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CAF rolling stock confirmed for Arriva

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HSTEd

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A manual jumper? Hardly ideal. It reduces operational flexibility if drivers can't couple and uncouple stuff themselves at stations.
I am referring to the idea that essentially all locomotives on American rails are all compatible with each other. Not that a manual jumper is best.

It might be expensive to make them wire-compatible, though, particularly if they differ in braking systems - for one example, Voyagers use a traditional air-brake and thus would be very difficult to make compatible with a Westcode DMU. (They can, however, couple dead to Pendolinos or indeed pull a dead Pendolino because both have traditional air brakes).
At worst its a microcontroller of automotive-grading with some relays.
Not that catastrophic on this multi million pound vehicle.

And if they are mechanical transmission, which I think is quite likely, having one coupled to a hydraulic transmission unit might not do it any good.

The Pacers and Class 172s did/do alright though. It is unlikely it would actually damage the transmission - just the engine might operate slightly out of its optimum power band some of the time.
 
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TH172341

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And if they are mechanical transmission, which I think is quite likely, having one coupled to a hydraulic transmission unit might not do it any good.

Mechanical transmission should be ok with 170s - Chiltern use their 172s coupled up to the 168s on certain diagrams and don't experience issues. Not confident on anything else - remember a few 153s being coupled up to LM 172s in the early days but doesn't happen now (no surprise considering the 153s already get wheelflats due to running in tow of 170s...)
 
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Philip Phlopp

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Especially as it wouldn't be very expensive at all to put Sprinter compatible couplings on them - but we all know that is never going to happen.

It would be wise of CAF to wire the DMU stock in such a way as to provide compatibility with the Sprinter fleet, if the running gear is the same as the NIR Class 4000, then it's the same as the Bombardier Class 172, and that's a unit that is compatible with Sprinters and Turbostars, so there's nothing insurmountable there, though it would be dependent on power and brake controllers chosen.

There's not going to be a complete fleet replacement anywhere in the same way the Siemens Desiro fleet was ordered for TransPennine to replace everything else, CAF could do well in having a BSI fitted, Sprinter compatible unit which can be added in batches for other franchises.
 

Rick1984

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01zona_polivalente.jpg

This would be quite cool on Northern Connect trains.
Never going to happen with space at such a premium though.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Just a couple of questions about this order, that those more informed than myself may know:

(a) There was a mention upthread of disappointment that the new stock won't be constructed in the UK, but remembering the set-to when the Thameslink contract was announced it was revealed that the Siemens bid had more UK content (through the supply chain) than the rival Bombardier bid. I assume similar information will be revealed in time.

(b) If I remember correctly the 333s were delivered by rail, any idea of how the new sets will be delivered? I'd guess delivery by rail will only be feasible if the CAF plant has access to the Spanish High Speed network (which is standard guage), so perhaps delivery by sea to Southampton or Liverpool will be more likely if this isn't the case.
 

Bevan Price

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I hope they don't do anything stupid like waste space on first class - that will only make overcrowding worse than now.
 

jon0844

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The Mirror has put the 'scandal' of not giving the contract to Bombardier on the front page, so surely they did bid?

If they didn't bid, it's not exactly a scandal that we're getting the trains built elsewhere!
 

RichmondCommu

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The Mirror has put the 'scandal' of not giving the contract to Bombardier on the front page, so surely they did bid?

If they didn't bid, it's not exactly a scandal that we're getting the trains built elsewhere!

Today their headline was the Royal Navy potentially buying steel for its new Frigates from overseas and as a result the Tories not giving the steel industry a life line so I think there is a theme running here.
 

47802

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Just a couple of questions about this order, that those more informed than myself may know:

(a) There was a mention upthread of disappointment that the new stock won't be constructed in the UK, but remembering the set-to when the Thameslink contract was announced it was revealed that the Siemens bid had more UK content (through the supply chain) than the rival Bombardier bid. I assume similar information will be revealed in time.

.

