at the expense of existing passengers. Both DLR and East London Line are now at capacity (and beyond) in the most part, with no scope for yet longer trains and no room on the spines for extra services. Tinkering around is the best that can be done, with the exception of the changes to travel patterns that will occur with Crossrail and may free up some capacity for a while on the Woolwich Arsenal DLR route.

 

[exile]

Thamesmead has been waiting for a rail service for 1/2 a century!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I'm sure they wouldn't be able to find space, except at the expense of existing passengers. Both DLR and East London Line are now at capacity (and beyond) in the most part, with no scope for yet longer trains and no room on the spines for extra services. Tinkering around is the best that can be done, with the exception of the changes to travel patterns that will occur with Crossrail and may free up some capacity for a while on the Woolwich Arsenal DLR route.

Would the introduction of moving block with full ERTMS allow any more capacity to be squeezed out of the ELL?

 

[D365]

Would the introduction of moving block with full ERTMS allow any more capacity to be squeezed out of the ELL?

Surely an ATO overlay is essential for 24tph. Or conversion back to London Underground

 

[Clip]

I'm sure they wouldn't be able to find space, except at the expense of existing passengers. Both DLR and East London Line are now at capacity (and beyond) in the most part, with no scope for yet longer trains and no room on the spines for extra services. Tinkering around is the best that can be done, with the exception of the changes to travel patterns that will occur with Crossrail and may free up some capacity for a while on the Woolwich Arsenal DLR route.

Yeah the DLR are trying to provide more capacity wiht more trains on the WOA route at the expense of the Beckton services and cutting the STA <> CAW trains to 2 vehicles vice 3 and running more of them.

With their new order being for fixed formation trains they should be abel to get more capacity from that but they are expecting CR to take a lot of custom at the start but be back up to nromal levels about 2 years after it opens wo will have to order more and more trains if they want to open a new branch anywhere.

I dont think the ELL can do anymore on the southern part of it unless they take over the erm Southern services and theoretically have SR trains stop at Norwood junction and New cross gate but that wont work as no paths on the fast to do so.

 

[Busaholic]

Yeah the DLR are trying to provide more capacity wiht more trains on the WOA route at the expense of the Beckton services and cutting the STA <> CAW trains to 2 vehicles vice 3 and running more of them.

With their new order being for fixed formation trains they should be abel to get more capacity from that but they are expecting CR to take a lot of custom at the start but be back up to nromal levels about 2 years after it opens wo will have to order more and more trains if they want to open a new branch anywhere.

I dont think the ELL can do anymore on the southern part of it unless they take over the erm Southern services and theoretically have SR trains stop at Norwood junction and New cross gate but that wont work as no paths on the fast to do so.

I'd like to see a travellator built between New Cross Gate and New Cross, then abandonment of the New Cross stub altogether and the trains diverted to the Palace. That's put the cat among the pigeons!

 

[Clip]

I'd like to see a travellator built between New Cross Gate and New Cross, then abandonment of the New Cross stub altogether and the trains diverted to the Palace. That's put the cat among the pigeons!

Ooh there would be uproar!!!

 

[yorkie]

Yeah the DLR are trying to provide more capacity wiht more trains on the WOA route at the expense of the Beckton services and cutting the STA <> CAW trains to 2 vehicles vice 3 and running more of them.

I'm looking at a map trying to work out what WOA, STA and CAW mean.

Could WOA somehow be Woolwich Arsenal? STA can't be Stratford or Stratford Intl because they already have codes. CAW could be Canning Town?

If there's some internal coding system, then it would make sense to DLR staff, but I don't think they're public-facing, unlike National Rail codes.

Could you clarify please? Thanks!

 

[MikeWh]

I'm looking at a map trying to work out what WOA, STA and CAW mean.

Could WOA somehow be Woolwich Arsenal? STA can't be Stratford or Stratford Intl because they already have codes. CAW could be Canning Town?

If there's some internal coding system, then it would make sense to DLR staff, but I don't think they're public-facing, unlike National Rail codes.

Could you clarify please? Thanks!

Can't comment on authenticity, but knowledge of the system tells me that:

WOA = Woolwich Arsenal
STA = Stratford
CAW = Canary Wharf

 

[Clip]

Apologies for writing them like that but as MikeWh had said