Maybe not, could be very little UK content, remember the Thameslink order was placed by a public body (DFT) while Arriva is a private company.
 

jon0844

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Today their headline was the Royal Navy potentially buying steel for its new Frigates from overseas and as a result the Tories not giving the steel industry a life line so I think there is a theme running here.
BBC paper review talking about it now. Bombardier being called a British company by the guy from the Evening Standard. And saying we invented the railways, and it hurts British jobs etc.

I can't help but feel we've been here before. No doubt my Facebook will be full of posts from people deriding the Government in the coming days, a petition being set up, a press release from the RMT echoing the same thing...
 

47802

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Today their headline was the Royal Navy potentially buying steel for its new Frigates from overseas and as a result the Tories not giving the steel industry a life line so I think there is a theme running here.

Indeed they talk about the CAF order ruling out the use of British Steel which is interesting considering that Derby built units have Aluminium bodyshells:lol:

Interestingly though it does say that Bombardier did bid for the contract
 
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Philip

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Why is Hadfield/Glossop being mentioned as a route to put new CAF trains on? Surely a 319 is sufficient enough? I think it's fairly realistic to expect the 3-car units to be allocated to Yorkshire, with the small fleet of 4-car units being used for the limited number of North West Connect EMU services.

For NW commuter and 'Connect' (inter-urban) EMU services:

Man Airport to Blackpool: 4-car CAF (5 diagrams total - 1 unit included for strengthening)
Hazel Grove to Preston: 4-car 319
Man Vic to Blackpool: 4-car 319
Stalybridge/Man Vic to Wigan NW via Bolton: 4-car 319
Man Airport to Wigan NW via Chat Moss: 4-car 319 (if it isn't part of the Barrow service)
Man Pic to Man Airport/Alderley/Crewe: 4-car 319
Man Pic to Hadfield/Glossop: 4-car 319
Man Airport to Liverpool via Chat Moss: 4-car 319
Man Pic to Macclesfield/Stoke: 4-car 319
Liverpool to Wigan/Warrington stopper: 4-car 319
Liverpool to Blackpool North: 4-car CAF (5 diagrams total - 1 unit included for strengthening)

That would mean 10 out of 12 4-car CAF units in service per day, the other 2 left for maintenance. Sounds doable. We don't know when Windermere will be electrified, if at all, so best to cross that bridge when we come to it.
 
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HSTEd

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BBC paper review talking about it now. Bombardier being called a British company by the guy from the Evening Standard. And saying we invented the railways, and it hurts British jobs etc.

I can't help but feel we've been here before. No doubt my Facebook will be full of posts from people deriding the Government in the coming days, a petition being set up, a press release from the RMT echoing the same thing...

If I had my way of course there would be an arm of the railway building trains to a handful of standard template designs.
One DMU family, one normal EMU family and one high speed family.
 

WatcherZero

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The issue is the requirement for high acceleration to slot between the Virgin services on the congested lines through Stockport.

Arriva have already confirmed the new 4 car units will be used on Man Pic-Airport services after a brief period of 319's.
 

Philip

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The issue is the requirement for high acceleration to slot between the Virgin services on the congested lines through Stockport.

Arriva have already confirmed the new 4 car units will be used on Man Pic-Airport services after a brief period of 319's.


Which Man Pic-Airport services? 12 EMUs wouldn't cover all the electric diagrams between Piccadilly and the Airport, if we assume Man Airport to Blackpool will be of the 4-car variant.

As for the NW DMU Commuter and Connect routes:

Man Airport to Barrow via Chat Moss: 3-car CAF
Sheffield to Blackpool North via Hazel Grove: 3-car CAF
Man Vic to Clitheroe: 2-car CAF
Man Airport to Bradford/Leeds: 4-car CAF (2x2)
Liverpool to Bradford/Leeds: 4-car CAF (2x2)
Chester to Leeds: 3-car CAF
Southport to Leeds: doubled up Sprinters or Turbostars?
Blackpool to York: 3-car CAF
Man Airport to Liverpool via CLC: 4-car CAF (2x2)
Man Pic to Sheffield stopper: doubled up Sprinters
Man Pic to Chester stopper: doubled up Sprinters
Man Pic to Buxton: doubled up Sprinters
Man Vic to Blackburn via Bolton and via Rochdale: doubled up Sprinters

All other shorter commuter services around the NW should use the remaining Sprinters.

Bit more difficult to work out the DMU allocations.
 
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fgwrich

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BBC paper review talking about it now. Bombardier being called a British company by the guy from the Evening Standard. And saying we invented the railways, and it hurts British jobs etc.

I can't help but feel we've been here before. No doubt my Facebook will be full of posts from people deriding the Government in the coming days, a petition being set up, a press release from the RMT echoing the same thing...

Indeed they talk about the CAF order ruling out the use of British Steel which is interesting considering that Derby built units have Aluminium bodyshells:lol:

Interestingly though it does say that Bombardier did bid for the contract

If you want a laugh, here is the article. Nice choice of rolling stock on the front cover too - a good old British Rail Class 142. Well, what do you want? New high quality rolling stock or the laughing stock. Sorry British Built Pacer.

It's going to be the ''british'' Bombardier vs Siemens all over again. :roll:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/another-betrayal-britains-steel-new-7229412
 

61653 HTAFC

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If you want a laugh, here is the article. Nice choice of rolling stock on the front cover too - a good old British Rail Class 142. Well, what do you want? New high quality rolling stock or the laughing stock. Sorry British Built Pacer.

It's going to be the ''british'' Bombardier vs Siemens all over again. :roll:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/another-betrayal-britains-steel-new-7229412

At least the commenters have wasted no time in pointing out those errors! And to think normally I'd advise against reading the comments on any news article...
 

RobShipway

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Where does that leave the 333s - I think its decreed in some contract that they cannot be removed from Leeds/West-Yorkshire. Otherwise makes sense and the 321s+322 could join their class mates elsewhere in the UK. That would get rid of a few non-standard EMUs ion Northern.

Just a rash thought - could the 333s go to Heathrow Connect thus releasing the 360s for C2C ?.

The Heathrow Connect services will be taken over by Crossrail who will be using their class 345 Adventra's, so the class 360's would likely to move to join their counterparts at Abellio Greater Anglia.

I think the class 333's will remain in Yorkshire.
 
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andyb2706

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Why is Hadfield/Glossop being mentioned as a route to put new CAF trains on? Surely a 319 is sufficient enough? I think it's fairly realistic to expect the 3-car units to be allocated to Yorkshire, with the small fleet of 4-car units being used for the limited number of North West Connect EMU services.

Don't you think it is a bit of overkill sending all the 3-car trains to Yorkshire. Bear in mind they are keeping their class 333 (16 units) which would mean they would have a total of 47 units to work services now that are covered by only 24 units? Even taking into account that some of the Airdale trains are to be double units. If they have any sense seeing the 333 are a joint CAF/Siemens unit they would make them compatible with each other. With so many units based at Leeds how many of them would be sat around doing nothing, would that not be a waste of money?

It is more likely the 3-car emu's will be split between the two.

It was announced a few months back that when the 323's are lost the Hadfield line will be operated by the 319's on a short term basis until the delivery of the new 4-car emus.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which Man Pic-Airport services? 12 EMUs wouldn't cover all the electric diagrams between Piccadilly and the Airport, if we assume Man Airport to Blackpool will be of the 4-car variant.

The hourly all stations Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport that is currently run by a 319!!!! Before you say they can leave the 319 on this service they will need the faster acceleration trains for the stations on the Styal line as it is likely that the service to Manchester Airport is set to increase over the next few years. Hence why the 3-car EMU's will be spilt between Leeds and Manchester.
 
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northwichcat

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The Airport stopper is 1 diagram, unless the claim they will get 4 car applies to the Crewe services.

Arriva have confirmed new 4 car for Glossop, presumably if they are 23m carriages it's to reduce overcrowding as the 319s won't provide any real extra capacity over a 323 once the accessibilty mods are done.

Philip doesn't seem to have kept up with the proposed service revisions on non-Northern Connect routes. The Chester to Manchester via Altrincham stopper is supposed to become a semi-fast with a new Greenbank to Manchester stopper, with similar scanerios applying to the Buxton and Stoke routes as well.
 

Philip

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The Airport stopper is 1 diagram, unless the claim they will get 4 car applies to the Crewe services.

Arriva have confirmed new 4 car for Glossop, presumably if they are 23m carriages it's to reduce overcrowding as the 319s won't provide any real extra capacity over a 323 once the accessibilty mods are done.

Philip doesn't seem to have kept up with the proposed service revisions on non-Northern Connect routes. The Chester to Manchester via Altrincham stopper is supposed to become a semi-fast with a new Greenbank to Manchester stopper, with similar scanerios applying to the Buxton and Stoke routes as well.

The Chester will still be, in effect, a slow service with just not as many stops as current. It certainly isn't becoming a fast express service and hence that's why Sprinters will be adequate. End of the day if you want a fast service to Stoke or Chester then you take a Virgin/Cross Country to Stoke and a Llandudno service to Chester. It's more the case with Chester because of the low speed of the CLC route, with Warrington route much faster.

It's baffling that ATW want to make the Stoke service faster, when passengers already have the choice of 4 express trains per hour to Stoke and 2 to Macclesfield. Northern should focus on an increased service frequency for the intermediate stations en route, not skipping stops. Same applies to Chester via CLC; apart from perhaps Ashley and Plumley, both services (Greenbank and Chester) should be all stops.
 
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edwin_m

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Don't you think it is a bit of overkill sending all the 3-car trains to Yorkshire. Bear in mind they are keeping their class 333 (16 units) which would mean they would have a total of 47 units to work services now that are covered by only 24 units? Even taking into account that some of the Airdale trains are to be double units. If they have any sense seeing the 333 are a joint CAF/Siemens unit they would make them compatible with each other. With so many units based at Leeds how many of them would be sat around doing nothing, would that not be a waste of money?

It is more likely the 3-car emu's will be split between the two.

It was announced a few months back that when the 323's are lost the Hadfield line will be operated by the 319's on a short term basis until the delivery of the new 4-car emus.

Just crossed my mind - might the 333s be refurbished with 2+2, tables etc and used on the electric Northern Connect services? All the new EMUs could then be to a higher-density layout for suburban journeys both sides of the Pennines. Are 333s due a refurbishment?
 

northwichcat

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The Chester will still be, in effect, a slow service with just not as many stops as current. It certainly isn't becoming a fast express service and hence that's why Sprinters will be adequate. End of the day if you want a fast service to Stoke or Chester then you take a Virgin/Cross Country to Stoke and a Llandudno service to Chester. It's more the case with Chester because of the low speed of the CLC route, with Warrington route much faster.

It's baffling that ATW want to make the Stoke service faster, when passengers already have the choice of 4 express trains per hour to Stoke and 2 to Macclesfield. Northern should focus on an increased service frequency for the intermediate stations en route, not skipping stops. Same applies to Chester via CLC; apart from perhaps Ashley and Plumley, both services (Greenbank and Chester) should be all stops.

You misunderstand the aim of speeding up services. It's not to get Stoke to Manchester passengers on to Northern services!! There's two things to consider:
1. Faster journeys from places such as Congleton to Manchester. In the case of the Mid-Cheshire line the service does carry a number of people from Chester to Stockport, from where they make connections to other services mainly the Sheffield bound services, which is one reason why a direct Chester to Sheffield service was considered. While speeded up services will allow Arriva to market places such as Buxton and Delamere Forest as being under 1 hour from Manchester by train.
2. Having the new Macclesfield to Manchester service as a semi-fast and keeping the Stoke to Manchester as all stops would likely mean the loadings would be very unbalanced, so reducing calls on the Stoke service and running the Macclesfield service as all stops should help balance out loadings.

The ITT included requirements for extra calls at stations like Mobberley at rush hour and at school/college finishing times. I don't know why you think they need 2tph all day, when some off-peak services stop there without picking up or dropping off a single passenger, yet the same service can get 40 passengers using Knutsford. It doesn't make sense for Mobberley to have the same level of service as Knutsford. Mobberley station isn't even well located to serve the village, the 88 bus route between Wilmslow and Knutsford serves the village better and the bus service is half-hourly and usually operated by 64 reg vehicles with a high specification interior.

With you saying 4 car Sprinters to Chester and Buxton it didn't sound like you realised the ITT requirement for additional off-peak services on both lines. While I hope the more frequent services attract more passengers I don't think quadrupling of capacity is required yet! Buxton will still need some 4 car workings (ideally 4 car 156s) to Manchester in the morning peak and away from Manchester in evening peak, but during the Mon-Fri off-peak period 4 car Sprinters every half-hour to New Mills Newton, on top of the Hazel Grove only services would be overkill.

The Mid-Cheshire will be a bit more complex. On a weekday a mix of 2 and 3 car services together with the service enhancements should provide enough capacity. However, with Chester only getting 1tph on Saturday if there's races on in Chester a 3 car train would be too small, on race days a 4 car 150 can have standing passengers currently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just crossed my mind - might the 333s be refurbished with 2+2, tables etc and used on the electric Northern Connect services? All the new EMUs could then be to a higher-density layout for suburban journeys both sides of the Pennines. Are 333s due a refurbishment?

The 333s will need some kind of refurbishment as they have to meet the latest accessibility requirements and have an interior which has a 'like new' look and feel.

However, I think due to PTE agreements they have to remain serving West Yorkshire until at least mid-2020 and Northern Connect standard trains have to be in place by 1st Jan 2020.
 
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coppercapped

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From the picture, it is assumed no end gangways? Surprising as many services are expected to be 2x3cars.
From informed comments in other threads/other journals it looks as if the latest crash regulations for newly constructed rolling stock have to keep the driver behind the crumple zone in the nose so he/she is further back from the nose and less exposed. As a consequence it is very difficult to design a nose that, on the one hand, meets the collision regulations and on the other hand includes a gangway while also giving the driver good sight lines.

It could be the the days of front end gangways have passed. If one wants to permit passage up and down the train maybe the only solution is to build permanently longer trains - see, e.g., the Thameslink Class 700s. The Siemens Class 380s have a nose with a gangway but, if I understand correctly, they were built under a previous version of the collision regulations.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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From informed comments in other threads/other journals it looks as if the latest crash regulations for newly constructed rolling stock have to keep the driver behind the crumple zone in the nose so he/she is further back from the nose and less exposed. As a consequence it is very difficult to design a nose that, on the one hand, meets the collision regulations and on the other hand includes a gangway while also giving the driver good sight lines.

It could be the the days of front end gangways have passed. If one wants to permit passage up and down the train maybe the only solution is to build permanently longer trains - see, e.g., the Thameslink Class 700s. The Siemens Class 380s have a nose with a gangway but, if I understand correctly, they were built under a previous version of the collision regulations.

Hitachi's AT200s for Scotland have end gangways as currently planned, they're even suggesting they can design the AT200 to meet crash regulations at 125mph. They did change the design between initially confirming they had been selected by Abellio for the ScotRail contract, and confirming sign-off/funding had been arranged though, so they've maybe had difficulties in integrating a crash regulation compatible driving cab with end gangway.
 

coppercapped

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Hitachi's AT200s for Scotland have end gangways as currently planned, they're even suggesting they can design the AT200 to meet crash regulations at 125mph. They did change the design between initially confirming they had been selected by Abellio for the ScotRail contract, and confirming sign-off/funding had been arranged though, so they've maybe had difficulties in integrating a crash regulation compatible driving cab with end gangway.
Interesting, thank you. This is clearly a topic to watch for developments!
 

Philip Phlopp

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Interesting, thank you. This is clearly a topic to watch for developments!

Very much so, as they've been touting drawings with no end gangway.

It's also of minor interest that the signalling engineers working on the EGIP scheme were told to expect vehicles with better visibility than a Class 170, and that Class 156/158 units were the worst case scenario, now it's looking like the Hitachi units may be more compromised on signal sighting, with the driver further back from the front screen and a deeper gangway installed.
 
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